Conservative Political Forum

General Category => Religion Forum => Topic started by: JoReba on January 05, 2013, 01:40:57 PM

Title: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: JoReba on January 05, 2013, 01:40:57 PM
If anyone requests, I can list sixteen proofs for why America was not founded upon so called "Godly Principles."

Essentially, there are mentioned in The Bible none of the "Inalienable Rights" or "Freedoms" stated in America's Founding Documents.  As well, God is never named in America's Founding Documents.  If you disagree with this, then go ahead and state what are America's "Godly Principles."
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Solar on January 05, 2013, 01:50:33 PM
The Declaration of Independence states, "[Men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It also states that these rights are "self evident" and that they constitute the "Laws of Nature." These principles are taken directly from the Bible.

I'll be moving this to the Religion forum.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: JoReba on January 05, 2013, 01:52:30 PM
Quote from: Solar on January 05, 2013, 01:50:33 PM
The Declaration of Independence states, "[Men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It also states that these rights are "self evident" and that they constitute the "Laws of Nature." These principles are taken directly from the Bible.

I'll be moving this to the Religion forum.

If those "Rights" are taken directly from The Bible, then step up with which verses and chapters state them.  We can very quickly find out here if you are right or wrong.

Lol.  Can you do it ... ?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: JustKari on January 05, 2013, 01:55:32 PM
If you have something to say, say it.  The founders said "Creator" for a reason, if you want to fill in Budda, Vetivati, or the spaghetti monster, more power to you.  If you have a point, make it, we are not here to do your homewirk or answer your challenges.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Solar on January 05, 2013, 01:56:38 PM
Quote from: JoReba on January 05, 2013, 01:52:30 PM
If those "Rights" are taken directly from The Bible, then step up with which verses and chapters state them.  We can very quickly find out here if you are right or wrong.

Lol.  Can you do it ... ?
You claimed God was not mentioned, yet Creator is blatantly mentioned giving us unalienable Rights.
The verses you ask for fall under the Ten Commandments.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: taxed on January 05, 2013, 02:53:07 PM
Quote from: Solar on January 05, 2013, 01:56:38 PM
You claimed God was not mentioned, yet Creator is blatantly mentioned giving us unalienable Rights.
The verses you ask for fall under the Ten Commandments.

In his defense, he was a test-tube baby...
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Cryptic Bert on January 05, 2013, 02:56:32 PM
When do I get the 16 proofs I was promised?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: taxed on January 05, 2013, 03:00:23 PM
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 05, 2013, 02:56:32 PM
When do I get the 16 proofs I was promised?
He's still stuck on the whole "Creator" thing...
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 05, 2013, 04:41:04 PM
Is JoReba the poster formerly known as "Patriot"?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Solar on January 05, 2013, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 05, 2013, 04:41:04 PM
Is JoReba the poster formerly known as "Patriot"?
No, I recognize him from a long time back on another forum, posts like a couple of other libs that make claims they can't back up and got booted for it.
Jo has been a member for over a year.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 05, 2013, 04:59:30 PM
Quote from: JoReba on January 05, 2013, 01:40:57 PM
If anyone requests, I can list sixteen proofs for why America was not founded upon so called "Godly Principles."

Essentially, there are mentioned in The Bible none of the "Inalienable Rights" or "Freedoms" stated in America's Founding Documents.  As well, God is never named in America's Founding Documents.  If you disagree with this, then go ahead and state what are America's "Godly Principles."

Only sixteen?  Why don't you just post them then?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Cryptic Bert on January 05, 2013, 05:01:54 PM
Quote from: taxed on January 05, 2013, 03:00:23 PM
He's still stuck on the whole "Creator" thing...

I think he is just stuck on stupid...
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Solar on January 05, 2013, 05:18:26 PM
Quote from: taxed on January 05, 2013, 03:00:23 PM
He's still stuck on the whole "Creator" thing...
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
She hadn't quite thought it through before posing the question.
She's one of those raised in a Religious household and hates her parents for it, to this day.
Knows the Bible front to back, hasn't got a clue about the founding documents outside what she's read at mediamatters, and thinks because were conservatives, were all Religious extremists.

You could say I am stereotyping, but I'm not the one that is clueless about the founding documents or hate my Religious parents. :laugh:
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Shooterman on January 05, 2013, 05:48:06 PM
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 05, 2013, 05:01:54 PM
I think he is just stuck on stupid...

Stupid Beyond Redemption
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Darth Fife on January 05, 2013, 10:03:00 PM
Lets see if this poor old atheist can clear things up...

"There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus' "

Galatians 3:28


Sure sounds like "All Men are created equal" to me!

"Well, then', Jesus said, 'give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God."

Mark 12:17


I think this pretty much equates to the so-called Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

What I like to think of as separation of State and Church

There are many more examples, but, it is getting late...

Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 12:05:29 AM
Quote from: JoReba on January 05, 2013, 01:40:57 PM
If anyone requests, I can list sixteen proofs for why America was not founded upon so called "Godly Principles."

Essentially, there are mentioned in The Bible none of the "Inalienable Rights" or "Freedoms" stated in America's Founding Documents.  As well, God is never named in America's Founding Documents.  If you disagree with this, then go ahead and state what are America's "Godly Principles."

Answer this grasshopper....................

Why does the back of every bill in my wallet say, "In God We Trust"?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 12:22:49 AM
Here's the problem, grasshopper..................

Libs believe that everything good exists within the human realm.

Libs also believe that if they can gain complete control of everything, they can force everyone to be good.

History is not on your side, little bug.

The difference between you and me, is that I realize that perfection can never be attained by a human being...........forced or not.

Jesus is the closest thing to perfection that we will ever know about..................and he wasn't perfect.

THAT WAS THE POINT!!!
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 12:42:56 AM
Damn I yearn for an honest debate with a liberal.

Unfortunately, honest and liberal in the same sentence, is an oxymoron.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 06, 2013, 06:10:28 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 12:22:49 AM
Here's the problem, grasshopper..................

Libs believe that everything good exists within the human realm.

Libs also believe that if they can gain complete control of everything, they can force everyone to be good.

History is not on your side, little bug.

The difference between you and me, is that I realize that perfection can never be attained by a human being...........forced or not.

Jesus is the closest thing to perfection that we will ever know about..................and he wasn't perfect.

I have no idea what you believe, but He could not die for your sins (pay the penalty for His creation) without perfection, as GOD deems perfection.

THAT WAS THE POINT!!!

I have no idea what your beliefs are, but H could not die for your sins without perfection as GOD (not Man) deems perfection.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 06:33:51 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 06, 2013, 06:10:28 AM
I have no idea what your beliefs are, but H could not die for your sins without perfection as GOD (not Man) deems perfection.

