Conservative Political Forum

Religion Forum => Religion Forum => Topic started by: Patriot on December 24, 2012, 05:08:40 PM

Title: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Patriot on December 24, 2012, 05:08:40 PM
There are two views on Islam that I was involved in another Forum.

One from a well meaning Christian, who is basically correct except that he throws in the non-existent Satan, and other religious BS into an otherwise correct conclusion.

The other opinion of Islam is mine, which comes to the same conclusion minus the religious Satan BS.

Apparently the whole discussion was triggered of by Congressman Peter King's righteous investigation of Islam's deleterious stealth pollution of our American way of Life with Sharia's anti-Constitutional Agenda.

I do not vouch for the well-meaning Christian's quotes regarding his interpretation of what Congressman Peter King's position is.

The following was the discussion:

1. Peter King is correct, Islam isn't going to turn on itself, be it
Muslims in America or anywhere else, whether they are arab Muslims, or
some duffas white dude Muslims who just joined last week.
2. The glue that binds Islam is Satan, plain and simple, and a house
devided won't stand, even if its an evil house, thats what most people
outside of Islam can not grasp, its a brotherhood, of evil and all
Islam waits for is the time to strike, and strike like a snake, and its
okay to die doing it for them.
3, Islam as a whole in America is here just to do Satan's bidding,
every single day we have the doors open to Islam the further we bury
ourselves.
4. I been spreading this information now, for better than ten years,
and its not that I hate Muslims, I hate Islam, for its the religion
that binds Muslims together, cut off the head and kill the snake, Islam
is the head, if we simply ban Islam from America, Muslims will die off,
and or leave.
5. This is *THE MOST* dangerous thing to everything good about America,
soon very soon, it will be too late to reverse whats been done so far,
Peter King is a hero, to speak out, I applaud his stance, fearless to
stand up in the public forum of the political stage, and voice what we
all know; people like myself, to be the truth.
6. Unless Americans focus on this problem and do it soon, you can kiss
this Nation *goodbye*.
7. This government is waking up, and the reason why is people like
*CWN*, *Marc39*, and many many others whom I fail to bring
to memory, and I am indeed sorry for that.
8. God Bless America, and all those whole agree with me.
9. You other clowns who disagree, I say, tough shit, one way or another
we will get past you dumbasses, for your good, and for the good of The
United States of America!
10. Your great grand children will thank us, you may never know what
all this means, and if *The Lord* returns, we don't have to do a thing,
Jesus will sort it all out, himself.

MY RESPONSE:

I am NOT a Religious person.


ISLAM is NOT POS because of its connection to SATAN.....I say NOT because iISLAM doesn't have anything to do with a non-existent SATAN.

ISLAM doesn't have anything to do with SATAN, because that SOB SATAN
DOES NOT EXIST !!!. If there was a SATAN.....then, of course, ISLAM
would be the (imaginary) SUPER EVIL's tool.

Mohammed's ISLAM is EVIL just as Hitler's NAZI GERMANY was EVIL, just
as Pol Pot's COMMUNIST CAMBODIA was EVIL, or Stalin's COMMUNIST RUSSIA
was EVIL, or Mao Tze Tung's COMMUNIST CHINA was EVIL (although China is
becoming civilized by replacing Communistic practices with Capitalistic
ones with the concomitant change in its "democratic" practices).

Mohammed's ISLAM is EVIL because, like COMMUNISM it seeks WORLD
DOMINATION preferably by word.....but by SWORD if necessary.

THE OVERT ISLAMIC BARBARITY coupled with its "Communist Stealth" like
tactics, i.e. TAQIYAH, make ISLAM an extremely dangerous adversary as
proven by its gains and takeovers in Europe.

ISLAM in America is, primarily in the TAQIYAH stage......because of the
number of Muslims in America. There is a study somewhere (and I hope
someone finds it....it was on USMB) where there is very clear
documentation by actual examples of how ISLAM takes over European
Countries in stages: example: Lets say the country is a mythical
country called Patagonia in Europe: the study showed how with 1% of the
population in Patagonia there was, maybe, the push to have more
mosques. With 5% of the population in Patagonia there was a push to
have special privileges in schools or civil activities, with 10% -
riots........and so on.

