My response to Walkstall's comment

[Solar]

I never made any claim that I was a victim or that I was not a victim.  If I am a victim then I am a victim of my own ignorance and lack of understanding of things.  If I am a victim than I am a victim of not understanding as to how to gain wisdom and understanding.   Am I a victim of anything?   I have no clue and no way to derive if I am a victim or not a victim as I lack the wisdom that you have Solar.   


Since I am an ignorant man who knows not  here is what I do not understand.  The claim was made that we all learn to cope.   What is the basis for this claim that we "all" or even the vast majority learns to cope.   Those who were institutionalized could not cope.  Those who committed suicide did not cope.  Not only is all of these things are true for the history of the USA but it is true for human civilization.    What is the basis for this claim?   


Point taken.   You're right, the data would have to be analyzed further and I need to learn to analyze stats better.   I did not think of your criteria that you thought of. 

I will look at the 80s census when I have time.

Ask yourself this. If you had no support whatsoever, could you feed and house yourself, even if it were a tent in the forest, shoveling shit for a living?
I ask, because it appears your expectations in life are way too high, you want success now, when in fact, truth is, most people don't even approach independence till their forties.

Case in point. I closed my business, bought a motorhome, and was preparing to head for Alaska, in the interim, I needed a place to park so I could get my affairs in order.
I had parked on a hill overlooking a cattle ranch and house, the next morning I drove down and inquired if I could park somewhere on their land.

The lady of the house said, (in a bad southern accent) Hang on a sec....
A few minutes later, a big guy walks out in a cowboy hat, steps up to my drivers side window, and without looking up, says, ever ran fence? Nope I said, ever ran cattle? Nope, ever rode a horse? I said 20 years back I did as a kid.
He said, park yonder, there's a plug for power, pays 1200.00 a month cash, see ya at 6:00 am.
I kid you not, and no, I wasn't looking for work, but it was the first day of the rest of my life towards independence.
And yes, all by the grace of God, for I had asked for guidance that night pondering the ranch house.

Point is, you have to be willing to step outside your comfort zone, skill or no skill, go for it.
I had no idea what being a cowboy meant, but I learned to tell the difference between an good lookin cow and an ugly one.

It may be, that you're trying for results without actually getting your hands dirty. Lose the fear, put yourself out there, and get the Hell out of the city, because honestly, all it has to offer are service jobs, grunt work, until you have a skill people want, you aren't going to get hired till you've worked and can prove your worth. Yes, your worth is a skill.
Take a drive into the country and ask if anyone is hiring, for anything, that's when doors start opening, but they won't open if you sit around and wait.

[walkstall]

cubedemon, when 2 is missing or B is missing your dead in the water.  You waste your time looking for 2 or B before moving on.   I just move around them and keep moving on.  Sometime down the line 2 and B will fall in line if there needed.   We all have or 2's and B's in our life but we don't let that stop us.  You are young, why die looking for something you my no even need. 

Life is short, get out and do something on your own for yourself even if it's wrong.   I can remember being told as a young pup, don't just sit there, do something even if it's wrong at least you tried and did something.   As kids we learned a lot behind the old woodshed.  More dad's should doing that even now.   

[Solar]

cubedemon, when 2 is missing or B is missing your dead in the water.  You waste your time looking for 2 or B before moving on.   I just move around them and keep moving on.  Sometime down the line 2 and B will fall in line if there needed.   We all have or 2's and B's in our life but we don't let that stop us.  You are young, why die looking for something you my no even need. 

Life is short, get out and do something on your own for yourself even if it's wrong.   I can remember being told as a young pup, don't just sit there, do something even if it's wrong at least you tried and did something.   As kids we learned a lot behind the old woodshed.  More dad's should doing that even now.   

In truth, I think he's just scared, he doesn't have faith in his own abilities, doesn't want to leave his comfort zone.
Quite understandably, but until he does, he can only look 20 years down the road, and this is his life, nothing will change, until he changes it.