Are you saying, that as a human, Jesus was perfect from the day he was born until the day he died? I don't think so.

The point I was making, is that libs think that perfection is attainable in the human realm..................but only if they are in complete control.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 06:58:22 AM
I have my own beliefs, as far as God, Jesus, and the bible go; they don't always fit with traditional religious doctrine.

The biggest difference is; I would never attempt to impose my personal beliefs on others.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Shooterman on January 06, 2013, 07:53:32 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 12:22:49 AM
Here's the problem, grasshopper..................

Libs believe that everything good exists within the human realm.

Libs also believe that if they can gain complete control of everything, they can force everyone to be good.

History is not on your side, little bug.

The difference between you and me, is that I realize that perfection can never be attained by a human being...........forced or not.

Jesus is the closest thing to perfection that we will ever know about..................and he wasn't perfect.

THAT WAS THE POINT!!!

I beg to differ, Kram. If God is perfect, and we, as Christians, are taught he is, then Jesus, God in the form of man, had to be perfect, as well, else His sacrifice on the cross, would have been for naught.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 08:23:25 AM
Quote from: Shooterman on January 06, 2013, 07:53:32 AM
I beg to differ, Kram. If God is perfect, and we, as Christians, are taught he is, then Jesus, God in the form of man, had to be perfect, as well, else His sacrifice on the cross, would have been for naught.

I would never say that His death on the cross was for naught; I do, however, have a difference of opinion on several things involving Christian belief. None of them are provable, or even arguable.

I reserve the right to be wrong. Jesus already took my punishment for it, if I am.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Shooterman on January 06, 2013, 09:30:11 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 08:23:25 AM
I would never say that His death on the cross was for naught; I do, however, have a difference of opinion on several things involving Christian belief. None of them are provable, or even arguable.

I reserve the right to be wrong. Jesus already took my punishment for it, if I am.

If He was not perfect, then it was for naught.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 09:58:54 AM
Quote from: Shooterman on January 06, 2013, 09:30:11 AM
If He was not perfect, then it was for naught.

I'm not saying that I'm right. I've been discussing this with my wife..................who believes the same as you.

I have difficulty with the idea that Christ, (as a flesh and blood human), lived every day of His life in perfection.

When he was 6-7-8-9-10....................... He never contemplated slapping some idiot upside the head?

I can't fathom that.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 06, 2013, 11:03:22 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 09:58:54 AM
I'm not saying that I'm right. I've been discussing this with my wife..................who believes the same as you.

I have difficulty with the idea that Christ, (as a flesh and blood human), lived every day of His life in perfection.

When he was 6-7-8-9-10....................... He never contemplated slapping some idiot upside the head?

I can't fathom that.

Contemplating slapping some idiot upside the head is not a sin.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 11:09:52 AM
Quote from: MFA on January 06, 2013, 11:03:22 AM
Contemplating slapping some idiot upside the head is not a sin.

Nor is it perfection...................which is what we were discussing. Absolute perfection, in human form.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 06, 2013, 11:43:01 AM
Humans measure "goodness" and "perfection" differently than God does. Yeshua was perfect and He was without sin, otherwise He could not pay the penalty for anyone's sin.

The Biblical definition of sin? Sin is the transgression (breaking) of the Law (Law of God).--1 John 3:4.  What is the Law of God? The Ten Commandments are the foundation of God's Law (similar to our national Constitution). It forms the basis of all that is God.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 06, 2013, 11:50:54 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 06, 2013, 11:43:01 AM
Humans measure "goodness" and "perfection" differently than God does. Yeshua was perfect and He was without sin, otherwise He could not pay the penalty for anyone's sin.

The Biblical definition of sin? Sin is the transgression (breaking) of the Law (Law of God).--1 John 3:4.  What is the Law of God? The Ten Commandments are the foundation of God's Law (similar to our national Constitution). It forms the basis of all that is God.

I'm glad you are secure in your beliefs. No argument here.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 07, 2013, 03:38:55 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 06, 2013, 11:43:01 AM
Humans measure "goodness" and "perfection" differently than God does. Yeshua was perfect and He was without sin, otherwise He could not pay the penalty for anyone's sin.

The Biblical definition of sin? Sin is the transgression (breaking) of the Law (Law of God).--1 John 3:4.  What is the Law of God? The Ten Commandments are the foundation of God's Law (similar to our national Constitution). It forms the basis of all that is God.

The law is the basis of all that is God?  That's not true.  God's primary characteristic is love, not law.  Even his justice and wrath are expressions of his love.  More than "transgressing God's law," sin is rejection of God.  If sin were only or primarily the breaking of God's law, then Adam and Eve would have been guiltless.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 07, 2013, 05:56:11 PM
I won't debate endlessly, or even ther other points you made, but how can you reject the BIBLICAL definition of sin: "Sin IS..."  That isn't from 1Carl (my name), but 1 John.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 07, 2013, 06:01:55 PM
On second thought, I will address your other point.

The Scriptures refer to the Commandments as God's Law of LOVE.

The first 4 tell you how you express your love for your Creator (you shall have nop other gods, you shall not take His Name in vain, Remember the SABBATH (not Satan's Day), etc). The next 6 tell you how to express your love for your fellow Man (you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor ... etc).
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 07, 2013, 06:07:50 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 07, 2013, 05:56:11 PM
I won't debate endlessly, or even ther other points you made, but how can you reject the BIBLICAL definition of sin: "Sin IS..."  That isn't from 1Carl (my name), but 1 John.

So...Adam and Eve didn't sin then; since they had no knowledge of right and wrong.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: walkstall on January 07, 2013, 07:01:52 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 07, 2013, 06:01:55 PM
On second thought, I will address your other point.

The Scriptures refer to the Commandments as God's Law of LOVE.

The first 4 tell you how you express your love for your Creator (you shall have nop other gods, you shall not take His Name in vain, Remember the SABBATH (not Satan's Day), etc). The next 6 tell you how to express your love for your fellow Man (you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor ... etc).


Just curious

I would like to know when is satan's day.  That way I will see if I can sleep through it.    At my age ever day is satan's day.   Don't do that, don't say that, don't eat that, don't look at that, don't feel that way.  That is just my good wife.   :lol:    Then you have my 4 doctors.   :ohmy:
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 07, 2013, 08:37:38 PM
We KNOW what day God gave Man to observe as a memorial of His work of Creation. It is the Day Jesus observed and the apostles and all of the prophets.

