Quote from: daidalos on June 27, 2015, 06:47:42 PM
First off, gays being able to marry, is NOT persecution. If you think it is you have zero clue what real persecution for the faith is.

Second, Christianity, as all religions should and is supposed to be on the margins already. We don't have state religions in the U.S.

Lastly, again, when government decided to take what for thousands of years had been a purely religious ceremony/function/contract/union etc...And made it an official government function. In absolute disregard for the separation of the Church and the State. Government also extended to those who marry certain rights, which for many many years now, have been denied to some in our society. And which to hear those who think this is persecution for Christ tell it, that's the way it still should be.

Those rights, should only be afforded to a select few, and only then, if they make a choice, which Christians themselves agree with.

Frankly, as a Bible Believing Christian myself, I"m sort of a little tired of seeing so called Christians who think that somehow the sin of homosexuality is the greatest evil of all time, (when the Bible clearly says it's not) who think and run around telling us all how homosexuals should be discriminated against, because they're engaging in "abomination to God" all the while ignoring the FACT that God expressly states many times over in the scripture that ALL sin is abomination to God. Not just that one. And who sit around, telling us that the scriptures, and our religious choice should also be political policy.

As if the Church, should also be the State.

Well sorry America isn't supposed to work that way. And Christians, should be the last people, to wish to deny rights and equality under the law to someone else. Frankly at this point, what we need to see, is not preachers, using the pulpit to push politics.

No what we need are ministers who aren't afraid to tell people that there's more to the Bible than just John 3:16. There's more to God and the Bible than just what makes ya "feel good". And that the principle of equality for all under the law, is also one which just happens to have originated with the God of the Bible. IE: For all have sinned and are fallen short of the glory of God. Sound familiar, it should, it's God telling us all, that not one of us is perfect, that we are all equal in Gods eyes.

And in the most bad of ways, we need ministers who are willing to stand up, and tell their own flocks, that church, is not and does not exist to function as a country club, or a rock concert/sunday morning entertainment. And lastly to put it bluntly, I'm personally about fed up  with hearing about how gay's marrying is somehow a threat to the Christian religion/church.

When the fact of the matter is, A, there isn't a single lawsuit anyplace trying to force a church to marry anyone. There isn't a single case/lawsuit where a Church which won't do so, is being denied tax exemption status.

And the Bible itself, tells us, that the Church, has in it's past, and will again in it's future face real threats, as opposed to this made up, and self serving "threat" posed by gays marrying one another. ROFL.

So... does God owe an apology to Sodom and  Gomorrah?   

Quote from: daidalos on June 27, 2015, 06:47:42 PM
First off, gays being able to marry, is NOT persecution. If you think it is you have zero clue what real persecution for the faith is.

Second, Christianity, as all religions should and is supposed to be on the margins already. We don't have state religions in the U.S.

Lastly, again, when government decided to take what for thousands of years had been a purely religious ceremony/function/contract/union etc...And made it an official government function. In absolute disregard for the separation of the Church and the State. Government also extended to those who marry certain rights, which for many many years now, have been denied to some in our society. And which to hear those who think this is persecution for Christ tell it, that's the way it still should be.

Those rights, should only be afforded to a select few, and only then, if they make a choice, which Christians themselves agree with.

Frankly, as a Bible Believing Christian myself, I"m sort of a little tired of seeing so called Christians who think that somehow the sin of homosexuality is the greatest evil of all time, (when the Bible clearly says it's not) who think and run around telling us all how homosexuals should be discriminated against, because they're engaging in "abomination to God" all the while ignoring the FACT that God expressly states many times over in the scripture that ALL sin is abomination to God. Not just that one. And who sit around, telling us that the scriptures, and our religious choice should also be political policy.

As if the Church, should also be the State.

Well sorry America isn't supposed to work that way. And Christians, should be the last people, to wish to deny rights and equality under the law to someone else. Frankly at this point, what we need to see, is not preachers, using the pulpit to push politics.

No what we need are ministers who aren't afraid to tell people that there's more to the Bible than just John 3:16. There's more to God and the Bible than just what makes ya "feel good". And that the principle of equality for all under the law, is also one which just happens to have originated with the God of the Bible. IE: For all have sinned and are fallen short of the glory of God. Sound familiar, it should, it's God telling us all, that not one of us is perfect, that we are all equal in Gods eyes.

