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Author Topic: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it  (Read 743 times)

Offline Sharpbb14

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12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« on: December 18, 2020, 10:04:04 AM »
New to the forum for this specific question...  I understand the 12th amendment pretty well (at least i think I do), but maybe someone on here can clear something up for me on what POTUS' play is on Jan 6th.  I have a strong hunch that there will be the required house member and senate member that will contest the electors in the battleground states, which would spark an immediate debate and vote in the separate houses.  The way I understand it, the house and senate will vote independently of each other to accept the original electors or decline them.  If both the house and senate vote those electors down, then they will be disregarded from the total elector count for Biden with the hope of getting him below 270 and then allowing congress to decide the next president.  My question comes; when the vote for whether the contested electors will stand or not, it is by majority, and not by state delegation as when the house chooses the next president. From what I understand, if each house member votes along their party line, then the electors will stand since the house is Dem controlled, which will keep the electors where it is and allowing Biden as the next president, God forbid!  What am I missing? What is the play here?

Offline Solar

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2020, 10:09:15 AM »
Each State gets one Electoral vote.
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Offline Sharpbb14

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2020, 10:49:41 AM »
Yes, I know that each state gets one elector vote if each candidate ends up with below 270 at which time the house will get 1 vote per state, but I am referring to when the house and senate separately debate on whether to accept or decline the contested electors.  During that debate, each person gets their own vote as it occurred in 2005 when ohio's electors were objected, and the majority of the house, which ended up being a house majority of 267-32 to shoot down the objection. 

Offline Owebo

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2020, 11:04:31 AM »
Yes, I know that each state gets one elector vote if each candidate ends up with below 270 at which time the house will get 1 vote per state, but I am referring to when the house and senate separately debate on whether to accept or decline the contested electors.  During that debate, each person gets their own vote as it occurred in 2005 when ohio's electors were objected, and the majority of the house, which ended up being a house majority of 267-32 to shoot down the objection.

Of course the objections will be shot down...

First things first, stop watching/listening to the MSM, they have no clue what is going on...this is not 2005, that was a stunt pulled by democrats.

Upon objection in the House, Pence will find that both candidates exceed  270 EVs and that the EC is invalid.  He will return it to the House for the States to vote.

Online T Hunt

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2020, 11:25:32 AM »
New to the forum for this specific question...  I understand the 12th amendment pretty well (at least i think I do), but maybe someone on here can clear something up for me on what POTUS' play is on Jan 6th.  I have a strong hunch that there will be the required house member and senate member that will contest the electors in the battleground states, which would spark an immediate debate and vote in the separate houses.  The way I understand it, the house and senate will vote independently of each other to accept the original electors or decline them.  If both the house and senate vote those electors down, then they will be disregarded from the total elector count for Biden with the hope of getting him below 270 and then allowing congress to decide the next president.  My question comes; when the vote for whether the contested electors will stand or not, it is by majority, and not by state delegation as when the house chooses the next president. From what I understand, if each house member votes along their party line, then the electors will stand since the house is Dem controlled, which will keep the electors where it is and allowing Biden as the next president, God forbid!  What am I missing? What is the play here?

To be direct, Yes, when the electors are contested it is the house delegations that vote on the electors status, not the normal house reps. So each state gets one vote, 30 trump 20 biden (trump wins even if some red states vote RINO).

Plus dont forget that it is Pence who actually counts the votes. He can do whatever he wants.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 11:36:42 AM by T Hunt »

Offline ModelCitizen

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2020, 11:26:09 AM »
New to the forum for this specific question...  I understand the 12th amendment pretty well (at least i think I do), but maybe someone on here can clear something up for me on what POTUS' play is on Jan 6th.  I have a strong hunch that there will be the required house member and senate member that will contest the electors in the battleground states, which would spark an immediate debate and vote in the separate houses.  The way I understand it, the house and senate will vote independently of each other to accept the original electors or decline them.  If both the house and senate vote those electors down, then they will be disregarded from the total elector count for Biden with the hope of getting him below 270 and then allowing congress to decide the next president.  My question comes; when the vote for whether the contested electors will stand or not, it is by majority, and not by state delegation as when the house chooses the next president. From what I understand, if each house member votes along their party line, then the electors will stand since the house is Dem controlled, which will keep the electors where it is and allowing Biden as the next president, God forbid!  What am I missing? What is the play here?

To answer your question, it's an individual vote in each chamber.

"The House ultimately rejected O’Hara and Muskie’s objection, 228 to 170, as did the Senate, 58 to 33. When Congress resumed the Joint Session at 4:45 p.m., Senator Russell announced that “the original certificate submitted by the State of North Carolina will be counted and provided therein.”

https://history.house.gov/Blog/2020/November/11-17-Faithless-Electors/


This was a good read as well...

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL32717/12

Offline Sharpbb14

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2020, 11:30:11 AM »
I appreciate the advice, but I don't watch any of the MSM.  The information is from reading the amendment itself and seeing what history has shown as far as how the constitution interpretation had played out.  I pray you are correct about what Pence could do, but what is stopping Pelosi or the powers in place in the house to forcing a vote with when they debate the contested "certified" electors. 

Offline Sharpbb14

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2020, 11:32:23 AM »
I appreciate y'alls input.  It's hard to sort it all out.  Praying is our best tool to allow our savior to sort it all out.  He loves truth, and I pray that is what is revealed.