We also know that Satan, in his rebellion, put himself FIRST, above God.  Those should be clues enough for "those who have ears to hear."
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: walkstall on January 07, 2013, 09:26:59 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 07, 2013, 08:37:38 PM
We KNOW what day God gave Man to observe as a memorial of His work of Creation. It is the Day Jesus observed and the apostles and all of the prophets.

We also know that Satan, in his rebellion, put himself FIRST, above God.  Those should be clues enough for "those who have ears to hear."


All you had to say is, I don't know.  I didn't ask how to build a watch.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 08, 2013, 01:40:55 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 07, 2013, 08:37:38 PM
We KNOW what day God gave Man to observe as a memorial of His work of Creation. It is the Day Jesus observed and the apostles and all of the prophets.

We also know that Satan, in his rebellion, put himself FIRST, above God.  Those should be clues enough for "those who have ears to hear."

Well, except that the disciples met together on "the Lord's Day"; in fact, Jewish followers of Jesus would meet at the Temple and then congregate together uniquely the next day.  When gentiles became followers, they didn't participate in Jewish worship but met only with other followers of Jesus on "the Lord's Day."  Nowhere in scripture is the Sabbath called "the Lord's Day."
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: walkstall on January 08, 2013, 07:23:48 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 08, 2013, 01:40:55 PM
Well, except that the disciples met together on "the Lord's Day"; in fact, Jewish followers of Jesus would meet at the Temple and then congregate together uniquely the next day.  When gentiles became followers, they didn't participate in Jewish worship but met only with other followers of Jesus on "the Lord's Day."  Nowhere in scripture is the Sabbath called "the Lord's Day."


Then there was all that time lost before leap years, and after leap years.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Darth Fife on January 09, 2013, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 07, 2013, 06:07:50 PM
So...Adam and Eve didn't sin then; since they had no knowledge of right and wrong.

Are you really that illiterate?

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

Genesis 2 15:17


I don't know about you, but I'm going to go under the assumption that doing something that the All Powerful Lord of All Creation tells you NOT to do, is wrong!

I'm just funny that way...
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 10, 2013, 07:28:34 AM
Quote from: Darth Fife on January 09, 2013, 06:37:56 PM
Are you really that illiterate?

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

Genesis 2 15:17


I don't know about you, but I'm going to go under the assumption that doing something that the All Powerful Lord of All Creation tells you NOT to do, is wrong!

I'm just funny that way...

Well, it wasn't "wrong" in a moral sense.  Without "good and evil" what is morality?  It's "wrong"--but in what way?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 11, 2013, 06:02:16 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 08, 2013, 01:40:55 PM
Well, except that the disciples met together on "the Lord's Day"; in fact, Jewish followers of Jesus would meet at the Temple and then congregate together uniquely the next day.  When gentiles became followers, they didn't participate in Jewish worship but met only with other followers of Jesus on "the Lord's Day."  Nowhere in scripture is the Sabbath called "the Lord's Day."

Shabbat Shalom "Made for Adsense"

Please provide the scriptural references that the Church abandoned the Sabbath for Satan's SUNday. Then we can discuss it.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 11, 2013, 07:37:55 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 11, 2013, 06:02:16 PM
Shabbat Shalom "Made for Adsense"

Please provide the scriptural references that the Church abandoned the Sabbath for Satan's SUNday. Then we can discuss it.

Historical evidence.

Please provide scriptural references that Sunday is "Satan's day."

"...do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.  These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ" (Colossians 2:16-17).

Really...the first day of creation was "Satan's day"?  The day of Christ's resurrection was "Satan's day"?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 11, 2013, 07:53:47 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 11, 2013, 07:37:55 PM
"...do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.  These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ" (Colossians 2:16-17).

The apostle was talking to Gentile CONVERTS who had abandoned their pagan days and festivals (Saturnalia, Ishtar etc), and began observing the Christian Sabbath, the Holy Days (Passover, Pentecost, Trumpets, Tabernacles). The apostle was encouraging them to not accept the judgment of the pagans who judged them for abandoning their former practices for the Sabbath, the New Moon and the Holy days, just as I reject your judgment for observing the Days Yeshua, the disciples and all of the prophets observed.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 11, 2013, 08:07:02 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 11, 2013, 07:37:55 PM
Historical evidence.

Please provide scriptural references that Sunday is "Satan's day."

Really...the first day of creation was "Satan's day"?  The day of Christ's resurrection was "Satan's day"?

You (Satan) said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars (angels) of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north -- Isaiah

Satan rebelled against God, and has always HATED God's Sabbath. He has deceived the whole world into believing they are worshiping God, but it is only a counterfeit. The SABBATH is God's TEST Commandment. It is the one Commandment that most professing "christians" REJECT and refuse to obey. God's Sabbath is at the end of the week. Satan has substituted God's Sabbath for his day, the FIRST day of the week.

QuoteIn a further attempt to destroy God's Plan, Satan has attempted to change the days on which we should worship. That is why some may say that we must worship God on Sunday. Anciently, people worshipped the sun because it was a thing that they could see and they knew the sun was important to keep them and their crops alive. They worshipped the sun on Sunday. From the second century, Sunday worship was introduced in Rome alongside Sabbath worship. In about the 3rd to 4th century, some people tried to change the Sabbath to Sunday and they convinced others of this lie. http://www.ccg.org/english/c/cb023.html (http://www.ccg.org/english/c/cb023.html)

You have still not shown me where the day of worship of the true God was changed, or "proof" that the Church ever changed the day (until the Catholic Church -- the counterfeit church -- made thew change hundreds of years after the death and resurrection of Christ).

The true Church follows Yeshua (Jesus). The Great Counterfeit Church followed Simon Magus. The Daughters of this Church (the Protestants) also follow Simon Magus (the Sorcerer)
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 12, 2013, 05:23:36 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 11, 2013, 08:07:02 PM
You (Satan) said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars (angels) of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north -- Isaiah

Satan rebelled against God, and has always HATED God's Sabbath. He has deceived the whole world into believing they are worshiping God, but it is only a counterfeit. The SABBATH is God's TEST Commandment. It is the one Commandment that most professing "christians" REJECT and refuse to obey. God's Sabbath is at the end of the week. Satan has substituted God's Sabbath for his day, the FIRST day of the week.

You have still not shown me where the day of worship of the true God was changed, or "proof" that the Church ever changed the day (until the Catholic Church -- the counterfeit church -- made thew change hundreds of years after the death and resurrection of Christ).

The true Church follows Yeshua (Jesus). The Great Counterfeit Church followed Simon Magus. The Daughters of this Church (the Protestants) also follow Simon Magus (the Sorcerer)

Rather than trying to figure out what's what in the Bible, why not make every day God's day?