And in the most bad of ways, we need ministers who are willing to stand up, and tell their own flocks, that church, is not and does not exist to function as a country club, or a rock concert/sunday morning entertainment. And lastly to put it bluntly, I'm personally about fed up  with hearing about how gay's marrying is somehow a threat to the Christian religion/church.

When the fact of the matter is, A, there isn't a single lawsuit anyplace trying to force a church to marry anyone. There isn't a single case/lawsuit where a Church which won't do so, is being denied tax exemption status.

And the Bible itself, tells us, that the Church, has in it's past, and will again in it's future face real threats, as opposed to this made up, and self serving "threat" posed by gays marrying one another. ROFL.

Can you tell me WHAT right Homosexuals are being denied by Christians? I'm sure you mean we need to accept the Secular State's REDEFINITION of the word "marriage."

Sorry, they have the right to marry -- anyone of the OPPOSITE sex since THAT is the definition of marriage. But as a "Bible believing Christian", you already know your Lord & Saviour already defined marriage for us. It ain't what the Supremes have declared it to be.

"When the fact of the matter is, A, there isn't a single lawsuit anyplace trying to force a church to marry anyone. There isn't a single case/lawsuit where a Church which won't do so, is being denied tax exemption status."

Your "faith" in the LBGT movement is naive and absolutely breathtaking. I have already seen posts from leaders of that movement that Pastors must be made to enforce the new law

Quote from: je_freedom on June 26, 2015, 08:04:29 AM
Leftists always say, "We're just asking for this one modest change."  It's always a lie.  Every demand the left makes is to position themselves to make their next demand.

"Gay marriage" is just one step of the leftists' agenda.  Once that gets established nationwide, the next argument will be for "equal adoption rights."  "Don't discriminate against same sex couples when adopting out children" will be the argument.

This is, of course, a bad idea.  Libraries full of studies show that children grow up into emotionally healthy adults most reliably when they have a mother and a father in the home.

This coming campaign for "non-discrimination" will put adults' pleasure ahead of children's health.


Why would leftists want to do this?

It's part of a larger war against the family.

Leftists worship government.  Leftists see every other institution of society (family, church, business, etc.) as a competitor for power and influence.  Leftists want ALL of everyone's allegiance to be to the government.  Remember the theme of the Democrats' 2012 Convention: "Government is the one thing we all belong to."

They've propagandized and legislated the church into irrelevance.  (Senator Lyndon Johnson (D-TX) sponsored the IRS Act of 1954, which, in violation of the First Amendment, forbids churches from criticizing public policy.  It says that churches must stop saying what the Bible says about an issue whenever the politicians have decided to disregard the Bible and the historic lessons it contains.)

Their war on business is obvious.  Taxes and regulations already heavily hinder business.  Their ultimate goal is to nationalize all industry.  No free enterprise.  (At least none of any significance.  They might allow some small shops to exist, to draw attention away from the fact that they've seized all the industries of any importance.)

Their war on the family has been going on for decades.  "Sexual freedom" has spawned millions of babies to unwed mothers, who depend on government for everything.  The drug culture promoted by the media destroys the home life of many of those babies, giving the government an excuse to take custody of the babies.

And now, adoption by same sex couples will divert many of those babies from being adopted into traditional families, with their centuries-long allegiances, and into same sex "families" who already tend to look to government for everything.

The leftists' goal is to erode every institution of society other than government into irrelevance, and ultimately, out of existence.

For some of our newer folks here I'll say this again.

Getting the Supreme Court to declare homosexual marriage to be a "right" has nothing to do with "who you love". It has everything to do with destroying traditional Christianity.

Now, every Christian Church who fails to perform a homosexual marriage will be sued into oblivion! The ones who don't will so water down their dogma as to be impotent.

This has always been the end game of the Statists - destroy the churches!

I do think they have over-extended their reach on this one though. Though I haven't identify as one for quite sometime, Christians are a resielent, and dedicated lot. At times they can seem to be wishy-washy, be cause they believe in the "Turn the other cheek", thing. But, they only turn that cheek so many times. There comes a time when every Christian will draw a line in the sand and say - "No More!"

Remember, Christians as a group, survived being fed to the lions by the Romans and the excesses of Caligula's reign of terror. They've withstood the oppressions of the Communist scourge of the 20th Century in places like the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Vietnam and Red China.

When secular oppression is at its worst, Christianity is at its best.

It's not over yet! Not by a long shot!

Quote from: MichaelJ on June 28, 2015, 07:31:26 AM
"When the fact of the matter is, A, there isn't a single lawsuit anyplace trying to force a church to marry anyone. There isn't a single case/lawsuit where a Church which won't do so, is being denied tax exemption status."