Good or bad, that really is it in a nutshell, it's that way for everyone, we all have to take chances if we don't like our station in life.

[cubedemon]

In truth, I think he's just scared, he doesn't have faith in his own abilities, doesn't want to leave his comfort zone.
Quite understandably, but until he does, he can only look 20 years down the road, and this is his life, nothing will change, until he changes it.

Good or bad, that really is it in a nutshell, it's that way for everyone, we all have to take chances if we don't like our station in life.

Can you tell me more about the country please?  What is it like?  Are the people friendly?  Is the pace slowly?   Can one stop to think and reflect and slow down?  Is it like Willoughby?  I wish I could live in a place like Willoughby.    https://vimeo.com/89150452

[cubedemon]

Ask yourself this. If you had no support whatsoever, could you feed and house yourself, even if it were a tent in the forest, shoveling shit for a living?
I ask, because it appears your expectations in life are way too high, you want success now, when in fact, truth is, most people don't even approach independence till their forties.

I asked myself that question the question you asked me and I have no earthly clue.   I wouldn't even know how to survive in the forest or pitch a tent whatsoever.   In fact, I don't even have a clue as to how to obtain a job shoveling shit for a living.   I wouldn't even know where to go, what to say, or what to put on my resume that would get me the position of shoveling shit.   Another thing, employers these days give out personality tests and not only are the questions are confusing but the very structure of the test is confusing.

I remember applying for a job at staples.   One of the personality test questions was do I believe that life is unfair?   It was extremely confusing.

The problem with this question is that it is not an opinion based question.  Life is unfair is a statement of fact.   We can look at the starving children in Africa and what goes on in North Korea.

That's assuming fair is being used in this particular context.   We also have fair as in average including numerical averages.   Since, life contains man and man invented math or came up with it and math contains the concept of average than life contains averages such as (5+2+2)/3 = 3.   In the mathematical context life is fair.   Another context is that of a feeling towards.  The average belief is that pedophilia is wrong.   Life is fair.   

If we look at it through strictly through the literal context which says if life isn't fair and if fair means proper under the rules then life is not proper under the rules.  Yet, if life is not proper under the rules than how would this hold up?   

As you see, I did not know how to answer such a question as the question is to vague and the question and other questions such as these are context dependent. 

Case in point. I closed my business, bought a motorhome, and was preparing to head for Alaska, in the interim, I needed a place to park so I could get my affairs in order.
I had parked on a hill overlooking a cattle ranch and house, the next morning I drove down and inquired if I could park somewhere on their land.

The lady of the house said, (in a bad southern accent) Hang on a sec....
A few minutes later, a big guy walks out in a cowboy hat, steps up to my drivers side window, and without looking up, says, ever ran fence? Nope I said, ever ran cattle? Nope, ever rode a horse? I said 20 years back I did as a kid.
He said, park yonder, there's a plug for power, pays 1200.00 a month cash, see ya at 6:00 am.
I kid you not, and no, I wasn't looking for work, but it was the first day of the rest of my life towards independence.
And yes, all by the grace of God, for I had asked for guidance that night pondering the ranch house.

I don't understand the conversation that took place here.   This is what I do understand.   In this little narrative that took place I do know that there were three characters Solar, lady with bad southern accent, and big guy with a cowboy hat.   The big guy asks a series of questions.   He tells you to park at a specific spot he calls yonder.   Here is where I am extremely and utterly confused and here is where my pragmatic disorder may be coming into play here.   So, this big guy with the cow boy hat is paying you $1200.00 month cash to park in a specific place called yonder to charge your vehicle?     All of a sudden you became a cowboy by plugging in your vehicle and he paid you to plug and charge your vehicle.   Why would he have you get up at 6 am if he was paying you $1200.00 a month to charge your vehicle?   How does cowboy all of a sudden come up in conversation and how did you become a cowboy from this?

Am I missing something here and misunderstanding the conversation you had with the big guy with the cowboy hat?   Or, is he paying you to be a cowboy along with the tasks that come along with the job?   More than likely this has to be true because paying someone to charge their vehicle $1200.00 per month makes no sense.   