You are demonstrating what I don't like about religion....................ALL of them claim to be right. :mad:
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 05:58:35 AM
Because GOD said, "REMEMBER the Sabbath, to keep it Holy. Six days shall you labour, but the SEVENTH DAY (not the first day of the week) is the Sabbath of the Lord your God IN IT YOU SHALL NOT DO ANY WORK.

This isn't hard to understand. The Sabbath is a SPECIAL day in the eyes of God. It is a HOLY CONVOCATION. It is a time we are to set aside from OUR pursuits and give that 24 hour period of time to HIM.

Jesus kept the day, the disciples did too, and so did all the holy prophets. Why do today's Christians hold the day in contempt?

Rather than fight and argue with God, why not surrender to His word? Nothing good comes with fighting against the COMMANDMENTS of God
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 06:09:50 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 12, 2013, 05:23:36 AM


You are demonstrating what I don't like about religion....................ALL of them claim to be right. :mad:

Interesting that you quoted and respond to me and not the guy who doesn't follow the example of Jesus, the apostles and the prophets.

Do you understand what Jesus meant when he said this...

QuoteThey are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other: "'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry.'

If you don't like to figure out the TRUTH concerning Christianity, why are you attempting to "participate" in this discussion?  If I don't like a topic, I don't interject myself in the middle of a conversation that I have no knowledge of or any desire to learn. RIGHT NOW, my conversation is with MFA since he seems to have a desire to discuss this issue.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 12, 2013, 08:41:02 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 06:09:50 AM
Interesting that you quoted and respond to me and not the guy who doesn't follow the example of Jesus, the apostles and the prophets.

Do you understand what Jesus meant when he said this...

If you don't like to figure out the TRUTH concerning Christianity, why are you attempting to "participate" in this discussion?  If I don't like a topic, I don't interject myself in the middle of a conversation that I have no knowledge of or any desire to learn. RIGHT NOW, my conversation is with MFA since he seems to have a desire to discuss this issue.

I'll say any damned thing I feel like, whenever I want to.

When you call Catholics "the counterfeit" church, and say that Protestants follow a sorcerer............you led me to say exactly what I said.

Your attitude is called " self righteousness".
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 11:25:29 AM
You reject the Bible. It is not the source of your beliefs, therefore you cannot engage in an intelligent conversation on the Bible.  My conversation was with MFA, not with you. You told me how you FEEL, and have not proven your point FROM THE SCRIPTURES.  You are not a Christian if you reject the Bible as the inspired Word of God. Therefore, your opinion is not a part of THIS discussion. FEELINGS have nothing to do with provable facts. Do your homework on the origins of the Catholic Church and the "Peter/Simon" who founded it.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 11:32:48 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 11, 2013, 07:53:47 PM
The apostle was talking to Gentile CONVERTS who had abandoned their pagan days and festivals (Saturnalia, Ishtar etc), and began observing the Christian Sabbath, the Holy Days (Passover, Pentecost, Trumpets, Tabernacles). The apostle was encouraging them to not accept the judgment of the pagans who judged them for abandoning their former practices for the Sabbath, the New Moon and the Holy days, just as I reject your judgment for observing the Days Yeshua, the disciples and all of the prophets observed.

That's an interesting interpretation.  Don't let anyone judge you means don't let pagans judge you?  Does he mean the same in Romans when he talks about avoiding meat served to idols for the sake of those weak in faith?

You're kind of missing the point, though.  I'm not judging you for keeping the Sabbath.  I have not done so.  I don't know why you think I have.

I have responded to your judgment on those who do not and to your calling of another day (a day that "the Lord made") "Satan's Day."
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 11:37:03 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 11, 2013, 08:07:02 PM
You (Satan) said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars (angels) of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north -- Isaiah

...the King of Tyre?

QuoteSatan rebelled against God, and has always HATED God's Sabbath. He has deceived the whole world into believing they are worshiping God, but it is only a counterfeit. The SABBATH is God's TEST Commandment. It is the one Commandment that most professing "christians" REJECT and refuse to obey. God's Sabbath is at the end of the week. Satan has substituted God's Sabbath for his day, the FIRST day of the week.

What did Jesus do on the Sabbath?  What does it mean to "rest" on the Sabbath?  What did the priests do on the Sabbath?  What does it mean to "keep" the Sabbath and how do you know that Christians who worship together on Sunday don't keep the Sabbath?

QuoteYou have still not shown me where the day of worship of the true God was changed, or "proof" that the Church ever changed the day (until the Catholic Church -- the counterfeit church -- made thew change hundreds of years after the death and resurrection of Christ).

Hundreds of years?  Okay...

The Apocryphal Gospel of Peter refers to the first day of the week as kyriake--the word traditionally translated as "the Lord's Day."  It is an unambiguous connection of "the Lord's Day" with the first day of the week.  This book was written probably early in the second century--not "hundreds of years" after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

QuoteThe true Church follows Yeshua (Jesus). The Great Counterfeit Church followed Simon Magus. The Daughters of this Church (the Protestants) also follow Simon Magus (the Sorcerer)

Wow.  And you accuse me of judging you? :unsure:
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 11:37:52 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 12, 2013, 05:23:36 AM
Rather than trying to figure out what's what in the Bible, why not make every day God's day?


Yes!  Satan doesn't deserve one and does not have exclusive right to one.  Which day does not belong to God?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 05:58:35 AM
Because GOD said, "REMEMBER the Sabbath, to keep it Holy. Six days shall you labour, but the SEVENTH DAY (not the first day of the week) is the Sabbath of the Lord your God IN IT YOU SHALL NOT DO ANY WORK.

This isn't hard to understand. The Sabbath is a SPECIAL day in the eyes of God. It is a HOLY CONVOCATION. It is a time we are to set aside from OUR pursuits and give that 24 hour period of time to HIM.

And how do we do that?

QuoteJesus kept the day, the disciples did too, and so did all the holy prophets. Why do today's Christians hold the day in contempt?

Jesus actually exonerated his disciples when they broke the law as given in the Old Testament by breaking the heads off grain to eat.

QuoteRather than fight and argue with God, why not surrender to His word? Nothing good comes with fighting against the COMMANDMENTS of God

And by "His word," what you mean is, what you are saying...
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 11:25:29 AMYou are not a Christian if you reject the Bible as the inspired Word of God.

Watch your judgments again, there buddy.  There were Christians before the Bible was written.  Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me..."  He never said, "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to those books you will write about me."

