Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 19, 2014, 09:17:44 AM
No, it's free market economics, namely by this organization, who I was told by a liberal has a far flung connection to the Koch Brothers. The Kochs contribute money and are board members of their umbrella organization.
May have, I had a Greek Keynesian professor who proclaimed twice in class "What's the problem with Socialism in America? It works GREAT in my country!"

Well, I knew that was BS at any rate, and this was before *his country* keeled over.
No, you've only listed Fiscal impacts, and what you mentioned is still mostly just yet more Fiscal impacts. For the crimes, you've gone to an extreme, and acted as if this is the typical behavior.

There are violent illegals, but as a population they aren't nearly so violent as natural-born Hispanic Americans. Or Black Americans for that matter.

In fact, Linda Chavez, who I saw at the Western Conservative Summit this year, spoke about the El Paso Miracle. A town that has had one of the lowest crime rates in the nation, several years running. 

They have a very large Immigrant population, much of whom aren't legal, and they sit directly across from Ciudad Juarez, and yet...

Give it a rest Slim.  Crimes committed by illegals are not extremes!  Prisons in California, Texas, Florida and Arizona are filled with them.  The scenario about illegals having children on American soil and us having to support both of them is not an extreme either.    Pass your college course and proceed onto real life.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 19, 2014, 07:02:40 AM
The American Enterprise Institute only found very small effect on wages.

A freakin blog, are you serious?

QuoteBritain, who has had for years a more "neo-liberal" immigration policy than us, saw unemployment shrink as their immigration rate grew.

Irrelevant! We're not Europe.

QuoteIn truth, either it's positive, or there is no connection between Immigration and unemployment.

To explain:

• A job is a zero-sum game, someone takes that job, that job is gone. But when you move to the plural, jobs, you now have to take into account what conditions help to generate jobs.
  
  Having more people, more ideas, more consumers as well as laborers, tends to makes that generating easier.
  Texas is the only State to see Illegal immigration grow since 2008. It's not hard to figure why.
  It was written by a Republican, who was Perry's replacement as the Texas Agriculture Commissioner. And the stated agenda was to find the opposite of what it concluded.

More bull shit, your blog link does not include the average uneducated illegal.'
From your very own link:
And what about jobs? A 2011 study from AEI and a Partnership For A New American Economy finds the following:

1. Immigrants with advanced degrees boost employment for US natives. This effect is most dramatic for immigrants with advanced degrees from US universities working in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) fields. The data comparing employment among the fifty states and the District of Columbia show that from 2000 to 2007, an additional 100 foreign-born workers in STEM fields with advanced degrees from US universities is associated with an additional 262 jobs among US natives. While the effect is biggest for US-educated immigrants working in STEM, immigrants with advanced degrees in general raised employment among US natives during 2000–2007: 

QuoteYeah, I get this is a hard pill to swallow, really I do. I have family in Arizona, they've seen the Cartel smugglers come past where they're at, and they live in Wickenburg, which ain't exactly a border town.

But at the same time, I'm obligated to say this: economics does not constrain itself to political desires, it has its own laws, and those must be applied to know what it says.

Wiki?
Posting a bunch of BS, in no way builds your case, in fact, no where do any of your "so called" studies take into account Federal taxes feeding the coffers of the state, without which, there wouldn't be an illegal invasion.

Take Tennessee and show me where the people of the state benefited.

All Tennessee's Employment Growth Since 2000 Has Gone to Immigrants; Yet, Natives Accounted for 60% of Population Growth
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101890969

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 19, 2014, 09:18:00 AM
Legal immigration has always required -

-You have sponsors who will bankroll and house and feed your ass until you can do it yourself
-You prove to not be disease-ridden, in an actual hospital; go home if you are
-You are not illiterate or retarded in some way, requiring a complete cognitive makeover at our cost
-You are not toting a whole gaggle of freeloaders, standing behind you, hiding in the bushes / border, or in your belly

Today, the illegals are loud & proud that they fail every one of these measures, and loudly demand their free fixes to every one of these conditions.

There is no way to intelligently claim that one is the same as the other, or in the same universe, financially or economically.

Washington (the state), says enforcement of Immigration laws there has cramped their high skilled labor.

So no, this is a myth on two counts:

1. That illegal immigrants aren't high skilled.

Indeed, almost half of illegal immigrants were once legal immigrants with visas, we brought them here because they had skills (it's also why nearly 40% of them are an Asian of some sort). They simply overstayed.

2. Low skilled immigrants don't offer value to the economy.

This was the last hurdle I had to cross. Just because a given worker may be low-skilled, does not mean they can't offer value.

In truth, the distinction of "low vs high" skilled is quite arbitrary, and didn't exist before the 1960s. To a business there are two workers, but it goes more like this: "There are those who make me money, and those who don't."