No offense, but the conversation seemed very choppy and because of this it can be easily misconstrued.  It comes across to me as though you were being paid to charge your vehicle.   

Can you explain the cowboy's manner of speech to me and help me to understand it if you do not mind?   To me, it is less formal and less pedantic than the way I speak.   

[cubedemon]

I will end with a message a successful person I worked with shared with me over thirty years ago and I have never forgotten what he said.

"If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't. You are right".

Those are words that ring so true.

That message comes from Henry Ford I believe.   From maxims and axioms we can have corollaries that can follow.  Here is a corollary that follows.  Corollary 1:  The communists and the socialists believe they can make their system work and create a utopia and worker's paradise.   We will call Henry Ford's proposition Maxim 1.  Corollary 1 is false.   No matter what communists and socialists communism and socialism has not be able to work. 

What we have is this

Premise 1: If Maxim 1 then Corollary 1.

Premise 2: Maxim 1

Conclusion: Corollary 1.

Yet the conclusion turns out to be false.

Again what we have is this

Premise 1:  If Maxim 1 then Corollary 1.

Premise 2:  Not (Corollary 1)

Conclusion Not (Maxim 1)

What this says is that if Henry Ford said this "If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't. You are right" and it is true than it must follow that the very beliefs by the followers of Socialism and Communism that they can make it work will eventually make it work.   So far, these beliefs have not panned out so in this case Henry Ford's maxim must be false.   Which means there is at least one case in reality in which belief does not determine whether one can or can't.   If Ford's maxim is falsified in this case then I have to ask what other cases is it falsified in?  What are the specific measures to determine the truth and falseness of Ford's maxim in different cases?

[walkstall]

cubedemon, you need to get a babysitter for yourself.  Sit on your ass, and let the world feel sorry for you. 

My cat has more get up and go then you will ever have. 

You should check into how to become a Monk.   

[Solar]

I asked myself that question the question you asked me and I have no earthly clue.   I wouldn't even know how to survive in the forest or pitch a tent whatsoever.   In fact, I don't even have a clue as to how to obtain a job shoveling shit for a living.   I wouldn't even know where to go, what to say, or what to put on my resume that would get me the position of shoveling shit.   Another thing, employers these days give out personality tests and not only are the questions are confusing but the very structure of the test is confusing.

The short answer is. You walk into the local store gas station/min-mart/hardware store, and simply ask anyone,, including the clerk, "is anyone hiring around here?
If they ask what do you do? Tell them you're just starting out with no skill but will work hard to learn.
Most likely they will know someone that needs some basic labor, stacking wood, raking leaves, cleaning rain gutters.
Say you love it, got an address?

I remember applying for a job at staples.   One of the personality test questions was do I believe that life is unfair?   It was extremely confusing.

The answer is no, always no, even if you have to lie, they wanted to see how you view life.

The problem with this question is that it is not an opinion based question.  Life is unfair is a statement of fact.   We can look at the starving children in Africa and what goes on in North Korea.

Meaningless! You looked at all the bad in the world and failed to see the good being done by volunteers to make life better for the suffering.
They wanted your perspective and you gave it, that was dumb, the answer will always be no, PERIOD!

That's assuming fair is being used in this particular context.   We also have fair as in average including numerical averages.   Since, life contains man and man invented math or came up with it and math contains the concept of average than life contains averages such as (5+2+2)/3 = 3.   In the mathematical context life is fair.   Another context is that of a feeling towards.  The average belief is that pedophilia is wrong.   Life is fair.   

If we look at it through strictly through the literal context which says if life isn't fair and if fair means proper under the rules then life is not proper under the rules.  Yet, if life is not proper under the rules than how would this hold up?   

As you see, I did not know how to answer such a question as the question is to vague and the question and other questions such as these are context dependent.

By life rules, it was not designed to be fair, that's a given, but your answer reflects how you view life, and if you don't think you've been treated fairly, from this, they will glean that you will steal to make it fair for you.