The Bible does not say that whoever does not accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God is not a Christian (although it stands to reason to ask where someone who follows Christ is getting his/her information if not from the Bible).
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: walkstall on January 12, 2013, 12:00:32 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 11:37:52 AM
Yes!  Satan doesn't deserve one and does not have exclusive right to one.  Which day does not belong to God?

I have yet to understand how long a day is (was) in Gods time.   Or what day of the week God starting working, as I am sure there were no days or weeks at that time. 

I think time was made by man not by God.  If God made 7 days a week, how could one of the 7 days be bad.

How long was a day in Gods time?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 11:37:52 AM
Yes!  Satan doesn't deserve one and does not have exclusive right to one.  Which day does not belong to God?

When you HONOR and worship a god on a day HE (your Creator) hasn't sanctified, you are not honoring your Creator, but instead, the god of this world (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/4-4.htm).

The true God, has not given you the option do decide WHICH day is to be set aside to devote to him as a HOLY Day. You cannot make a day holy--only God can tell you which day is holy.

I'm still waiting for proof FROM THE SCRIPTURES, as to where the Sabbath was changed to Sunday.  The Counterfeit Church BRAGS that it alone has changed "Times & Laws" because they have the authority to do so.  THEY (the Counterfeit Church) brags that the fact that modern "christianity" follows THEM (the other Church) is "proof" that they have this authority to do so.

MFA, please provide your proof that the Sabbath was changed or no longer applies.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 12:07:19 PM
Quote from: walkstall on January 12, 2013, 12:00:32 PM
I have yet to understand how long a day is (was) in Gods time.   Or what day of the week God starting working, as I am sure there were no days or weeks at that time.

I agree, and yet God does communicate his rest and mandates the following of his example.

QuoteI think time was made by man not by God.

Do you mean time or the measuring of time?

QuoteIf God made 7 days a week, how could one of the 7 days be bad.

I agree, although God made other things that ended up bad.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 12:14:47 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 12:04:54 PM
When you HONOR and worship a god on a day HE (your Creator) hasn't sanctified, you are not honoring your Creator, but instead, the god of this world (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/4-4.htm).

Isn't everything sanctified in Christ?  Are we really to honor God on one day but not on the rest?

QuoteThe true God, has not given you the option do decide WHICH day is to be set aside to devote to him as a HOLY Day. You cannot make a day holy--only God can tell you which day is holy.

I'm still waiting for proof FROM THE SCRIPTURES, as to where the Sabbath was changed to Sunday.

Well, there is evidence but there isn't absolute proof.  I gave you very early historical evidence (from before the "Catholic Church" was the "Roman Catholic Church").  Not sure why that counts for nothing.

In the Colossians passage as well, Paul says that "these things" (i.e., days, festivals, along with food and drink, etc.) are merely "shadows of things to come."

QuoteThe Counterfeit Church BRAGS that it alone has changed "Times & Laws" because they have the authority to do so.  THEY (the Counterfeit Church) brags that the fact that modern "christianity" follows THEM (the other Church) is "proof" that they have this authority to do so.

I think that's a whole different conversation.

QuoteMFA, please provide your proof that the Sabbath was changed or no longer applies.

Well, you're choosing to ignore, first of all, that Jesus exonerated the specific breaking of Sabbath law--because he is Lord of the Sabbath, and that man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath was made for man.

It's funny, though, that you are going on about this without answering exactly how we "keep the Sabbath" or "honor the Sabbath."  Isn't all of this kind of moot until that's cleared up?  I mean, let's say we agree that Saturday is the "Day That Is Meant To Be Kept Holy," but by "keeping it holy" what I mean is "eating at McDonald's"?

I mean, you still haven't clarified what "keeping the Sabbath" means.

It certainly does not mean "gathering for corporate worship" because there are all kinds of examples in the Bible in which people gathered for worship on days that were not the Sabbath.  It also does not mean "universal avoidance of all kinds of work" because Jesus "worked" on the Sabbath and said that "he was doing what his Father was doing" (i.e, working on the Sabbath).

So...what does it mean to "keep the Sabbath"?  Heck, maybe I'm already doing it but I don't even know it...! :wink:
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 12, 2013, 12:54:13 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 11:37:52 AM
Yes!  Satan doesn't deserve one and does not have exclusive right to one.  Which day does not belong to God?

I know that was a rhetorical question.......but none!

I believe the Bible is the word of God, but it is an attempt to get humans to understand the incomprehensible. Both it's writing, and it's various interpretations have been run through the, (imperfect), human filter. Stuff happens.

Humans are capable of screwing up anything they touch.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:39:19 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 12, 2013, 12:54:13 PM
I know that was a rhetorical question.......but none!

I believe the Bible is the word of God, but it is an attempt to get humans to understand the incomprehensible. Both it's writing, and it's various interpretations have been run through the, (imperfect), human filter. Stuff happens.

Humans are capable of screwing up anything they touch.

Yes.  There's no such thing as biblical application without interpretation and interpretation (even aided by the Holy Spirit) is a human endeavor and thus imperfect.  No one person (or church, or denomination) has a monopoly on Bible truth.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 01:46:12 PM
REMEMBER the Sabbath Day--to KEEP IT HOLY. Six days shall you labor, but the seventh day is the Sabbath OF THE Lord Your God. In it you shall not do any work.

Only those in REBELLION against the God of Israel would argue that this is open to interpretation.  Your hostility to this clear COMMANDMENT tells me about your relationship with the Lord of the Sabbath (http://bible.cc/matthew/12-8.htm).
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:50:26 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 01:46:12 PM
REMEMBER the Sabbath Day--to KEEP IT HOLY. Six days shall you labor, but the seventh day is the Sabbath OF THE Lord Your God. In it you shall not do any work.

Only those in REBELLION against the God of Israel would argue that this is open to interpretation.  Your hostility to this clear COMMANDMENT tells me about your relationship with the Lord of the Sabbath (http://bible.cc/matthew/12-8.htm).

HOW DO YOU "KEEP THE SABBATH"?

Jesus did work on the Sabbath.  He claimed that his Father did work on the Sabbath.  The priests did work on the Sabbath.

Surely you are not so blindly fundamentalist about this that you cannot think through these questions beyond the black and white...

Do you know the Jewish definition of "work"?  Do you turn on a light switch on a Saturday?  You're breaking the Sabbath.  There is obviously interpretation involved.  That's why there are reams and reams of definition in Judaism as to what constitutes "work."

Please.  Think.  Answer.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 01:52:03 PM
Made for Adsense (MFA), I have asked REPEATEDLY for you to furnish proof that the Church of God abandoned the Sabbath for SUNday. You have yet to furnish that proof. Instead, you and the other have gone the personal attack route because you cannot honestly defend your position.