These companies are inviting the low-skilled immigrants right alongside the high skilled ones, so apparently, they think they're making money with them.

That's the market making a call about a market matter. That's not all there is to immigration, but on this issue, I was forced to concede it.

QuoteI note your smarmy distinction of finance and economics, and sniffy use of "heterodox"

No no, that wasn't off hand, that's an actual term for certain schools of thought who aren't: Keynesian, Monetarist, Or (Neo)Classical.

Usually, it's anyone who doesn't affirm the Laws of Supply & Demand, or at least not completely, like say the Marxists or the Georgists /Geoists or... something else.

Quote from: suzziY on August 19, 2014, 09:36:04 AM

Give it a rest Slim.  Crimes committed by illegals are not extremes!  Prisons

Quote Anecdotes, I won't stop you, but the actual incarceration rate of Foreign Hispanics, versus home grown Hispanics, is actually quite low, Foreign-born Mexicans don't even reach 1%, and the worst by far is Puerto Ricans (double that of Dominicans or Cubans), who by definition are American Citizens.

QuotePass your college course

The course? That was nearly a decade ago. Got an "A", if that means anything, I don't think it does considering who taught it.

Slim, I side with Andy and  duly announce that you are a mid 20's, arrogant yet ignorant, know-it-all that knows nothing of life or reality.

I have a hunch that a few wake up calls and a huge dose of reality awaits you.

Quote from: suzziY on August 19, 2014, 10:11:06 AM
Slim, I side with Andy and  duly announce that you are a mid 20's, arrogant yet ignorant, know-it-all that knows nothing of life or reality.

I have a hunch that a few wake up calls and a huge dose of reality awaits you.

That about sums it up.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 19, 2014, 09:59:44 AM
Quote Anecdotes, I won't stop you, but the actual incarceration rate of Foreign Hispanics, versus home grown Hispanics, is actually quite low, Foreign-born Mexicans don't even reach 1%, and the worst by far is Puerto Ricans (double that of Dominicans or Cubans), who by definition are American Citizens.
The course? That was nearly a decade ago. Got an "A", if that means anything, I don't think it does considering who taught it.

There is such a thing as getting so deep in the weeds that you can no longer see the big picture.

Don't get so enamored of hyper-focused stats, pet theories, technical (gee-ain't-I-smart) terms....that you forget to notice the obvious and logical.

Quote from: Solar on August 19, 2014, 09:41:44 AM
A freakin blog, are you serious?

It's AEI's blog, not a personal one.

QuoteIrrelevant! We're not Europe.

Fine, here's one across the entirety of the OECD.

QuoteMore bull shit, your blog link does not include the average uneducated illegal.

Hmmm, you're right, that isn't even the right link.... can't find it either.

Ah well, here's the full CATO Policy Analysis in any event.

QuoteGenerally, low-income immigrants have
lower rates of welfare use than low-income
native-born citizens and receive smaller
benefits when they are the beneficiaries.

However, all immigrants are more likely to
receive means-tested welfare benefits than
all native-born Americans because immigrants
are poorer on average

QuotePosting a bunch of BS, in no way builds your case, in fact, no where do any of your "so called" studies take into account Federal taxes feeding the coffers of the state,

I don't know if I'm following your claim here. Though Federal money does get into the hands of the state for a variety of reasons, I'm not certain how this works in regards to immigration policy, and I wasn't speaking on it.

Regardless, here is a source for Immigrants being a net boon to Medicare, and here is a source for Illegals specifically contributing to Social Security.

QuoteAll Tennessee's Employment Growth Since 2000 Has Gone to Immigrants; Yet, Natives Accounted for 60% of Population Growth
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101890969

It causes me to ask two questions:

1. Has out-of-state employment increased over this time as well?

2. What was picture before the Recession?


I ask the first, because it's quite possible Tennessee is "outsourcing" its workforce to other, more developed states.

I asked the second, because all too often people use the Recession as an excuse to forward their theories. It could be the Immigrants had their jobs, and the Americans had theirs too, but the Americans lost theirs when the recession hit.

I've seen people use the recession to say "Robots are replacing us, and not making new jobs", and I've seen Liberals use it so as to say "The Bush tax cuts created no jobs".

If were to analyze what the entirety of the economic business cycle does here, not just extrapolate temporary circumstances, then we need to control for it.

And indeed, we do have that data.

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 19, 2014, 10:35:15 AM
There is such a thing as getting so deep in the weeds that you can no longer see the big picture.

What "big picture"? Economically, it's in three parts.

There are two factors of production: labor and Capital.

We let Capital goes where it pleases, we let it go overseas to invest in foreign business ventures, we buy foreign capital to bring it back here, and we let Foreign Investors t place their capital in our businesses at their pleasure.

That is the Globalization of Capital, but for the economy to reach equilibrium while this goes on, labor too must in some respects be globalized. This both means more Americans working abroad, and more foreigners coming to work here.

That is the economic equation, and just the economic equation. When it comes to Sociology or Politics, those are different calculations, and I'm not at all claiming to know them nearly as well.

QuoteDon't get so enamored of hyper-focused stats, pet theories, technical (gee-ain't-I-smart) terms....

I don't say this because "I' am smart", I barley skew average.

My analysis is simply happenstance. You could all learn the same if you chose to invest the same amount of time I did into it. I' am not special, and I'm quite adjusted to that fact.

Quote from: suzziY on August 19, 2014, 10:11:06 AMI have a hunch that a few wake up calls and a huge dose of reality awaits you.

What I say now, was my wake up call. The full application of Natural Law, and Emergent order.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 19, 2014, 01:36:35 PM
What I say now, was my wake up call. The full application of Natural Law, and Emergent order.

Natural Law......Emergent Order......terms often spewed by the youthful anarchists and socialists.

Also reminds me of the other guy who claimed to be a really old lifelong conservative who was re-writing most of conservative doctrine.  And everybody was wrong and  he was right.

CPF vets.....who was that clown again ?   He was the biggest yakker of them all, very angry, massive posts.

You aren't him re-imagined, are you slim  ?

Quote from: suzziY on August 18, 2014, 06:02:11 PM
Perhaps you are all sick to death of the illegal immigration headlines, but brace yourselves for another round.  Better yet...perhaps a few phone calls to your reps are in order.  Definitely a government run amuck.  Obviously we are no longer the United States of America, but rather the United States of Central America and Mexico.  Peachy!  No one except Rick Perry seems to be doing a damn thing about it. 

Official: Second illegal immigrant wave of 30,000 coming in September, October


"A second wave of some 30,000 unaccompanied illegal minors from violence-ravaged Central American nations is expected to swamp the U.S.-Mexico border in September and October, a crisis that could be worse than the one that has already pushed 62,000 children into the U.S., according to a top immigration group.

"Right now it's just too hard for them to cross, but we expect when it cools down a little bit in August or in September, October, we'll see another surge again," said Tiffany Nelms with the U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants, a key support group handling the current crisis. A second wave will pressure border agents and support groups far more than the previous surge when 62,000 arrived over six months....

...But, she added, the U.S. Office of Refugee Resettlement has been working overtime to find housing for the anticipated second wave.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/official-second-illegal-immigrant-wave-of-30000-coming-in-september-october/article/2552029

Excellent! Right before the election.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 19, 2014, 01:07:42 PM
Generally, low-income immigrants have
lower rates of welfare use than low-income
native-born citizens and receive smaller
benefits when they are the beneficiaries.

However, all immigrants are more likely to
receive means-tested welfare benefits than
all native-born Americans because immigrants
are poorer on average

OK, cut the bull shit, no one here is buying it!
We're talking about a wave of uneducated illegals coming into the country, people whom have absolutely no source of income.
And here you are trying to convince us they're not a drain on the economy. Really? Do you honestly think we're that stupid?

Wake up and see the real world, not a bunch of agenda driven stats.
There is absolutely no way in the world these people will ever repay the burden they place on the taxpayer, they're being encouraged to come, because the Marxists want two things, a voter base, and a way to dilute the American culture.

One other point, if you have something you want read, then post a damned excerpt, not some link to something you want us to waste our time reading to figure out your point.
That's not debating, that's just the act of an irritating kid.

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 19, 2014, 02:27:04 PM
Natural Law......Emergent Order......terms often spewed by the youthful anarchists and socialists.

Then let's get to Brass Tacks.

What We Believe: Natural Law.

Emergent Order.

Quote from: Solar on August 19, 2014, 03:48:36 PM
OK, cut the bull shit, no one here is buying it!

What "bull shit"?

Most immigrants who came here in the 19th century were illiterate and low-skilled, they still formed the backbone of this nation.

You're complaining about Mexicans now, being the same as Italians a 100 years ago. Somehow we muddle through it then, so why exactly do you think we can't do so now?

What's more, it's irrefutable immigration then grew our economy, so why would immigration now fail to do so?

QuoteWe're talking about a wave of uneducated illegals coming into the country, people whom have absolutely no source of income.

They have a worker participation rate of 93%. Somehow, they find the work, and they find it more consistently then Legal immigrants or the Native Born.

Indeed, this is why Milton Friedman likened Illegal immigration to pre-1914 immigration, calling it "immigration to jobs", whereas the legal sort was more likely to be the "immigration to welfare".

QuoteAnd here you are trying to convince us they're not a drain on the economy. Really? Do you honestly think we're that stupid?

You're once again confusing Fiscal concerns, with Economic ones.

Unless you think the Government is the economy, yes, this is wrong.

QuoteOne other point, if you have something you want read, then post a damned excerpt,

Fair enough.