All this factually replicated in other European Countries in the
various stages of Islamic takeover. I may be wrong, but I think that
the once wonderful country of Sweden is in the most advanced stages of
ISLAMIC takeover. The fucking Muslims have managed to install an
Amendment in Sweden's Constitution that specifically prohibits MUSLIMS
 from "discrimination".....with the resulting emphasis on the MUSLIM'S
interpretation of what their religious rights are !!!. No other
RELIGION or its followers are mentioned in this Constitutional
Amendment.

BTW, the once peaceful, actually most tranquil Country in the World,
Sweden......is now the Country with the MOST RAPES in Europe. And, the
rapes are documented to be entirely, or almost entirely, by its Muslim
immigrants.

Bottom line: I agree with CWN 1000%.....except for his flights of
religious fancy regarding SATAN.
__________________
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Yawn on December 24, 2012, 05:53:59 PM
And your last line is how I would agree with you--except for your BS beliefs about Satan.
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: kramarat on December 24, 2012, 06:42:12 PM
Satan represents evil. Do you deny that evil exists?
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Yawn on December 24, 2012, 07:03:05 PM
Don't know who you're addressing. I know both Satan and evil exist. He IS the god of this world (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/4-4.htm) until Christ returns and dethrones him.
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Patriot on December 25, 2012, 01:52:15 AM
Satan represents evil. Do you deny that evil exists?

You don't seem to geddit.

Evil exists whether the religious believe Satan exists or not.

Ex: Satan is synonymous with Evil for Christians.

Satan does NOT represent Evil to the non-religious, because to them EVIL exists, but Satan does not.

To make it clearer to the religious fanatics: Let's say Patagonians believe that the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER (with his limp noodle like appendage) represents EVIL ......as you do SATAN.......if one of them posed the following proposition to you: "The FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER (with his limp noodle like appendage) represents evil.  Do you deny that evil exists?"

Wouldn't you consider that Patagonian a presumptuous ass ?

Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Patriot on December 25, 2012, 02:04:09 AM
Don't know who you're addressing. I know both Satan and evil exist. He IS the god of this world (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/4-4.htm) until Christ returns and dethrones him.

I am addressing the Forum in general.

As to what you "know" or don't "know" is a matter of opinion.

You "THINK" BOTH Satan and evil exist. There is a significant number of people who "THINK" that while EVIL exists......SATAN is A CONCOCTION by the Religious to represent EVIL. IOW, Satan does NOT exist.

You are entitled to quote the Bible, the Koran, Superman Comic Books,etc.,..... whatever.

However, for obvious reasons, your quoting the Bible means didley squat as far as proof is concerned. If you had the most rudimentary education, you would've KNOWN that.
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Solar on December 25, 2012, 08:45:24 AM
Which raises the question, does evil exist as an entity, or simply in the soul of singular individuals?
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Yawn on December 25, 2012, 10:09:23 AM
I wasn't attempting to convince you by quoting scripture.  I was referencing his power in this world for those who do believe.

Still, when it comes to your opinions and Yeshua who said, "I saw Satan fall as lightning from Heaven.", I will believe Him.  I don't consider it my duty to convince you of anything, only state my beliefs just as you're doing.

Edit:

Now I see how it is. MY belief/KNOWLEDGE of Satan is only a "BELIEF."  I really don't KNOW. 

But, Patriot, in his infinite wisdom KNOWS Satan is not real. He is a concoction. Anybody with "intelligence" would of course, agree with HIM.  Therefore, if you believe in Satan--as the Bible clearly states, you must be ignorant  and uneducated.  Jesus/Yeshua was a LIAR, and your faith is in vain.  Let "Patriot" lead you to your salvation.  :lol:

Another self-righteous and pompous dolt walks among us.
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Patriot on December 25, 2012, 10:22:10 AM
Which raises the question, does evil exist as an entity, or simply in the soul of singular individuals?

It is my understanding that the Religious feel that there is some spirit-like dude (SATAN) who represents EVIL and who causes, or directs humans to perpetrate evil even though the humans have FREE WILL and choose that course of action and/or whatever action they take, it's the human's responsibility for that action.

Same kinda thinking leads the Religious to believe the opposite of EVIL, i.e. GOOD is personified by some spirit-like personification (GOD) who represents GOOD and who causes, or directs humans to perpetrate  good even though the humans have FREE WILL, etc., etc., as above.

Non-religious people do not believe in these ENTITIES: SATAN (evil), GOD (good). They believe that good and evil exists because the behaviour of humans is such that this behaviour results in evil things or good things happening.