Your "faith" in the LBGT movement is naive and absolutely breathtaking. I have already seen posts from leaders of that movement that Pastors must be made to enforce the new law

Not true, there is now a lawsuit overseas.  IF they win it will be the same in the U.S. in no time. 

Quote
1 Aug 2013 Gay couple to sue church over gay marriage opt-out

http://www.christian.org.uk/news/gay-couple-to-sue-church-over-gay-marriage-opt-out/

http://www.essexchronicle.co.uk/Gay-dads-set-sue-church-sex-marriage-opt/story-19597954-detail/story.html

Quote from: daidalos on June 27, 2015, 06:47:42 PM
First off, gays being able to marry, is NOT persecution. If you think it is you have zero clue what real persecution for the faith is.

No, but the Federal Government enforcing that "right" will be.

QuoteSecond, Christianity, as all religions should and is supposed to be on the margins already. We don't have state religions in the U.S.

The Federal Government cannot establish a religion, true, but neither can it deny the practice of religion. The individual states can (and several have had in the past) official state religions. Since the 1st Amendment's "Establishment Clause" specifically mentions Congress (and only Congress) this does not violate the Constitution. 

QuoteLastly, again, when government decided to take what for thousands of years had been a purely religious ceremony/function/contract/union etc...And made it an official government function. In absolute disregard for the separation of the Church and the State. Government also extended to those who marry certain rights, which for many many years now, have been denied to some in our society. And which to hear those who think this is persecution for Christ tell it, that's the way it still should be.

The so-called "Separation of Church and State" is a myth. You will not find that phrase in any of our founding documents. In reality, the concept has been turned on its head. Our founders weren't so much concerned with religion interfering with the State but, rather, they were deathly afraid of the State interfering with religion!

QuoteThose rights, should only be afforded to a select few, and only then, if they make a choice, which Christians themselves agree with.

If "rights" are doled out by the Government, then they are not, as the Declaration of Independence claimed - unalienable. Rights come from God, not from the State. The reason for this is simple. What the State gives, the State can just as easily take away.

For the record - there is no "right" to marry - for anyone!

QuoteFrankly, as a Bible Believing Christian myself, I"m sort of a little tired of seeing so called Christians who think that somehow the sin of homosexuality is the greatest evil of all time, (when the Bible clearly says it's not) who think and run around telling us all how homosexuals should be discriminated against, because they're engaging in "abomination to God" all the while ignoring the FACT that God expressly states many times over in the scripture that ALL sin is abomination to God. Not just that one. And who sit around, telling us that the scriptures, and our religious choice should also be political policy.

What part of "abomination" don't you understand?

QuoteAs if the Church, should also be the State.

Ever heard of The Church of England? 

QuoteWell sorry America isn't supposed to work that way. And Christians, should be the last people, to wish to deny rights and equality under the law to someone else. Frankly at this point, what we need to see, is not preachers, using the pulpit to push politics.

Okay, let's get this rights and equality bullshit out of the way.

As I've already proved, there is no such thing as a "Right to Marry" - marriage can be denied to people for a plethora of reasons - a father can't marry his daughter, a mother can't marry her son, a brother can't marry his sister, and in most states except West Virginia, 1st cousins aren't allowed to marry. Remember, a "Right" can't be infringed on or denied by the State.

So, marriage is NOT a right.

Now, as to the so-called equality part of the equation. Marriage as defined by the State, has nothing to do with "who one loves". That doesn't even enter into the equation.

As a heterosexual male, I can only marry one woman (at a time)

A homosexual male, can only marry one woman (at a time)

As a hetero sexual male, I can not marry another male.

A homosexual male can not marry another male.

That, my friend, is the very definition of "equality".

QuoteNo what we need are ministers who aren't afraid to tell people that there's more to the Bible than just John 3:16. There's more to God and the Bible than just what makes ya "feel good". And that the principle of equality for all under the law, is also one which just happens to have originated with the God of the Bible. IE: For all have sinned and are fallen short of the glory of God. Sound familiar, it should, it's God telling us all, that not one of us is perfect, that we are all equal in Gods eyes.

And, yet, you ignore the fact that Christians (and Jews) opposition to Homosexual Marriage is based on that very same Bible!

QuoteAnd in the most bad of ways, we need ministers who are willing to stand up, and tell their own flocks, that church, is not and does not exist to function as a country club, or a rock concert/sunday morning entertainment. And lastly to put it bluntly, I'm personally about fed up  with hearing about how gay's marrying is somehow a threat to the Christian religion/church.