I don't understand the conversation that took place here.   This is what I do understand.   In this little narrative that took place I do know that there were three characters Solar, lady with bad southern accent, and big guy with a cowboy hat.   The big guy asks a series of questions.   He tells you to park at a specific spot he calls yonder.   Here is where I am extremely and utterly confused and here is where my pragmatic disorder may be coming into play here.   So, this big guy with the cow boy hat is paying you $1200.00 month cash to park in a specific place called yonder to charge your vehicle?     All of a sudden you became a cowboy by plugging in your vehicle and he paid you to plug and charge your vehicle.   Why would he have you get up at 6 am if he was paying you $1200.00 a month to charge your vehicle?   How does cowboy all of a sudden come up in conversation and how did you become a cowboy from this?

That's exactly how the conversation went.
In essence he hired me and told me I could plug into his power for free, that was part of my salary of $1200. per month.

Am I missing something here and misunderstanding the conversation you had with the big guy with the cowboy hat?   Or, is he paying you to be a cowboy along with the tasks that come along with the job?   More than likely this has to be true because paying someone to charge their vehicle $1200.00 per month makes no sense.

He hired me to do the job of a cowboy, even though I had no experience.

No offense, but the conversation seemed very choppy and because of this it can be easily misconstrued.  It comes across to me as though you were being paid to charge your vehicle.

That's how it works in the real world, sometimes people don't like to talk, and as it turned out, over the next two years, John, the owner and I probably had no more than an entire day of conversation, he is a very quiet guy, much of his language was in the form of facial expression, and for me, quite legible, but for you, an alien language.

Can you explain the cowboy's manner of speech to me and help me to understand it if you do not mind?   To me, it is less formal and less pedantic than the way I speak.

The average cowboy believes in America. Believes in always doing the right thing, your word, a handshake is as good as a contract, if you say you will do something, they will take you at your word.
If you do not do as you said you would, you broke your word and ruined their trust.
That's how America used to be for most of us, and beyond the city lines, still is.

[supsalemgr]

That message comes from Henry Ford I believe.   From maxims and axioms we can have corollaries that can follow.  Here is a corollary that follows.  Corollary 1:  The communists and the socialists believe they can make their system work and create a utopia and worker's paradise.   We will call Henry Ford's proposition Maxim 1.  Corollary 1 is false.   No matter what communists and socialists communism and socialism has not be able to work. 

What we have is this

Premise 1: If Maxim 1 then Corollary 1.

Premise 2: Maxim 1

Conclusion: Corollary 1.

Yet the conclusion turns out to be false.

Again what we have is this

Premise 1:  If Maxim 1 then Corollary 1.

Premise 2:  Not (Corollary 1)

Conclusion Not (Maxim 1)

What this says is that if Henry Ford said this "If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't. You are right" and it is true than it must follow that the very beliefs by the followers of Socialism and Communism that they can make it work will eventually make it work.   So far, these beliefs have not panned out so in this case Henry Ford's maxim must be false.   Which means there is at least one case in reality in which belief does not determine whether one can or can't.   If Ford's maxim is falsified in this case then I have to ask what other cases is it falsified in?  What are the specific measures to determine the truth and falseness of Ford's maxim in different cases?

Once again you have over analyzed the quote. It's point is about attitude. Have a good day.

[cubedemon]

The short answer is. You walk into the local store gas station/min-mart/hardware store, and simply ask anyone,, including the clerk, "is anyone hiring around here?
If they ask what do you do? Tell them you're just starting out with no skill but will work hard to learn.
Most likely they will know someone that needs some basic labor, stacking wood, raking leaves, cleaning rain gutters.
Say you love it, got an address?
The answer is no, always no, even if you have to lie, they wanted to see how you view life.

So, it's simple just like that?   

Meaningless! You looked at all the bad in the world and failed to see the good being done by volunteers to make life better for the suffering.
They wanted your perspective and you gave it, that was dumb, the answer will always be no, PERIOD!