I will admit that the Counterfeit Church (founded by Simon Magus (http://www.pointsoftruth.com/SimonMagus.html)), did change the day of worship to SUNday around 360 Ad.  Can you show me BIBLICAL refrences that what you had ORIGINALLY said is true?

I await your SCRIPTURAL proof.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 01:55:08 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:50:26 PM
HOW DO YOU "KEEP THE SABBATH"?

Jesus did work on the Sabbath.  He claimed that his Father did work on the Sabbath.  The priests did work on the Sabbath.

Surely you are not so blindly fundamentalist about this that you cannot think through these questions beyond the black and white...

Do you know the Jewish definition of "work"?  Do you turn on a light switch on a Saturday?  You're breaking the Sabbath.  There is obviously interpretation involved.  That's why there are reams and reams of definition in Judaism as to what constitutes "work."

Please.  Think.  Answer.

I will delve further into Keeping the Sabbath when you answer your ORIGINAL argument about the Church abandoning the 4th COMMANDMENT for another day.

You keep trying to change the subject rather than admit error.

Deal with the original discussion FIRST, and then we can move forward.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:59:18 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 01:52:03 PM
Made for Adsense (MFA), I have asked REPEATEDLY for you to furnish proof that the Church of God abandoned the Sabbath for SUNday. You have yet to furnish that proof. Instead, you and the other have gone the personal attack route because you cannot honestly defend your position.

You asked for proof.  I gave you proof.

Then you changed the goalposts and asked for scriptural proof.  There are hints (although ambiguous) in the Bible, of which I gave you some.

Now you're saying I never gave you proof.  Are you being deliberately dishonest?  Or is this a mistake?

QuoteI will admit that the Counterfeit Church (founded by Simon Magus), did change the day of worship to SUNday around 360 Ad.  Can you show me BIBLICAL refrences that what you had ORIGINALLY said is true?

I already gave a reference to the change which dates to early second century.  So...at least 200 years before you say the change happened.  Why are you ignoring that?

QuoteI await your SCRIPTURAL proof.

John was on the Island of Patmos on "the Lord's Day."  In his Gospel, he uses the word "Sabbath" 9 times.  If he meant "Sabbath" in his Revelation, why did he not say it?  This is evidence that they are two different days.  You'd be hard-pressed to make the case that he is referring to the Sabbath when he said "the Lord's Day."
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:59:18 PM
You asked for proof.  I gave you proof.

Then you changed the goalposts and asked for scriptural proof.  There are hints (although ambiguous) in the Bible, of which I gave you some.

Now you're saying I never gave you proof.  Are you being deliberately dishonest?  Or is this a mistake?

I already gave a reference to the change which dates to early second century.  So...at least 200 years before you say the change happened.  Why are you ignoring that?

John was on the Island of Patmos on "the Lord's Day."  In his Gospel, he uses the word "Sabbath" 9 times.  If he meant "Sabbath" in his Revelation, why did he not say it?  This is evidence that they are two different days.  You'd be hard-pressed to make the case that he is referring to the Sabbath when he said "the Lord's Day."

No, you made statements that the disciple abandoned Sabbath for Sunday. You gave no proof.  Provide the SCRIPTURAL proof. I've given you many chances to make your case. You're not even as good as most Sunday keepers. I've heard ALL of the arguments. Do I have to do your job for you?  I was expecting a more worthy opponent.
QuoteThen you changed the goalposts and asked for scriptural proof.  There are hints (although ambiguous) in the Bible, of which I gave you some.
I won't move forward with you in this discussion until you can make your case that GOD'S Sabbath was CHANGED to Sunday.  WHY are you so hostile to GOD'S Sabbath?  That tells me boatloads.

Of course, in the RELIGION FORUM, in a discussion between "Christians", I would assume that "proof" means nothing but SCRIPTURAL proof. Why would it mean anything less to you?????

BTW, did you know Daniel said the mark of the Antichrist would be that he would change Times & Laws?  Which Church did that, and even BRAGS about it?  That's right, the Church of Simon Magus.

Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 02:32:17 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 02:19:47 PM
No, you made statements that the disciple abandoned Sabbath for Sunday. You gave no proof.  Provide the SCRIPTURAL proof. I've given you many chances to make your case. You're not even as good as most Sunday keepers. I've heard ALL of the arguments. Do I have to do your job for you?  I was expecting a more worthy opponent.I won't move forward with you in this discussion until you can make your case that GOD'S Sabbath was CHANGED to Sunday.  WHY are you so hostile to GOD'S Sabbath?  That tells me boatloads.

I never said "the Sabbath was CHANGED to Sunday."  When did I ever say that?

My position is that Jewish Christians kept the Sabbath but met together as followers of Christ including gentile Christians on the day after the Sabbath.

QuoteOf course, in the RELIGION FORUM, in a discussion between "Christians", I would assume that "proof" means nothing but SCRIPTURAL proof. Why would it mean anything less to you?????

I think your assumption is illegitimate.  It is certainly reasonable to introduce the documented practices of the early Christians.  It's not scripture, but it certainly does mean something.

QuoteBTW, did you know Daniel said the mark of the Antichrist would be that he would change Times & Laws?  Which Church did that, and even BRAGS about it?  That's right, the Church of Simon Magus.

You know what?  I think you need to start a different thread on your diatribe against the Roman Catholic Church.  It's not really adding to this discussion.  It is certainly not scriptural.  The words "Roman Catholic Church" do not appear in scripture.  Neither does "Church of Simon Magus."  In fact, Simon the Magus was in incidental character in Acts.  Everything to which you refer about him is extra-biblical and probably more based on tradition than anything else.

So, (1) put it on another thread, and (2) if you want to prove stuff just from scripture then you gotta lose the Simon the Magus stuff.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:21:31 PM
All of these endless posts of yours, and I have asked in nearly every thread that you prove your claim that the early Church abandoned the Sabbath which GOD clearly COMMANDS.

You make endless posts and constantly change the topic but will not prove that point.  Until you do, I will ignore your claims.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:24:00 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 08, 2013, 01:40:55 PM
Well, except that the disciples met together on "the Lord's Day"; in fact, Jewish followers of Jesus would meet at the Temple and then congregate together uniquely the next day.  When gentiles became followers, they didn't participate in Jewish worship but met only with other followers of Jesus on "the Lord's Day."  Nowhere in scripture is the Sabbath called "the Lord's Day."

HERE is your original claim that I keep asking you to prove.  Will you do it now?
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 03:38:23 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:24:00 PM
HERE is your original claim that I keep asking you to prove.  Will you do it now?