When the fact of the matter is, A, there isn't a single lawsuit anyplace trying to force a church to marry anyone. There isn't a single case/lawsuit where a Church which won't do so, is being denied tax exemption status.

Yet...

QuoteAnd the Bible itself, tells us, that the Church, has in it's past, and will again in it's future face real threats, as opposed to this made up, and self serving "threat" posed by gays marrying one another. ROFL.

Most Germans didn't think their country was facing a crisis as the NAZIs rose to power. After all, they weren't Jews and Chancellor Hitler made the trains run on time. What's not to love?

People  are talking about voting for gay rights..................
In this liberal hole the judge voted for us.

Quote from: kroz on June 28, 2015, 04:43:26 AM
So... does God owe an apology to Sodom and  Gomorrah?

No more so than the Hittites, or Egyptians, or the city of Tyre whom he also wiped out, for turning their backs on God and sin.

Quote from: daidalos on June 28, 2015, 12:17:46 PM
No more so than the Hittites, or Egyptians, or the city of Tyre whom he also wiped out, for turning their backs on God and sin.

BUT.... Sodom and Gomorrah were only cited for the sin of homosexuality.

If all sin are equal to God He would have destroyed every city and hamlet.  Homosexuality is particularly abominable to God because it attempts to circumvent His plan for man.  Marriage was established for the purpose of healthy procreation.  It provides the optimal environment for raising children.  There is a scriptural structure to every marriage according to God's design.  Homosexuality is a direct affront to God's sovereign plan for His creation.  That is why it is frequently called an abomination!

Quote from: darroll on June 28, 2015, 10:45:13 AM
People  are talking about voting for gay rights..................
In this liberal hole the judge voted for us.

They didn't vote for, neither did the Supremes IMPOSE upon us, "rights." They imposed a new definition of marriage.

I'm also tired of hearing that Homo Marriage has been "legalized." It has not. They've always been free to find a lesbian "preacher" (yeah they exist), who would perform a ceremony and declare them "married."

This is about the State changing the definition of a ceremony and RECOGNIZING their status as "married." But it hasn't been ILLEGAL as most libtards want you to believe.  It's about GODvernment RECOGNITION.

Quote from: carlb on June 28, 2015, 07:26:25 AM
Can you tell me WHAT right Homosexuals are being denied by Christians? I'm sure you mean we need to accept the Secular State's REDEFINITION of the word "marriage."

Sorry, they have the right to marry -- anyone of the OPPOSITE sex since THAT is the definition of marriage. But as a "Bible believing Christian", you already know your Lord & Saviour already defined marriage for us. It ain't what the Supremes have declared it to be.

Actually yes, we are supposed to accept that precisely that. As I have pointed out for days now, no one twisted the arm of the Congress to meddle in a religious institution. In violation of the first amendment. However since Congress did though, and since the Congress decided that not only should certain rights, such as the right of inheritance etc...and then further decided that certain tax laws will apply to those who enter into that union.

Congress opened the door to the 14th amendment, and precisely why we have the ruling we have today.  As for insisting that since the Lord, God of Abraham Issac and Jacob says a marriage is between a man and a woman, that same Bible says, a woman on her menstrus can't live in the same house as her husband. That same Bible says that a child who backtalks their parents, is to be stoned to death.

That same Bible says, telling a lie, is as bad in God's eyes, as rape or murder. Should we enact those as law as well?

What about the texts of other "religions"?

I would point out, that the same exact standard could be applied/enacted/done with Islam for example.

And give us Sharia law, and Sharia courts instead of our traditional Representative Constitutional Republic, where the rule of law, and not this or that particular church doctrine is the paramount law of the land.

This is why it's a real, and very big issue, when the Government violates the first prohibition imposed upon it by the Constitution which enumerates what we call "separation of church and state".

Quote from: Darth Fife on June 28, 2015, 07:47:57 AM
For some of our newer folks here I'll say this again.

Getting the Supreme Court to declare homosexual marriage to be a "right" has nothing to do with "who you love". It has everything to do with destroying traditional Christianity.

Now, every Christian Church who fails to perform a homosexual marriage will be sued into oblivion! The ones who don't will so water down their dogma as to be impotent.

This has always been the end game of the Statists - destroy the churches!