And, one may say, that the proof that the non-religious are correct is that one person cannot duplicate exactly the identical evil of some other evil people because their evil which may result in the same category of evil , let's say "MURDER" but their "murders" will never be IDENTICAL in each and every aspect of that "murder".

However, if the Religious belief is correct, this SATAN dude coulda made the EVIL perpetrated by the two different people identical in all aspects. once BOTH of them, exercising their own FREE WILL decided to commit the concept of "MURDER".
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Patriot on December 25, 2012, 10:54:48 AM
I wasn't attempting to convince you by quoting scripture.  I was referencing his power in this world for those who do believe.

Still, when it comes to your opinions and Yeshua who said, "I saw Satan fall as lightning from Heaven.", I will believe Him.  I don't consider it my duty to convince you of anything, only state my beliefs just as you're doing.

Edit:

Now I see how it is. MY belief/KNOWLEDGE of Satan is only a "BELIEF."  I really don't KNOW. 

But, Patriot, in his infinite wisdom KNOWS Satan is not real. He is a concoction. Anybody with "intelligence" would of course, agree with HIM.  Therefore, if you believe in Satan--as the Bible clearly states, you must be ignorant  and uneducated.  Jesus/Yeshua was a LIAR, and your faith is in vain.  Let "Patriot" lead you to your salvation.  :lol:

Another self-righteous and pompous dolt walks among us.

I never denied your right to quote whoever and whatever you want.

Neither have I denied your right to believe whatever you want: you might believe that apples are chairs for all I care.

And, I have never insisted that just because I, and others like me, who do not believe in the existence of Satan, that the non-existence of SATAN, or even a "GOD" is a fact.

I made it clear that your error is that of, let's say, the hypothetical Patagonians, who might BELIEVE that the Flying Spaghetti Monster (with his noodle-like appendage) represents EVIL ........but just because the hypothetical Patagonians believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster (with his noodle-like appendage) represents evil it was not a FACT that this monstrosity represented evil.

IOW, a BELIEF is NOT an irrefutable fact.

You may recall, or check my post where I sated that the Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind came to the same unanimous conclusion that it is impossible to prove the existence or nonexistence of God ......and the obvious corollary is the existence or non-existence of Satan.

It is YOU who committed the fundamental error in the "KNOWLEDGE" that God, or Satan exists ........when BOTH concepts are a matter of FAITH.....NOT irrefutable fact

You then proceed, in this last post, to call me the presumptuous dolt by committing YOUR error ...... which I never did.

Hence, let the FACTS speak for themselves as to WHO committed the error, and WHO is the  "self-righteous and pompous dolt who walks among us".
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Patriot on December 25, 2012, 11:17:21 AM
It is my understanding that the Religious feel that there is some spirit-like dude (SATAN) who represents EVIL and who causes, or directs humans to perpetrate evil even though the humans have FREE WILL and choose that course of action and/or whatever action they take, it's the human's responsibility for that action.

Same kinda thinking leads the Religious to believe the opposite of EVIL, i.e. GOOD is personified by some spirit-like personification (GOD) who represents GOOD and who causes, or directs humans to perpetrate  good even though the humans have FREE WILL, etc., etc., as above.

Non-religious people do not believe in these ENTITIES: SATAN (evil), GOD (good). They believe that good and evil exists because the behaviour of humans is such that this behaviour results in evil things or good things happening.

And, one may say, it is more reasonable to assume that the non-religious are correct is that one person cannot duplicate exactly the identical evil of some other evil people because their evil which may result in the same category of evil , let's say "MURDER" but their "murders" will never be IDENTICAL in each and every aspect of that "murder".

However, if the Religious belief is correct, this SATAN dude coulda made the EVIL perpetrated by the two different people identical in all aspects. once BOTH of them, exercising their own FREE WILL decided to commit the concept of "MURDER".

Interesting. As one delves deeper in this discussion the religious seems to confuse the concept of FAITH with KNOWLEDGE.
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: MFA on December 25, 2012, 12:09:40 PM
Interesting. As one delves deeper in this discussion the religious seems to confuse the concept of FAITH with KNOWLEDGE.

The only real difference is that faith implies trust and trustworthiness.

In our culture, many have bought into the Enlightenment fallacy that "only what you can prove is true."  This simply isn't the case.  You cannot prove anything without "faith" in bedrock principles by which you offer proof.

In ancient Hebrew culture, "knowledge" was personal and not objective (hence the euphemism "to know" to mean sex).  I know someone--I have nothing I have to prove about that person.  This is actually core to Christianity--that Jesus did not claim to know or have the truth; he claimed to be the truth.  I may not be able to prove something about Jesus or even comprehend everything about him; but I can know him.
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Yawn on December 25, 2012, 04:03:22 PM
nisi credideritis, non stabit

There. I spoke in "tongues"
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Yawn on December 25, 2012, 04:07:19 PM
Interesting. As one delves deeper in this discussion the religious seems to confuse the concept of FAITH with KNOWLEDGE.

You make ASSumptions about what others may or may not KNOW.  You have no idea what others KNOW.
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Solar on December 25, 2012, 06:58:08 PM
It is my understanding that the Religious feel that there is some spirit-like dude (SATAN) who represents EVIL and who causes, or directs humans to perpetrate evil even though the humans have FREE WILL and choose that course of action and/or whatever action they take, it's the human's responsibility for that action.

Same kinda thinking leads the Religious to believe the opposite of EVIL, i.e. GOOD is personified by some spirit-like personification (GOD) who represents GOOD and who causes, or directs humans to perpetrate  good even though the humans have FREE WILL, etc., etc., as above.

Non-religious people do not believe in these ENTITIES: SATAN (evil), GOD (good). They believe that good and evil exists because the behaviour of humans is such that this behaviour results in evil things or good things happening.

And, one may say, that the proof that the non-religious are correct is that one person cannot duplicate exactly the identical evil of some other evil people because their evil which may result in the same category of evil , let's say "MURDER" but their "murders" will never be IDENTICAL in each and every aspect of that "murder".

However, if the Religious belief is correct, this SATAN dude coulda made the EVIL perpetrated by the two different people identical in all aspects. once BOTH of them, exercising their own FREE WILL decided to commit the concept of "MURDER".
within
Yet you didn't answer the question, is evil an entity, a realm in which it exists, or is it an individual?
I believe it to be both. I believe evil walks among us, I also believe evil is waiting for it's chance to enter where ever it can.
I am not a Religious person, but I don't discount a Religious perspective of putting a face on evil to make it more understandable so people don't fall under it's spell.
Doing evil acts comes easily for some, while the rest of us know it's boundaries and refuse it's attraction.
It's like working for the mob as a courier, you know you have crossed a line, but think as long as you claim ignorance to the contents to the package, you are safe,
You're not, once you give in to evil on any level, there are severe consequences, evil looks for the ignorant.
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Yawn on December 25, 2012, 07:54:19 PM
Patriot doesn't understand "evil" as God defines evil.  Satan is a god. He IS the god of this world.  His goal was to replace God, and he has (at least at this time--until Christ's return).

Satan wants to be worshiped.  Just because you're not committing crimes doesn't make you "good."  If you follow the way of Satan and if you're worshiping him (even thinking you're worshiping the true God), he's done his job.  Satan can be "good" too.  His sin was his desire to replace God, and the vast majority of Mankind worship him unknowingly. Yeshua spoke of His LITTLE flock. The true Church was and is a SMALL group of believers.  If you belong to a cult with a billion followers, you are likely following another god. Satan is not just the god of Islam.  He takes many forms--even among those who do good works.

Ask yourself if you have rejected His Sabbath--the one "Jesus" and the apostles observed for SUNday.  Have you rejected HIS Passover, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles (Succot) for "Christmas (Saturnalia), Easter (Ishtar) and other christianized pagan festivals?  If so, then you are following a DIFFERENT god than the Father, who Yeshua came to reveal--the one the apostles and prophets served.

Satan is more powerful than you think. He has the VAST majority deceived, because Satan can be a "good" god too. But he's a counterfeit.
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Patriot on December 25, 2012, 08:48:46 PM
The only real difference is that faith implies trust and trustworthiness.

In our culture, many have bought into the Enlightenment fallacy that "only what you can prove is true."  This simply isn't the case.  You cannot prove anything without "faith" in bedrock principles by which you offer proof.

In ancient Hebrew culture, "knowledge" was personal and not objective (hence the euphemism "to know" to mean sex).  I know someone--I have nothing I have to prove about that person.  This is actually core to Christianity--that Jesus did not claim to know or have the truth; he claimed to be the truth.  I may not be able to prove something about Jesus or even comprehend everything about him; but I can know him.

Am I correct in that you are stating that the only real  difference between FAITH and KNOWLEDGE (the words which you seem to be deliberately omitting because even on its face it is actually STUPID to claim they are anywhere close to being the same is that faith implies trust and trustworthiness.

Yours is an obvious attempt to obfuscate the issue which is: FAITH is NOT synonymous with KNOWLEDGE. The statement that FAITH implies trust and trustworthiness is correct.....but so is an irrelevant statement to the issue that humans are not apples.

Let's examine your other efforts at skullduggery in the form of semantical obfuscation and/or VIOLATION OF OBJECTIVE FACTS.

I, nor any intelligent person is claiming that: ""only what you can prove is true."  You are deliberately setting up an obvious "strawman" that you deviously want me to accept so that you can proceed to obfuscate YOUR SIMPLE AND RATHER STUPID ERROR IN ASSUMING THAT "FAITH" IS SYNONYMOUS WITH "KNOWLEDGE" !!!

Yes, I am familiar with the archaic use of the Hebrew word "know" ....... as when in modern times one almost always clarifies the statement that 'some man "knew" the woman' ......by adding "in the biblical sense" i.e., boinking the female.

WHY is that usual phrase of "biblical" qualification necessary ? ANSWER: because the confusion between "KNOWLEDGE" and the "biblical" use of the word KNOWLEDGE is so fucked up !!!

Which, actually proves MY point which is that the correct statement that: This CONFUSION between FACT (KNOWLEDGE) and FAITH (FICTION)  is actually core to Christianity--that Jesus did not ONLY  claim to know or have the truth; he had the audacity to claim to be the truth.

Now, AGAIN, let me reiterate what I stated in all my posts (but which have been distorted or obfuscated by the Christian Fanatics on this Forum): I do NOT deny you your right to believe in your religious nonsense ......I am simply exercising my right to find fault with your misuse of OBJECTIVE FACTS to bolster your religious nonsense by claiming that FAITH is somehow equivalent to KNOWLEDGE .....which is the most FLAGRANT violation of an OBJECTIVE FACT that verges on an INSANITY induced by Religious Delusions !!! 

AGAIN: I do not deny you your right to believe in anything ...... even to the point of believing in the existence of Satan, etc. But when you bolster, or try to defend your Religion by claiming VIOLATION OF OBJECTIVE FACTS ...... such as FAITH is somehow equivalent to KNOWLEDGE......which is tantamount to saying "apples are chairs", "people rising from the dead", "walking on water", "a virgin is NOT a virgin.....i.e., "A =not A", etc.,.....then, it would seem that I have reasonable claim to question your religious delusions.

What you religious folk can't seem to understand, is that delusional fools may honestly and fervently believe in the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER (with a noodle-like appendage) by using YOUR IDENTICAL LOGIC !!! ...... and DEFEND this NONSENSE by playing fast and loose with OBJECTIVE FACTS !!!
Title: Re: Two Views on Islam.
Post by: Patriot on December 25, 2012, 09:13:29 PM
Patriot doesn't understand "evil" as God defines evil.  Satan is a god. He IS the god of this world.  His goal was to replace God, and he has (at least at this time--until Christ's return).

Satan wants to be worshiped.  Just because you're not committing crimes doesn't make you "good."  If you follow the way of Satan and if you're worshiping him (even thinking you're worshiping the true God), he's done his job.  Satan can be "good" too.  His sin was his desire to replace God, and the vast majority of Mankind worship him unknowingly. Yeshua spoke of His LITTLE flock. The true Church was and is a SMALL group of believers.  If you belong to a cult with a billion followers, you are likely following another god. Satan is not just the god of Islam.  He takes many forms--even among those who do good works.

Ask yourself if you have rejected His Sabbath--the one "Jesus" and the apostles observed for SUNday.  Have you rejected HIS Passover, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles (Succot) for "Christmas (Saturnalia), Easter (Ishtar) and other christianized pagan festivals?  If so, then you are following a DIFFERENT god than the Father, who Yeshua came to reveal--the one the apostles and prophets served.

Satan is more powerful than you think. He has the VAST majority deceived, because Satan can be a "good" god too. But he's a counterfeit.

I am sure that the Religious Folk are having multiple orgasms reading your Religious Manifesto....or, whatever the hell it is.

But, I assure you your dissertation doesn't do anything to advance even a single "unbeliever" to change his opinion that your religion has the same validity as those who believe in the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER (with a noodle-like appendage) as representing God, Satan, or a combination of both.