Okay, so just to be clear, I never said "the Sabbath was changed."  Neither did I say that "the disciples did not keep the Sabbath."  I said that Jewish Christians kept the Jewish Sabbath.  Gentile believers did not.

How do I know this?

Because John refers to "the Lord's Day" and very early history attests to the fact "the Lord's Day" was Sunday.
Because there is no evidence that gentile believers worshiped on the Sabbath.

This is confirmed by the Jerusalem Council which did not require gentile Christians to observe Mosaic Law (the terms of the first covenant); they were required to abide by three requirements:  maintain sexual purity, abstain from meat with blood in it, and eschew idolatry.

You're contesting, on the other hand, that at one point in history, centuries after Jesus' resurrection, a political entity claiming to represent the Church of Jesus Christ mandated a sweeping change of worship practice, and all followers of Jesus meekly followed along--until some Christians smartened up quite a while later.

I've already proven that your timeline here is wrong but it stands to reason that this kind of political power would be difficult, if not impossible, to enact.  It would also be pointless, unless you presume a successful satanic or pagan conspiracy to infiltrate the Church and take it over.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:50:31 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 03:38:23 PM


How do I know this?

Because John refers to "the Lord's Day" and very early history attests to the fact "the Lord's Day" was Sunday.
Because there is no evidence that gentile believers worshiped on the Sabbath.



Please give the SCRIPTURAL reference to "the Lord's Day" that you keep referring to. Then we will discuss it. Hint: it doesn't mean what you WANT it to mean.

BTW, the Sabbath COMMANDMENT is part of the Foundational Law. It applies to ALL Mankind if they submit to the One True God. It is not a part of the "Law of Moses." Why do you insist on pulling THAT Commandment from the 10 and not, You shall not murder, or You shall not steal.

Again, your natural hostility to THAT Commandment should reveal something very sinister about what/who has you under his spell.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 12, 2013, 04:11:34 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:50:31 PM
Please give the SCRIPTURAL reference to "the Lord's Day" that you keep referring to. Then we will discuss it. Hint: it doesn't mean what you WANT it to mean.

BTW, the Sabbath COMMANDMENT is part of the Foundational Law. It applies to ALL Mankind if they submit to the One True God. It is not a part of the "Law of Moses." Why do you insist on pulling THAT Commandment from the 10 and not, You shall not murder, or You shall not steal.

Again, your natural hostility to THAT Commandment should reveal something very sinister about what/who has you under his spell.

Hint: Open your heart to Jesus and his Father, and these stupid conversations become moot.

You are missing the forest for the trees. Keep on proving it.

The Bible was never intended to become a contest of who understands it better; nor was it intended for particular religions to share the limelight with Jesus Christ. :glare:
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 04:16:59 PM
Sorry, but your input doesn't count here.

The Sabbath argument is the SAME as one saying it is a CRIME to murder, and the other saying it is not.  Both (Keep the Sabbath and You shall not murder) are part of the SAME Law of God.
If you're going to participate in this thread, try to offer something intelligent. I'm having enough trouble keeping "Made for Adsense" focused.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 04:19:19 PM
MFA,

HERE are the scriptures related to the "Lord's Day" that you seem unable to provide to make your case.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/3Verses.htm (http://www.remnantofgod.org/3Verses.htm)

CLAIM #1... Acts 20:7 "And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."


CLAIM #2... I Corinthians 16:2 "Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [god] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."


CLAIM #3... Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet"


CLAIM #4... Mark 2:23-28 "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.  And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?  And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?  How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."




CLAIM #5... Colossians 2:16-17  "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."




CLAIM #6... Galatians 4:9-11, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.



CLAIM #7... Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.



Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 04:26:47 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:50:31 PM
Please give the SCRIPTURAL reference to "the Lord's Day" that you keep referring to. Then we will discuss it. Hint: it doesn't mean what you WANT it to mean.

Wow.  I said it was in John's Revelation.  I presumed you'd be familiar with it.  Sorry.

Revelation 1:10-11 - "On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'"

Remember that John uses the word "Sabbath" 9 times in his Gospel.  Clearly he is not referring to the Sabbath.

QuoteBTW, the Sabbath COMMANDMENT is part of the Foundational Law. It applies to ALL Mankind if they submit to the One True God. It is not a part of the "Law of Moses." Why do you insist on pulling THAT Commandment from the 10 and not, You shall not murder, or You shall not steal.

I pull 'em all.  Why do you presume that I am one of those that says, "Christians must obey the 10 Commandments"?  That's not scriptural.

QuoteAgain, your natural hostility to THAT Commandment should reveal something very sinister about what/who has you under his spell.

You're blinded by what you think I have said.  Christians are not obligated to keep the law.  Not only that, but Christians that attempt to earn or keep justification or sanctification through the law (including the 10 Commandments), are effectively denying the efficacy of Christ's death and resurrection.  That's in scripture.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 04:55:06 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 04:26:47 PM
Wow.  I said it was in John's Revelation.  I presumed you'd be familiar with it.  Sorry.

Revelation 1:10-11 - "On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'"

Yes, I am familiar with it. That is why I said I was waiting for you to use it and that it doesn't mean what you think it does.  Why does this mean Sunday (the first day of the week) to you? Where does it say this is talking about Sunday? The fact is, it is talking about The Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the prophetic time immediately after the Great Tribulation. It has NOTHING to do with Sunday.

Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 04:26:47 PMRemember that John uses the word "Sabbath" 9 times in his Gospel.  Clearly he is not referring to the Sabbath.

There is the WEEKLY Sabbath and also the ANNUAL Sabbaths (the Holy Days). If you think any of them mean anything else, please quote them and explain.

Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 04:26:47 PMI pull 'em all.  Why do you presume that I am one of those that says, "Christians must obey the 10 Commandments"?  That's not scriptural.

Why do you think I believe you do? I don't. You are in REBELLION against God over the Sabbath. It is a COMMANDMENT for all of Mankind. You reject it. So how could I think you advocate observing ALL of His COMMANDMENTS when you clearly don't. You follow Simon Magus and I foillow Jesus, the apostles and prophets.

Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 04:26:47 PMYou're blinded by what you think I have said.  Christians are not obligated to keep the law.  Not only that, but Christians that attempt to earn or keep justification or sanctification through the law (including the 10 Commandments), are effectively denying the efficacy of Christ's death and resurrection.  That's in scripture.
Really??? So if you DON'T murder, or steal or lie, then you are trying to "earn" salvation?  See how you're trying to justify sin ONLY when it comes to the Sabbath? Remember when I pointed out to you the definition of sin. Sin IS the transgression (breaking) of the Law--I John 3:4. That's why I said you're in REBELLION against God and are actually worshiping Satan by insisting that keeping Sunday is necessary, but keeping Sabbath as God COMMANDED is "earning salvation."  How twisted your mind has become to create that line of reasoning in your mind.

