Was Religious Freedom Meant to Apply Equally to Foreign Cultures?

Started by carlb, September 18, 2015, 08:20:15 PM

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carlb

the real object of the [First] amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government(1833, 3:728, emp. added).


Indeed, in a republic, there would seem to be a peculiar propriety in viewing the Christian religion, as the great basis, on which it must rest for its support and permanence, if it be, what it has ever been deemed by its truest friends to be, the religion of liberty.

An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation

je_freedom

I tracked down the quotation provided in the original post.
It's from Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice appointed by James Madison in 1811,
and founder of the Harvard Law School.
It's in his book, Original Intent, published in 1833.

It appears that his view may be an outlier among early Americans.
At least three articles cite several sources that indicate this:
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/dec/16/bryan-fischer/fundamentalist-when-founders-said-religion-they-me/
http://www.vnews.com/news/10197060-95/jefferson-was-the-first-president-defamed-for-mentioning-islam
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html

However, most of the sources cited by these articles are from before the two Barbary Wars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars
It is quite possible that Americans' view of Islam was changed by that experience.

In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with
Tripoli's envoy, ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja).
When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon
nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

"It was written in their Koran, that
all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners,
whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave;
and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise."

Considering this, and the fact that Muhammad himself practiced piracy,
(Muhammad led raids on caravans in the desert,
his followers even today raid ships on the ocean, mostly near Somalia.)
one can see how public opinion may have changed by the time of Justice Story's book.
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red_dirt

Japan is a country keeping Islam at bay by putting strict restrictions on Islam and ALL Muslims.

1) Japan is the only nation that does not give citizenship to Muslims.
2) In Japan permanent residency is not given to Muslims.
3) There is a strong ban on the propagation of Islam in Japan
4) In the University of Japan, Arabic or any Islamic language is not taught.
5) One cannot import a 'Koran' published in the Arabic language.
6) According to data published by the Japanese government, it has given temporary residency to only 2 lakhs, Muslims, who must follow the Japanese Law of the Land. These Muslims should speak Japanese and carry their religious rituals in their homes.
7) Japan is the only country in the world that has a negligible number of embassies in Islamic countries.
8) Muslims residing in Japan are the employees of foreign companies.
9) Even today, visas are not granted to Muslim doctors, engineers or managers sent by foreign companies.
10) In the majority of companies it is stated in their regulations that no Muslims should apply for a job.
11) The Japanese government is of the opinion that Muslims are fundamentalist, and even in the era of globalization they are not willing to change their Muslim laws.
12) Muslims cannot even rent a house in Japan.
13) If anyone comes to know that his neighbor is a Muslim then the whole neighborhood stays alert.
14) No one can start an Islamic cell or Arabic 'Madrasa' in Japan.
15) There is no Sharia law in Japan.
16) If a Japanese woman marries a Muslim, she is considered an outcast forever.
17) According to Mr. Kumiko Yagi, Professor of Arab/Islamic Studies at Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, "There is a mind frame in Japan that Islam is a very narrow minded religion and one should stay away from it."

The Japanese might have lost the war, but they are in charge of their own country.There are no bombs going off in crowded business centers, "honor killings

(repost anon.)

walkstall

Quote from: red_dirt on October 07, 2015, 11:53:05 AM
Japan is a country keeping Islam at bay by putting strict restrictions on Islam and ALL Muslims.

1) Japan is the only nation that does not give citizenship to Muslims.
2) In Japan permanent residency is not given to Muslims.
3) There is a strong ban on the propagation of Islam in Japan
4) In the University of Japan, Arabic or any Islamic language is not taught.
5) One cannot import a 'Koran' published in the Arabic language.
6) According to data published by the Japanese government, it has given temporary residency to only 2 lakhs, Muslims, who must follow the Japanese Law of the Land. These Muslims should speak Japanese and carry their religious rituals in their homes.
7) Japan is the only country in the world that has a negligible number of embassies in Islamic countries.
8) Muslims residing in Japan are the employees of foreign companies.
9) Even today, visas are not granted to Muslim doctors, engineers or managers sent by foreign companies.
10) In the majority of companies it is stated in their regulations that no Muslims should apply for a job.
11) The Japanese government is of the opinion that Muslims are fundamentalist, and even in the era of globalization they are not willing to change their Muslim laws.
12) Muslims cannot even rent a house in Japan.
13) If anyone comes to know that his neighbor is a Muslim then the whole neighborhood stays alert.
14) No one can start an Islamic cell or Arabic 'Madrasa' in Japan.
15) There is no Sharia law in Japan.
16) If a Japanese woman marries a Muslim, she is considered an outcast forever.
17) According to Mr. Kumiko Yagi, Professor of Arab/Islamic Studies at Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, "There is a mind frame in Japan that Islam is a very narrow minded religion and one should stay away from it."

The Japanese might have lost the war, but they are in charge of their own country.There are no bombs going off in crowded business centers, "honor killings

(repost anon.)

The U.S. could do this also, but our congressmen and lawyers do not have the ball. 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

supsalemgr

Quote from: red_dirt on October 07, 2015, 11:53:05 AM
Japan is a country keeping Islam at bay by putting strict restrictions on Islam and ALL Muslims.

1) Japan is the only nation that does not give citizenship to Muslims.
2) In Japan permanent residency is not given to Muslims.
3) There is a strong ban on the propagation of Islam in Japan
4) In the University of Japan, Arabic or any Islamic language is not taught.
5) One cannot import a 'Koran' published in the Arabic language.
6) According to data published by the Japanese government, it has given temporary residency to only 2 lakhs, Muslims, who must follow the Japanese Law of the Land. These Muslims should speak Japanese and carry their religious rituals in their homes.
7) Japan is the only country in the world that has a negligible number of embassies in Islamic countries.
8) Muslims residing in Japan are the employees of foreign companies.
9) Even today, visas are not granted to Muslim doctors, engineers or managers sent by foreign companies.
10) In the majority of companies it is stated in their regulations that no Muslims should apply for a job.
11) The Japanese government is of the opinion that Muslims are fundamentalist, and even in the era of globalization they are not willing to change their Muslim laws.
12) Muslims cannot even rent a house in Japan.
13) If anyone comes to know that his neighbor is a Muslim then the whole neighborhood stays alert.
14) No one can start an Islamic cell or Arabic 'Madrasa' in Japan.
15) There is no Sharia law in Japan.
16) If a Japanese woman marries a Muslim, she is considered an outcast forever.
17) According to Mr. Kumiko Yagi, Professor of Arab/Islamic Studies at Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, "There is a mind frame in Japan that Islam is a very narrow minded religion and one should stay away from it."

The Japanese might have lost the war, but they are in charge of their own country.There are no bombs going off in crowded business centers, "honor killings

(repost anon.)

So the logical question is how many Muslims have chosen to live in Japan with these restrictions?
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

Solar

Quote from: red_dirt on October 07, 2015, 11:53:05 AM
Japan is a country keeping Islam at bay by putting strict restrictions on Islam and ALL Muslims.

1) Japan is the only nation that does not give citizenship to Muslims.
2) In Japan permanent residency is not given to Muslims.
3) There is a strong ban on the propagation of Islam in Japan
4) In the University of Japan, Arabic or any Islamic language is not taught.
5) One cannot import a 'Koran' published in the Arabic language.
6) According to data published by the Japanese government, it has given temporary residency to only 2 lakhs, Muslims, who must follow the Japanese Law of the Land. These Muslims should speak Japanese and carry their religious rituals in their homes.
7) Japan is the only country in the world that has a negligible number of embassies in Islamic countries.
8) Muslims residing in Japan are the employees of foreign companies.
9) Even today, visas are not granted to Muslim doctors, engineers or managers sent by foreign companies.
10) In the majority of companies it is stated in their regulations that no Muslims should apply for a job.
11) The Japanese government is of the opinion that Muslims are fundamentalist, and even in the era of globalization they are not willing to change their Muslim laws.
12) Muslims cannot even rent a house in Japan.
13) If anyone comes to know that his neighbor is a Muslim then the whole neighborhood stays alert.
14) No one can start an Islamic cell or Arabic 'Madrasa' in Japan.
15) There is no Sharia law in Japan.
16) If a Japanese woman marries a Muslim, she is considered an outcast forever.
17) According to Mr. Kumiko Yagi, Professor of Arab/Islamic Studies at Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, "There is a mind frame in Japan that Islam is a very narrow minded religion and one should stay away from it."

The Japanese might have lost the war, but they are in charge of their own country.There are no bombs going off in crowded business centers, "honor killings

(repost anon.)
http://www.truthorfiction.com/japan-muslim/
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tac



daidalos

No, the rights enumerated in our Constitution do not apply to all nations of the Earth.

In fact they aren't even meant to apply to non-citizen's within the jurisdiction of the U.S. government either.

Let alone non-citizen's under the jurisdiction of say the English Queen/Parliament.

Also, while the Justice maybe correct. I tend to find that the simplest answer is usually the right one.

And the simplest answer for why the framers put a first amendment in the Constitution is this.

In the day of the framers, not only did they know, how a government that is not constrained as ours is by the first amendment.

Can lead to abuse of the citizenry by that government. They lived it, and saw it quite literally up close and personal.

In fact, speech, in this case it was political speech, IS one of the very reasons cited for fighting the Revolutionary war in the first place.

To me, it only makes sense then, that later on, after the war. When it was time to frame our own government.

The framers would frame our Constitution in such a way, as to try and prevent the fledgeling new U.S. government from engaging in the very same sort of abuse, as that perpetuated on the colonies by King George and the parliament of that day.


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SalemCat

I'm probably beating a dead horse here - at least I hope so.

But when I grew up I was taught there is a being, a Supernatural Being, that hates humans.

Loves to deceive them, kill innocents, subjugate women, abuse children.

That being was SATAN.

And as far as I can see, Allah is that Being.

Oh, oh. Have I gone too far ?

BTW, I have enormous respect for Jews, who I feel are fellow Christians (whether they know it or not). After all, Jesus was a Jew.

I also admire Buddhists, Hindus, and many more. As long as they are willing to live peacefully with those of different beliefs, I am cool with them. I am also cool with Atheists who understand that some of us believe in God, yet do not persecute us.

cubedemon

Quote from: daidalos on October 17, 2015, 04:38:11 PM
No, the rights enumerated in our Constitution do not apply to all nations of the Earth.

In fact they aren't even meant to apply to non-citizen's within the jurisdiction of the U.S. government either.

Let alone non-citizen's under the jurisdiction of say the English Queen/Parliament.

Also, while the Justice maybe correct. I tend to find that the simplest answer is usually the right one.

And the simplest answer for why the framers put a first amendment in the Constitution is this.

In the day of the framers, not only did they know, how a government that is not constrained as ours is by the first amendment.

Can lead to abuse of the citizenry by that government. They lived it, and saw it quite literally up close and personal.

In fact, speech, in this case it was political speech, IS one of the very reasons cited for fighting the Revolutionary war in the first place.

To me, it only makes sense then, that later on, after the war. When it was time to frame our own government.

The framers would frame our Constitution in such a way, as to try and prevent the fledgeling new U.S. government from engaging in the very same sort of abuse, as that perpetuated on the colonies by King George and the parliament of that day.

The constitution is a blueprint for how our federal government is to be structured and ran.  The constitution divides our federal government into three branches (Executive, Legislative and Judicial.)   The idea is to separate and divide up the powers so no one man or group of men can get to much power.   Each branch had assigned powers and assigned functions.   How is a right enumerated in the U.S. constitution whatsoever or am I missing something?

When one looks at the Bill of Rights meaning the 1st 10 amendments of our constitution what I see are prohibitions.  To me, they should be called a Bill of Prohibitions because they disallow the federal government from doing certain things.   

The U.S. constitution in essence is a blue print for what the different parts of the federal government can do and are required to do and the Bill of Rights  is a blue print for what different parts of the federal government and the federal government can't do.   

What rights are actually enumerated in either of these two documents?   

For the Declaration of Independence, the rights enumerated are life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.  Here is a quote from the Declaration of Independence which says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." 

If these rights supposedly apply to a certain group of people than are you saying that our creator does not endow some people with unalienable rights?   If this is truth then how is this logically consistent?   Why doesn't this apply across the board?   Why does the geographical boundaries determine whether a person has unalienable rights or not?   

Solar

Quote from: cubedemon on November 11, 2015, 03:55:26 PM
The constitution is a blueprint for how our federal government is to be structured and ran.  The constitution divides our federal government into three branches (Executive, Legislative and Judicial.)   The idea is to separate and divide up the powers so no one man or group of men can get to much power.   Each branch had assigned powers and assigned functions.   How is a right enumerated in the U.S. constitution whatsoever or am I missing something?

When one looks at the Bill of Rights meaning the 1st 10 amendments of our constitution what I see are prohibitions.  To me, they should be called a Bill of Prohibitions because they disallow the federal government from doing certain things.   

The U.S. constitution in essence is a blue print for what the different parts of the federal government can do and are required to do and the Bill of Rights  is a blue print for what different parts of the federal government and the federal government can't do.   

What rights are actually enumerated in either of these two documents?   

For the Declaration of Independence, the rights enumerated are life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.  Here is a quote from the Declaration of Independence which says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." 

If these rights supposedly apply to a certain group of people than are you saying that our creator does not endow some people with unalienable rights?   If this is truth then how is this logically consistent?   Why doesn't this apply across the board?   Why does the geographical boundaries determine whether a person has unalienable rights or not?
The Fourteenth Amendment addresses many aspects of citizenship and the rights of citizens. ... All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.
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BPman

Quote from: Solar on November 11, 2015, 05:18:07 PM
The Fourteenth Amendment addresses many aspects of citizenship and the rights of citizens. ... All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.

But not foreign nationals. As well, if it covered ALL Americans then why did Congress wait until 1924 to make American Indians citizens?  :wink:
"A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin."  H.L. Mencken

cubedemon

Quote from: BPman on November 11, 2015, 10:22:47 PM
But not foreign nationals. As well, if it covered ALL Americans then why did Congress wait until 1924 to make American Indians citizens?  :wink:

and this is where I do not understand.   Why do only citizens of a certain geographical area only have rights?   Why are American citizens the only ones to have unalienable rights?   Why doesn't the concept of inalienable rights extend across the whole globe?

Why does the creator endow some people with these unalienable rights but not others?  Why does citizenship matter of a particular country that lies within certain geographical boarders matter?

Solar

Quote from: BPman on November 11, 2015, 10:22:47 PM
But not foreign nationals. As well, if it covered ALL Americans then why did Congress wait until 1924 to make American Indians citizens?  :wink:
Simply because natives had no interest in being further subjugated by a govt that had destroyed their way of life.
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