Offline ModelCitizen

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2020, 11:33:20 AM »
New to the forum for this specific question...  I understand the 12th amendment pretty well (at least i think I do), but maybe someone on here can clear something up for me on what POTUS' play is on Jan 6th.  I have a strong hunch that there will be the required house member and senate member that will contest the electors in the battleground states, which would spark an immediate debate and vote in the separate houses.  The way I understand it, the house and senate will vote independently of each other to accept the original electors or decline them.  If both the house and senate vote those electors down, then they will be disregarded from the total elector count for Biden with the hope of getting him below 270 and then allowing congress to decide the next president.  My question comes; when the vote for whether the contested electors will stand or not, it is by majority, and not by state delegation as when the house chooses the next president. From what I understand, if each house member votes along their party line, then the electors will stand since the house is Dem controlled, which will keep the electors where it is and allowing Biden as the next president, God forbid!  What am I missing? What is the play here?

this is an even more recent example of your question...from 2005

"If there is an objection to an elector or electors on January 6, 2021, there is a recent precedent. In January 2005, Representative Stephanie Tubbs Jones and Senator Barbara Boxer objected to Ohio’s electoral votes for George W. Bush, alleging “they were not in all known circumstances regularly given.” The House and Senate met separately as required and using a roll call vote the objections were widely rejected. The House denied the objection in 31-267 vote, and the Senate denied it in a 1-74 vote."

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/explaining-how-congress-settles-electoral-college-disputes

Online T Hunt

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2020, 11:42:42 AM »
New to the forum for this specific question...  I understand the 12th amendment pretty well (at least i think I do), but maybe someone on here can clear something up for me on what POTUS' play is on Jan 6th.  I have a strong hunch that there will be the required house member and senate member that will contest the electors in the battleground states, which would spark an immediate debate and vote in the separate houses.  The way I understand it, the house and senate will vote independently of each other to accept the original electors or decline them.  If both the house and senate vote those electors down, then they will be disregarded from the total elector count for Biden with the hope of getting him below 270 and then allowing congress to decide the next president.  My question comes; when the vote for whether the contested electors will stand or not, it is by majority, and not by state delegation as when the house chooses the next president. From what I understand, if each house member votes along their party line, then the electors will stand since the house is Dem controlled, which will keep the electors where it is and allowing Biden as the next president, God forbid!  What am I missing? What is the play here?

Also dont forget that even if the house voted to keep bidens electors the senate wont, and there has never been a case where the two disagreed.

Not to mention Trumps electors are just as legit as bidens, moreso really. So if both houses dont vote to remove them then they count as well. So if neither electors are removed then both Trump and biden have over 270 and it goes to the house delegation as if neither did. Trump wins either way.

Offline ModelCitizen

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2020, 11:58:38 AM »
Also dont forget that even if the house voted to keep bidens electors the senate wont, and there has never been a case where the two disagreed.

Not to mention Trumps electors are just as legit as bidens, moreso really. So if both houses dont vote to remove them then they count as well. So if neither electors are removed then both Trump and biden have over 270 and it goes to the house delegation as if neither did. Trump wins either way.

"When the two houses disagree, then the statute states that the votes of the electors whose appointment was certified by the governor of the state shall be counted. "

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL32717/12

Offline Owebo

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2020, 12:08:15 PM »
this is an even more recent example of your question...from 2005

"If there is an objection to an elector or electors on January 6, 2021, there is a recent precedent. In January 2005, Representative Stephanie Tubbs Jones and Senator Barbara Boxer objected to Ohio’s electoral votes for George W. Bush, alleging “they were not in all known circumstances regularly given.” The House and Senate met separately as required and using a roll call vote the objections were widely rejected. The House denied the objection in 31-267 vote, and the Senate denied it in a 1-74 vote."

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/explaining-how-congress-settles-electoral-college-disputes

2005 was a democrat stand and has no relevance to current events....

Offline Sharpbb14

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2020, 12:11:05 PM »
T hunt,  The way it works from my understanding is if Biden's electors are contested there are 3 outcomes: 1) If both houses approve the objections, then the electors will be thrown out lowering his total count.  2) if both house disapprove the objections, then the electors stand.  3) if the house and senate disagree (1 approving and 1 disapproving) then the electors stand.   IE:  Both would have to approve the objections to throw out that slate of electors... What are your thoughts?

Offline Solar

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2020, 12:13:39 PM »
Yes, I know that each state gets one elector vote if each candidate ends up with below 270 at which time the house will get 1 vote per state, but I am referring to when the house and senate separately debate on whether to accept or decline the contested electors.  During that debate, each person gets their own vote as it occurred in 2005 when ohio's electors were objected, and the majority of the house, which ended up being a house majority of 267-32 to shoot down the objection.
I was just cutting through all the BS. In the end, that's what it comes down to. But to be honest, I don't think it's going to get to that point.

Trump is putting the fear of God in Biden as we speak in their private meeting, explaining to him what will happen if he follows through with this theft. We may see the insurrection Act instituted shortly.
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Online T Hunt

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Re: 12 Amendement and Trump's play at it
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2020, 03:51:00 PM »
To be direct, Yes, when the electors are contested it is the house delegations that vote on the electors status, not the normal house reps. So each state gets one vote, 30 trump 20 biden (trump wins even if some red states vote RINO).

Plus dont forget that it is Pence who actually counts the votes. He can do whatever he wants.

Found some clarification on this...






So basically if pence does his job the states with contested elections cannot have their electors counted either way, none get to 270, it goes to house delegations, trump wins.

 

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