If you haven't murdered, I have to ask, "WHY are you trying to earn your salvation???"

Why do you reject the REAL Jesus (Yeshua)???

QuoteNow a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments." 18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "

And....

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.--Rev 12
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 05:47:00 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 04:16:59 PM
Sorry, but your input doesn't count here.

Yes, it does.

QuoteThe Sabbath argument is the SAME as one saying it is a CRIME to murder, and the other saying it is not.  Both (Keep the Sabbath and You shall not murder) are part of the SAME Law of God.

Well, you're wrong, because God's prophets passed God's judgments on the nations around Israel--for their treatment of the poor, for murder, for injustice.  But never for failure to keep the Sabbath.

Why?

Because that is part of the Mosaic Covenant.  It doesn't apply to non-Jews.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 05:48:16 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 04:19:19 PM
MFA,

HERE are the scriptures related to the "Lord's Day" that you seem unable to provide to make your case.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/3Verses.htm (http://www.remnantofgod.org/3Verses.htm)

CLAIM #1... Acts 20:7 "And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."


CLAIM #2... I Corinthians 16:2 "Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [god] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."


CLAIM #3... Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet"


CLAIM #4... Mark 2:23-28 "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.  And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?  And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?  How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."




CLAIM #5... Colossians 2:16-17  "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."




CLAIM #6... Galatians 4:9-11, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.



CLAIM #7... Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Well, I did provide some of them.  Did you miss them?  You imply that provided none.  Hmmm...
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 05:54:09 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 04:55:06 PM
Yes, I am familiar with it. That is why I said I was waiting for you to use it and that it doesn't mean what you think it does.  Why does this mean Sunday (the first day of the week) to you? Where does it say this is talking about Sunday? The fact is, it is talking about The Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the prophetic time immediately after the Great Tribulation. It has NOTHING to do with Sunday.

The "Day of the Lord" (referencing OT prophetic literature) is not a "single day."  Why would John say that?

But wait, this phrase is only used once in the Bible.  Here.  By John.

The "Day of the Lord" is used for the "day of God's judgment" or the "day of God's deliverance."

If what you're saying here is true, then why did you say "the Lord's Day" is the Sabbath"?  Seems you're contradicting your original contention.

QuoteThere is the WEEKLY Sabbath and also the ANNUAL Sabbaths (the Holy Days). If you think any of them mean anything else, please quote them and explain.

Well, actually, when John says "Sabbath" he's referring to Saturday.  That's why, when he says "the Lord's Day," he's not referring to the Sabbath.

QuoteWhy do you think I believe you do? I don't. You are in REBELLION against God over the Sabbath. It is a COMMANDMENT for all of Mankind. You reject it. So how could I think you advocate observing ALL of His COMMANDMENTS when you clearly don't. You follow Simon Magus and I foillow Jesus, the apostles and prophets.

For all of mankind?  Where does scripture say that?

And...bringing Simon Magus into it? What happened to "proof from scripture"?  Aren't you being more than a bit hypocritical when you keep bringing that in?

QuoteReally??? So if you DON'T murder, or steal or lie, then you are trying to "earn" salvation?

No.  You're misrepresenting the teaching of the New Testament.

QuoteSee how you're trying to justify sin ONLY when it comes to the Sabbath?

Wrong again.  You're not really trying to understand what I'm trying to say, are you?

QuoteRemember when I pointed out to you the definition of sin. Sin IS the transgression (breaking) of the Law--I John 3:4. That's why I said you're in REBELLION against God and are actually worshiping Satan by insisting that keeping Sunday is necessary, but keeping Sabbath as God COMMANDED is "earning salvation."  How twisted your mind has become to create that line of reasoning in your mind.

So why are we to keep the law?

QuoteIf you haven't murdered, I have to ask, "WHY are you trying to earn your salvation???"

Totally missing the point.

QuoteWhy do you reject the REAL Jesus (Yeshua)???

Lose the arrogance, bud.

QuoteAnd....

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.--Rev 12

What is the relevance?  You're sounding rabid.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 06:37:18 PM
You're not a serious debater. Truth is irrelevant to you. I'm done with you.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 06:57:26 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 06:37:18 PM
You're not a serious debater. Truth is irrelevant to you. I'm done with you.

Translation:  "I'm out of my depth and am unable to deal with a higher level of processing thought and information so I bow out when my dearly held presuppositions are challenged.  Thus, I will make a judgmental comment right before I bow out to feel better about myself (of course, forgetting that I was the one that originally accused you of being judgmental)."

That about right?

This is the important thing that you're missing (besides the judgment of the Jerusalem Council, which you have blatantly and repeatedly ignored):

Galatians 2:15-16 - "We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified."

Galatians 2:21 - "...if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 3:3 - "Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?"

Galatians 5:1 - "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

Galatians 5:4 - "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 06:01:44 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 04:16:59 PM
Sorry, but your input doesn't count here.

The Sabbath argument is the SAME as one saying it is a CRIME to murder, and the other saying it is not.  Both (Keep the Sabbath and You shall not murder) are part of the SAME Law of God.
If you're going to participate in this thread, try to offer something intelligent. I'm having enough trouble keeping "Made for Adsense" focused.

You are quite correct.

Your profound ability to cast stones and pass judgement on others is very evident.

I'm gonna give you one more hint before I leave..............

A person can memorize the equation 2 + 2= 4, and use it to impress others.

If they have no conceptual understanding of the number 2, then the number 4 is equally meaningless.

Memorizing and quoting scripture is much the same.
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 06:41:53 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 06:01:44 AM
You are quite correct.

Your profound ability to cast stones and pass judgement on others is very evident.

I'm gonna give you one more hint before I leave..............

A person can memorize the equation 2 + 2= 4, and use it to impress others.

If they have no conceptual understanding of the number 2, then the number 4 is equally meaningless.

Memorizing and quoting scripture is much the same.


(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe105%2FCommentCrazyGirl%2FSmileys%2520Action%2FShop%2520Chores%2Fbth_hammer.gif&hash=e7b0b4622cdcbd5362a025a3b703fc0967526ffe)
Title: Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 06:57:56 AM
Quote from: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 06:41:53 AM

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe105%2FCommentCrazyGirl%2FSmileys%2520Action%2FShop%2520Chores%2Fbth_hammer.gif&hash=e7b0b4622cdcbd5362a025a3b703fc0967526ffe)

I suppose I should have thanked him for doing all of the heavy lifting in proving my point. :wink: