Problems with the so-called "watchmaker" argument

Started by Sci Fi Fan, November 05, 2012, 01:16:33 PM

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Eyesabide

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on May 05, 2013, 02:06:44 PM
You can easily humiliate me by formulating a logical argument devoid of any ad hominems, circular reasoning, double standards, strawmans, factual/scientific inaccuracies, or red herrings.

Please do try.


Please state the mathematical formula use are basing your proof on that there is no singular God. Using Occams razor, since it fails as fact, being just a guide or method to speed towards a logical but not always accurate answer, might not be your best choice. Solomonoffs Theory of Inductive Inference more or less proves this even though it is commonly used to support the Razor.

So, which mathematical statement  is your factual proof there is no God?

Certainly, there is no attempt here to humiliate you in any way, you give me many things to think about. I am not a scientist or mathmatician, just a person who enjoys questioning my own opinions. You present many ideas to think about.
Muskets High!

walkstall

Quote from: IBeMe on May 05, 2013, 02:03:55 PM
At what point does this become Spam?
Posting endless rants, and starting new threads in the middle of other threads.

Your learning his MO IBeMe.   He changes the subject when he starting to get his ass kicked.   
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

MFA

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on May 05, 2013, 12:53:30 PM
I was reading over "new replies to your posts", and had to respond to this...stuff:

What kind of a rebuttal is this?  How the hell does your analogy make the slightest sense, when there are innumerable billions of "winning tickets" in the universe?

Oh, and by the way, if there were only one ticket of a super-lottery ever sold, and a random person won it, I certainly would not attribute it to divine will.

Um...there's only one universe.  When people are talking about the "probabilities of the universe supporting life," that probability refers to the universe.  What is the "probability" if there's only one?  You understand that we're not talking about stars and planets, but about the probability of our universe itself supporting life?

If there are a billion (or more possibilities), only one ticket, and the ticket is a winner...to what would you attribute that to?  Chance?

QuoteIn the same manner that you are more complex than a rock.  God is infinitely intelligent and powerful, while being just as large as the universe (omnipresence).  God's existence is a far greater unlikelihood than a large but ultimately far simpler universe.

One aspect of the complexity of our universe is that it is composed of matter.  It is possible to contain highly complex information in a very simply physical structure (i.e., simpler, for example, than what contains the human brain).

QuotePlease cut this pseudo-philosophical, rather silly set of questions.  Reason here is (obviously) related to logical necessity found in Occam's Razor/the principle of parsimony, and relevant to a scientific discussion on the origin of life and/or the universe. 

The fact is that an analysis of empirical data gives no reason to add in an infinitely complex and unobservable God variable to the equation.  Doing so explains nothing and makes the watchmaker argument even more unsolvable (as I've explained before).  The only reasons to add God into a scientific paradigm are chiefly emotional, and bear no more logical merit than flying unicorns or monkeys on Mars.

Hang on a sec--this is not a silly set of questions.  If Reason is your ultimate judge, what do you use to evaluate the reasonableness of your Reason?  What makes it trustworthy?  Everything you use to analyze all this empirical data is the result of random processes.  So what makes it "Reasonable"?  And how do you know?  And on what basis do you decide that "only what science can measure" is true or real?  Isn't that a non-scientific metaphysical leap?  After all, you certainly cannot prove it with empirical data...your whole argument seems to be based on unevaluated presuppositions.

kramarat

I find the "accepted" evolutionary theory to be nothing short of a miracle. A few chemical elements got mixed together, and, all of a sudden.....spontaneous life!!!! A single cell that gave rise to every living species on earth.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100513-science-evolution-darwin-single-ancestor/

People disagree with this, but I also think that due to a complexity that the human mind could never grasp, the Bible includes a certain degree of metaphor in order to help us make sense of something that is beyond our scope of possible understanding.

MFA

Quote from: kramarat on May 06, 2013, 04:55:20 AM
I find the "accepted" evolutionary theory to be nothing short of a miracle. A few chemical elements got mixed together, and, all of a sudden.....spontaneous life!!!! A single cell that gave rise to every living species on earth.

That's not really the accepted evolutionary theory, which requires the existence of things like DNA; in other words, it only works after those "few chemical elements" have already gotten mixed together properly.

QuotePeople disagree with this, but I also think that due to a complexity that the human mind could never grasp, the Bible includes a certain degree of metaphor in order to help us make sense of something that is beyond our scope of possible understanding.

The Bible obviously contains metaphor; those who suggest otherwise are either being ignorant or haven't read it or thought with any depth about it.  The issue is, how do you know what is metaphor and what is not?   Do what degree to the metaphors reflect what we call reality, and in what aspects?  The answers to those question inform the art of interpretation (in which it's not so difficult to be a reasonable artist).

IBeMe

#65
QuoteA single cell that gave rise to every living species on earth.


That article is all fiction; more scientific term, BS.

You can't come up with any statistics on how life started because there's no working evolutionary theory of how life could exist without God creating it.

That's what Harvard's "Origins of Life in the Universe Initiative" is all about; trying to come up with a theory of how life could exist without God; David R. Liu, a professor of chemistry and chemical biology at Harvard. But ''my expectation is that we will be able to reduce this to a very simple series of logical events that could have taken place with no divine intervention."

It's such an embarrassment for the Theory of Evolution that Big Boy Benner said, "It is quite gratifying to see Harvard is going for a solution to a problem that will be remembered 100 years from now."

When Big Boy Benner says the Theory of Evolution has a problem, it has a BIG problem.

As it stands now, this is a dead theory walking, no explanation of how life could exist without God having created it.

You can't use statistics on a formula that starts with zero, the answer will always be zero.

kramarat

My point is, that I don't see science and God to be mutually exclusive. I think that scientific discovery illustrates the incredible complexity of God's creation.

When people have a hidden agenda, and attempt to use science to disprove the existence of God, it only muddies the water; the same occurs when people attempt to take everything that is written in the Bible, literally, and try to use the Bible to deny what science is showing.

God gave us the brains to figure out how things work, and it has led to incredible discoveries in medicine and everything else in our lives. God and science are not separate, as far as I'm concerned; science gives us another way to better understand God...and like anything, it can be used for good or evil.

IBeMe


I love science!
It's the advancement of science that's put the Theory of Evolution in the embarrassing state of having no explanation of how life could exist without God.

I quote the evolutionary scientists above; the world's leading evolutionary scientists  are working in, and around, this project trying to come up with a theory of how life could exist without God creating it.

They don't even have a working theory; don't even have a consensus on where to start looking.

The complexity of the most "simple one-cell" turned out to be so complex that it blew the legs out from underneath the Theory of Evolution.

A thumb size sample of DNA can hold all the information on the whole Internet



Solar

Quote from: IBeMe on May 06, 2013, 12:18:55 PM
I love science!
It's the advancement of science that's put the Theory of Evolution in the embarrassing state of having no explanation of how life could exist without God.

I quote the evolutionary scientists above; the world's leading evolutionary scientists  are working in, and around, this project trying to come up with a theory of how life could exist without God creating it.

They don't even have a working theory; don't even have a consensus on where to start looking.

The complexity of the most "simple one-cell" turned out to be so complex that it blew the legs out from underneath the Theory of Evolution.

A thumb size sample of DNA can hold all the information on the whole Internet
Gods database. :thumbsup:
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

IBeMe


"A device the size of your thumb could store as much information as the whole Internet," said Harvard University molecular geneticist George Church, the project's senior researcher

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10000872396390444233104577593291643488120?mg=reno64-wsj

taxed

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 06, 2012, 06:28:51 AM
I was expecting more logical, scientific responses.  You know, sticking with the whole "fact based" premise of the board.  Do you think "personal experience" is sufficient to convict a defendant in the court of law?  Sufficient to test and design a rocket going into outer space?  Sufficient to write a solid essay for your middle school teacher?  Nope.

You believe in man-made global warming. 
#PureBlood #TrumpWon

Eyesabide

Sci Fi Fan,
               I have respectfully accepted your challenge to  formulate a logical argument (on the existence of God). The glove has been picked up. Present arms sir! Show me the formulaic basis of you proof there is no God so that we can begin this debate!

On a more serious note, I have found many formulas you might choose as your first shot.

               
Muskets High!

IBeMe

#72
Quotekarmarat: the same occurs when people attempt to take everything that is written in the Bible, literally, and try to use the Bible to deny what science is showing.

I agree with you on science, true science; not politically-correct science or agenda-driven science.
Also keeping in mind how little science truly knows about our existence. Most of the Universe consist of dark matter, and we don't have a clue what it is.

I believe God created everything in six days and the Bible time line of a few thousand years.
God puts a tremendous emphasis on six days by making the Sabbath a day of rest, and eternal statute.

Everything had to be created at once; the degree of complexity demands it.

If an evolutionist wants to believe in 4.5 billion years; for sake of argument, I'll give it to them; but I don't for a second believe it.

Each person consist of 10 to 100 trillion cells.
A typical healthy human brain contains about 200 billion nerve cells, or neurons, linked to one another via hundreds of trillions of tiny contacts called synapses.
A three-year-old child has about one quadrillion synapses.
Each synapses consist of many pieces of machinery, some of which work with individual atoms and molecules.
If everything isn't in place doing its job, you hit room temperature.

I already mentioned, a thumb-size group of DNA can hold all the information of the whole Internet, but   that's only one type of memory.
The range of capabilities possible for even small groups of neurons are beyond current understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system

How's that puny 4.5 billion years looking now?

And all the information of how to build this complex piece of machinery, the human body, has to be encoded in each egg, that's how we all start out.

Not only, the male sperm has a little motor capable of doing 6,000 to 17,000 rpm unloaded; that's how the sperm gets to the egg. (google flagellum).

The human body is engineered down to the atom level, consisting of machinery that works with atoms.

Random occurrence in a puny 4.5 billion years? mathematically impossible!

Eyesabide

SCI FI MAN... COME OUT AND PLAAAAAEEEAAY!

You set up a good challenge, I am finding all kinds of theories to support what you seem to propose on this forum. You have been spouting the "No God " position strongly for a very long time so I imagine you have lots of the same kind of proof you have been demanding from "Believers".

Certainly the delay in your response is longer than you would reasonably expect someone else to reply to a challenge. I sincerely hope the delay is not due to any misfortune to you or yours.

Muskets High!

Solar

Quote from: Eyesabide on May 08, 2013, 07:30:24 AM
SCI FI MAN... COME OUT AND PLAAAAAEEEAAY!

You set up a good challenge, I am finding all kinds of theories to support what you seem to propose on this forum. You have been spouting the "No God " position strongly for a very long time so I imagine you have lots of the same kind of proof you have been demanding from "Believers".

Certainly the delay in your response is longer than you would reasonably expect someone else to reply to a challenge. I sincerely hope the delay is not due to any misfortune to you or yours.
He'll be back in a couple of months, he was warned to settle down on the derailing of threads, so he is taking a self imposed absence.
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!