I do think they have over-extended their reach on this one though. Though I haven't identify as one for quite sometime, Christians are a resielent, and dedicated lot. At times they can seem to be wishy-washy, be cause they believe in the "Turn the other cheek", thing. But, they only turn that cheek so many times. There comes a time when every Christian will draw a line in the sand and say - "No More!"

Remember, Christians as a group, survived being fed to the lions by the Romans and the excesses of Caligula's reign of terror. They've withstood the oppressions of the Communist scourge of the 20th Century in places like the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Vietnam and Red China.

When secular oppression is at its worst, Christianity is at its best.

It's not over yet! Not by a long shot!

Rubbish, utter pure rubbish, here's why.

1: God has already said his  Church is eternal.

2: God's word, makes no distinction at all, between the sin of being gay, and the sin of telling a white lie, or the sin of stealing an ink pen from the office.

3: Gay marriage, simply isn't the way, God tells us his church will be persecuted. Really if you who claim Christ want the nation to enact laws, based upon what the Bible says.

Then at least, please be honest about what the Bible actually says. And spare us all, these nonsensical, emotionally driven, bogus arguments. Like this one, that gay marriage is an "attack on Christianity" or somehow a real "threat" to "Gods people" as for example Huckabee has been out there spouting off about. Bluntly put, not only is it a lie, (and thus a sin itself) to make these claims.

But, such emotionally driven, illogical, self serving arguments as those, make those who are supposedly conservative.

Sound like the Clintons, and Obama's we all dislike politically so much.

Quote from: daidalos on June 28, 2015, 08:46:41 PM
Rubbish, utter pure rubbish, here's why.

1: God has already said his  Church is eternal.

2: God's word, makes no distinction at all, between the sin of being gay, and the sin of telling a white lie, or the sin of stealing an ink pen from the office.

3: Gay marriage, simply isn't the way, God tells us his church will be persecuted. Really if you who claim Christ want the nation to enact laws, based upon what the Bible says.

Then at least, please be honest about what the Bible actually says. And spare us all, these nonsensical, emotionally driven, bogus arguments. Like this one, that gay marriage is an "attack on Christianity" or somehow a real "threat" to "Gods people" as for example Huckabee has been out there spouting off about. Bluntly put, not only is it a lie, (and thus a sin itself) to make these claims.

But, such emotionally driven, illogical, self serving arguments as those, make those who are supposedly conservative.

Sound like the Clintons, and Obama's we all dislike politically so much.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Yes, the Church is eternal. It was eternal even as the Roman were feeding Christian to the lions in the Coliseum!

I'm talking about the ability of Christians to practice their faith freely, without fear, and to act on their beliefs and be an effective force for good in this country.

The aim of the Gay Agenda is to destroy the political viability of organized Christianity. It is a puppet of the Marxists.

If Gays voted in large numbers for Republicans, homosexuality would still be classified as a mental illness, and anyone who brought up the topic of "gay rights" would be ridiculed mercilessly by the Liberal media, the Entertainment Industry and the Democrats.

Every Marxist revolution has been accompanied by an undermining of traditional Christianity.

The Church is eternal. The nation which protects the rights of the members of the Church has no such guarantee.

Quote from: kroz on June 28, 2015, 12:30:21 PM
BUT.... Sodom and Gomorrah were only cited for the sin of homosexuality.

If all sin are equal to God He would have destroyed every city and hamlet.  Homosexuality is particularly abominable to God because it attempts to circumvent His plan for man.  Marriage was established for the purpose of healthy procreation.  It provides the optimal environment for raising children.  There is a scriptural structure to every marriage according to God's design.  Homosexuality is a direct affront to God's sovereign plan for His creation.  That is why it is frequently called an abomination!

https://www.foundersfcu.com/home.aspx
Without going into further detail, you have got the exact take on what homosexuality is.  God is no liar and we have allowed ourselves to be put in this situation by our failure to suppress this terrible event.  There will be terrible consequences for all of us thanx to the evil administration we are under.  God hates all sin but sexual sins are particularly hated by him and for the reasons you cited. 

I often hear people who say Christians are too judgemental, relate  the story where Jesus is talking about the woman adulterer and he told the mob "he who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone" so therefore we are not to judge. HOWEVER they choose to overlook the  finish of the story where Jesus says "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more". That is telling us that everyone sins, and can be forgiven, but if you continue to practice that sin, without repentance (changing), then you will be condemned. Is it not our duty as Christians to point this out in hopes they will repent and change their sinful ways? If you continue to willfully practice a sin, then you must repent and change or else you have no real interest in salvation