Are there any absolute rights enjoyed by mankind?
It would seem not.
Life? No, that is regulated by the death penalty.
Liberty? No, there are jails full.
Pursuit of Happiness? LOL! Ya, sure.......
I can't think of even one absolute right. You?
Quote from: a777pilot on November 12, 2012, 11:05:44 AM
Are there any absolute rights enjoyed by mankind?
It would seem not.
Life? No, that is regulated by the death penalty.
Liberty? No, there are jails full.
Pursuit of Happiness? LOL! Ya, sure.......
I can't think of even one absolute right. You?
You have an absolute right to your life and body, which implies liberty and freedom of choice.
Just because these rights can be violated does not mean they do not exist.
Rights merely circumscribe ethically unjust behavior from just.
Just because something is morally wrong to do does not mean it is impossible to do.
In truth, without our Bill of Rights, none of us would have any Rights.
Think about it, did the cave man have any rights, outside of his own power or projected power?
God gave us Rights, not the Govt, it behooves us all to continue the fight to retain them, don't look to govt to protect them, it is Govt that wants to usurp them.
Quote from: Solar on November 12, 2012, 11:22:26 AM
In truth, without our Bill of Rights, none of us would have any Rights.
Think about it, did the cave man have any rights, outside of his own power or projected power?
God gave us Rights, not the Govt, it behooves us all to continue the fight to retain them, don't look to govt to protect them, it is Govt that wants to usurp them.
Those two statements are at odds with each other.
If rights are natural or God given, then the Bill of Rights did not create them.
It is one or the other.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on November 12, 2012, 11:27:19 AM
Those two statements are at odds with each other.
If rights are natural or God given, then the Bill of Rights did not create them.
It is one or the other.
I'm in favor of the GOD given right. Rights "given" by a government or document can be taken away by another government or document.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on November 12, 2012, 11:27:19 AM
Those two statements are at odds with each other.
If rights are natural or God given, then the Bill of Rights did not create them.
It is one or the other.
The Bill of Rights is an extension of God's given Rights.
You have no rights other than those you make for yourself, By either force or cunning.
Quote from: Solar on November 12, 2012, 11:29:54 AM
The Bill of Rights is an extension of God's given Rights.
Certainly.
And that conflicts with this statement:
QuoteIn truth, without our Bill of Rights, none of us would have any Rights.
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on November 12, 2012, 11:33:57 AM
You have no rights other than those you make for yourself, By either force or cunning.
So you're suggesting that we actually live in a state of anomie, if not anarchy?
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on November 12, 2012, 11:33:57 AM
You have no rights other than those you make for yourself, By either force or cunning.
No way.
If I am unable to force you to accept my liberty, nor explain or argue why I have it, matters not in the least.
Initiating force is always wrong, for it violates the self ownership each person has and undermines the foundation of society.
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on November 12, 2012, 11:33:57 AM
You have no rights other than those you make for yourself, By either force or cunning.
BTW, wouldn't that make the institution of a Gulag system "right", even if those assigned to it, weren't there volutarily?
Quote from: mdgiles on November 12, 2012, 11:50:13 AM
BTW, wouldn't that make the institution of a Gulag system "right", even if those assigned to it, weren't there volutarily?
Yes.
And it would make the holocaust and any other acts of mass murder, morally acceptable too.
This is going well. Thanks. I have a lot to learn and you are all helping.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on November 12, 2012, 11:42:15 AM
Certainly.
And that conflicts with this statement:
The Bill of Rights usurps the power of the Govt.
These rights are God given Rights, it is us that project the power to keep them.
It may seem contradictory on it's face but, but in truth, these are provisory at best when you consider the Amendment process.
You have an absolute right to all of those things UNTIL you decide to violate those rights in others.
If you STEAL a life, you must repay with your own--unless you're a mom and decide you don't want your child
And so on with the rest.
You make the mistake that because the Godvernment VIOLATES your absolute rights, that they don't exist. If the government permits stealing that doesn't mean stealing is a right. That's what happens when you put government in God's place.
Quote from: a777pilot on November 12, 2012, 11:05:44 AM
Are there any absolute rights enjoyed by mankind?
It would seem not.
Life? No, that is regulated by the death penalty.
Liberty? No, there are jails full.
Pursuit of Happiness? LOL! Ya, sure.......
I can't think of even one absolute right. You?
Quote from: Solar on November 12, 2012, 12:00:25 PM
The Bill of Rights usurps the power of the Govt.
These rights are God given Rights, it is us that project the power to keep them.
It may seem contradictory on it's face but, but in truth, these are provisory at best when you consider the Amendment process.
So we agree that the Bill of Rights is about restraining government, rather than "granting" rights?
Quote from: TowardLiberty on November 12, 2012, 12:18:05 PM
So we agree that the Bill of Rights is about restraining government, rather than "granting" rights?