I'm going to do something different.  I'm not going to question this any further and accept your answer as a given.   I will just put no from now on and not think about it any further.

By life rules, it was not designed to be fair, that's a given, but your answer reflects how you view life, and if you don't think you've been treated fairly, from this, they will glean that you will steal to make it fair for you.

Okay, I didn't know this.   I didn't know that was their interpretation.   I will keep that in mind from now on.  I'm not going to analyze this further and will accept this as given. 

That's exactly how the conversation went.
In essence he hired me and told me I could plug into his power for free, that was part of my salary of $1200. per month.
 
He hired me to do the job of a cowboy, even though I had no experience.

You know what, that's awesome.  Did he train you and was it a learning curve for you?   I do have a concern.   When it comes to physical labor type jobs I am slow.   This is an issue for me.   The person I could work for when shoveling shit or doing whatever will have a certain productivity level or a certain amount shit shoveled in a given amount of time.   Are there any methods and techniques I can do to increase my productivity level and go a bit faster?

I will say this.   I was able to put some shelves up from Ikea on the wall.  The first time I did it for the pantry I had problems doing it because I had problems centering the shelves.  Low and behold it was suggested to me by a worker in Home Depot that I use what is called a level ruler. 

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v2/729677524_2/BESTIR-taiwan-construction-and-manufacturing-tools-precision-measurement-germany-standard-1500mm-bubble-level-ruler-NO-01308.jpg

I also use stud solvers that I drill into the wall before I use regular screws.  I screw the frames that the shelves will rest on using a screw into the stud solver.   These stud solvers are very sturdy. 

It is a learning curve.   
   

That's how it works in the real world, sometimes people don't like to talk, and as it turned out, over the next two years, John, the owner and I probably had no more than an entire day of conversation, he is a very quiet guy, much of his language was in the form of facial expression, and for me, quite legible, but for you, an alien language.

If I worked for him or someone like him I would probably get used to him.
 

The average cowboy believes in America. Believes in always doing the right thing, your word, a handshake is as good as a contract, if you say you will do something, they will take you at your word.
If you do not do as you said you would, you broke your word and ruined their trust.
That's how America used to be for most of us, and beyond the city lines, still is.

I dream of living in an area such as this.  Where my word is my bond, I can take time to reflect and live my life with full measure, and things are simple.   So, the country is like this?   If it is, than it is not America I have issues with but a segment  of America namely the urban/suburban.   

I really want to know more about how you live Solar in the country?   Is it like Willoughby in the Twilight Zone episode?

[cubedemon]

Once again you have over analyzed the quote. It's point is about attitude. Have a good day.

Why does attitude matter so much so that it is more valued than logic, reason and rationality?   To me attitude is over-emphasized in our society and logic, facts, reason and rationality is under-emphasized.  I remember I did have a job for a week and a half before I was fired for going to slow.  We had to go from classroom to classroom in a school.  I remember seeing a quote on a post that said this by "Attitude is more important than facts."   

I stood there wide eyed and gawking and thinking What the Fuck?   How is attitude more important than the facts themselves?   Why is this so?   

Why is it when I ask logical questions, use reason, and use facts instead of using logic and reason with me the first thing on this site and other sites and IRL is to look at my attitude?   Why?   Why do people do this?   Why is attitude treated as building blocks of reality itself by people in American society?

[cubedemon]

cubedemon, you need to get a babysitter for yourself.  Sit on your ass, and let the world feel sorry for you. 

My cat has more get up and go then you will ever have. 

You should check into how to become a Monk.   

Why did you respond like this? Why question my character instead of the logic of what I said?   Why do people do this?     How did you derive this as a logical response from my logical analysis of Ford's quote?   Again, why is my attitude focused on first?   

[walkstall]

Why did you respond like this? Why question my character instead of the logic of what I said?   Why do people do this?     How did you derive this as a logical response from my logical analysis of Ford's quote?   Again, why is my attitude focused on first?

It's your ATTITUDE that is holding you back!! 

[Solar]

So, it's simple just like that?   

Yes, it's that easy.

I'm going to do something different.  I'm not going to question this any further and accept your answer as a given.   I will just put no from now on and not think about it any further.

Okay, I didn't know this.   I didn't know that was their interpretation.   I will keep that in mind from now on.  I'm not going to analyze this further and will accept this as given. 

Simplicity is the key, keep life simple.

You know what, that's awesome.  Did he train you and was it a learning curve for you?   I do have a concern.   When it comes to physical labor type jobs I am slow.   This is an issue for me.   The person I could work for when shoveling shit or doing whatever will have a certain productivity level or a certain amount shit shoveled in a given amount of time.   Are there any methods and techniques I can do to increase my productivity level and go a bit faster?

Yes, it was awesome, because it was another step in the direction my future took.
And no, no real learning curve, except when it came to breeding, birthing, polling calves, branding castrating/cauterizing, and that took one lesson, the rest was simple commonsense.
The mucking out/shit shoveling you do with a tractor.

I will say this.   I was able to put some shelves up from Ikea on the wall.  The first time I did it for the pantry I had problems doing it because I had problems centering the shelves.  Low and behold it was suggested to me by a worker in Home Depot that I use what is called a level ruler. 

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v2/729677524_2/BESTIR-taiwan-construction-and-manufacturing-tools-precision-measurement-germany-standard-1500mm-bubble-level-ruler-NO-01308.jpg

I also use stud solvers that I drill into the wall before I use regular screws.  I screw the frames that the shelves will rest on using a screw into the stud solver.   These stud solvers are very sturdy. 

It is a learning curve.   

This is why I say "Get Out There, Take The Leap", because you can read every book on every subject, study the directions till you're 80, but you'll never be an expert till you actually do the job.

If I worked for him or someone like him I would probably get used to him.

You would, because he spoke little, gave yo a list of what needed done, and you did it that day, or by the end of the week didn't matter, as long as it was done in time for the season.

I dream of living in an area such as this.  Where my word is my bond, I can take time to reflect and live my life with full measure, and things are simple.   So, the country is like this?   If it is, than it is not America I have issues with but a segment  of America namely the urban/suburban.

Then I'd definitely suggest ranch hand, where room and board is included, anyway, most ranches have housing for the help, but you have to feed yourself on the ranch, but cattle drives, they feed you because you're usually 20 or miles from a store.
To the right person, it's a dream job, to others, it's pure Hell, myself, I loved the Hell out of it....

Here is one of the 4 ranches he and his brother owned. It was sad to see him sell off this last ranch, it was a beautiful piece of history.
The show Bonanza filmed a lot of their back scenes there, long before I worked there.
http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/article/20120309/NEWS/120309906

I really want to know more about how you live Solar in the country?   Is it like Willoughby in the Twilight Zone episode?

It's far easier than living in a city...
And yes, depending where in the country you go, much of it is still like Willoughby, kind of.
Just be sure you avoid large towns, stay way off the beaten path. Maybe someone from the South knows some areas like that, or even in Texas, though it's getting crowded too.

[supsalemgr]

Why does attitude matter so much so that it is more valued than logic, reason and rationality?   To me attitude is over-emphasized in our society and logic, facts, reason and rationality is under-emphasized.  I remember I did have a job for a week and a half before I was fired for going to slow.  We had to go from classroom to classroom in a school.  I remember seeing a quote on a post that said this by "Attitude is more important than facts."   

I stood there wide eyed and gawking and thinking What the Fuck?   How is attitude more important than the facts themselves?   Why is this so?   

Why is it when I ask logical questions, use reason, and use facts instead of using logic and reason with me the first thing on this site and other sites and IRL is to look at my attitude?   Why?   Why do people do this?   Why is attitude treated as building blocks of reality itself by people in American society?

Because it works. In most cases we cannot change certain circumstances in life, but we can control how we approach those circumstances.