Absolutely!!!
That's why they are God given Rights.
Just dawned on me, it must be quite the conundrum for libs that hate the idea of God and his granting of a given set rights, yet ... :laugh:
Quote from: Solar on November 12, 2012, 12:27:32 PM
Absolutely!!!
That's why they are God given Rights.
Just dawned on me, it must be quite the conundrum for libs that hate the idea of God and his granting of a given set rights, yet ... :laugh:
Well if they dislike the idea, there is also the argument that these rights exist by virtue of our humanity, and the human condition.
So there is an entirely secular and logical argument for self ownership that does not rest on faith or God.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on November 12, 2012, 03:24:44 PM
Well if they dislike the idea, there is also the argument that these rights exist by virtue of our humanity, and the human condition.
So there is an entirely secular and logical argument for self ownership that does not rest on faith or God.
Are we going to beat this dead horse again?
Whether these are God given rights, or basic rights of humanhood, is moot. The only place they are
guaranteed is in the good ole USA. Specific limitations were put on government to insure the rights of the individual. Well, they
used to be, and that was the intention anyway. :sad:
Quote from: kramarat on November 12, 2012, 03:31:04 PM
Are we going to beat this dead horse again?
I think it is worth a beating.
Nothing is more important than human rights, as it comes to political discussions.
Quote
Whether these are God given rights, or basic rights of humanhood, is moot. The only place they are guaranteed is in the good ole USA. Specific limitations were put on government to insure the rights of the individual. Well, they used to be, and that was the intention anyway. :sad:
It is not moot. It is very relevant to our situation.
And they maybe guaranteed in the US, but they are hardly protected there, nor have they been in our lifetimes.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on November 12, 2012, 03:45:52 PM
I think it is worth a beating.
Nothing is more important than human rights, as it comes to political discussions.
It is not moot. It is very relevant to our situation.
And they maybe guaranteed in the US, but they are hardly protected there, nor have they been in our lifetimes.
You guys go for it. We already did a long converation about whether these are God given rights or natural rights.
I'll sit this one out. :smile:
I posted this the last time around, and I am just fine with the interpretation of The Heritage Foundation. I can't argue with it, and I believe it was the true intent of the founders.
http://www.heritage.org/initiatives/first-principles/basics (http://www.heritage.org/initiatives/first-principles/basics)
Quote from: kramarat on November 12, 2012, 04:25:16 PM
You guys go for it. We already did a long converation about whether these are God given rights or natural rights.
I'll sit this one out. :smile:
Which side did you take, I honestly dont remember?
There wont be any one willing to "stand up" or "demand" certain rights in our current society , at least not yet.There will never be a revolution in our current state of society, things are too "comfortable" still , the average citizen even the poor live pretty easy lives that most take for granted. Right now in this counrty there is enough devide and anger to fuel it , take away the comforts and make it so there isnt as much to lose , or the right series of events and i could easily see people being willing to take up arms to "force" the goverment to demand there rights be respected .
The problem of tying "rights" to God, is the fact that whether or not God exists, there are a multitude of human concepts of what God is and which "rights" he confers to his believers.
Take Muslims. They believe that their God has given them the "right" to either kill or subjugate all non-believers. :confused:
Plus, some people don't believe in God - does that mean that they don't have any rights at all? :huh:
No, I believe that there is only one "right" - and that is a person's right to his/her own life. All other "rights" are derived from that.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on November 12, 2012, 07:06:52 PM
Which side did you take, I honestly dont remember?
I didn't take a side, I dropped out of the thread. :wink:
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 13, 2012, 12:49:52 AM
The problem of tying "rights" to God, is the fact that whether or not God exists, there are a multitude of human concepts of what God is and which "rights" he confers to his believers.
Take Muslims. They believe that their God has given them the "right" to either kill or subjugate all non-believers. :confused:
Plus, some people don't believe in God - does that mean that they don't have any rights at all? :huh:
No, I believe that there is only one "right" - and that is a person's right to his/her own life. All other "rights" are derived from that.
Put yourself in the era, taking a life was against Gods will and was seen as a direct ticket to Hell, so taking up arms without Gods blessing was out of the question.
For me, I do believe I have Gods blessing to protect and defend said rights and would have no qualms if the time should ever arise.
Others will see it as a duty and not wait.
God gives us lots of things, blessings. Guess what ? There are provisions to every one of them. Reading His word, if you pay attention, He will say, "i will give, grant, bless, in no way forget those that believe on my name". But, all of these are based on "if" you will do this or that and believe on His name. He gives His commandments and rules or laws in the Bible which really aren't that hard to follow. I believe the one thing He gave us that is totally free is the right to salvation and that by His obedience to His Father in dying for all of our sins on a cross.