It is said that God is perfect meaning complete and he is infinitely wise and knowledgeable.
Ok!
Here is where I have a problem. First, it makes no sense for God to both to be all meaning complete and being infinite. If God has an infinite amount of knowledge which means an infinite amount of knowledge is possible to exist and therefore the concept of complete (not needing anything more) can't exist.
Let's use a number series. More specifically let's use counting numbers. With counting numbers we can always add 1 more to it. If we have the number 5000 we can add one more to make 5001 to 5002 and so on. Can one have the complete set or all the counting numbers if it is possible to add one more to the series. To have a complete series one must be able to determine an end. If one can determine the end of a series one has the complete series.
With the alphabet we have a complete series. Z is the last letter and A is the first letter. I can tell you the entire series of the alphabet. With numbers one can't.
God's wisdom and knowledge is infinite. It can't be measured. There is no end. If there is no end and God's knowledge and wisdom is boundless then how is God completely knowledgeable and completely wise if knowledge and wisdom is boundless like the infinite number series of counting numbers?
How is complete wisdom and infinite wisdom non mutually exclusive? This is another reason I have my doubts about the Biblical God.
Or, am I misunderstanding something again?
Quote from: alienhand on April 22, 2019, 11:16:59 PM
It is said that God is perfect meaning complete and he is infinitely wise and knowledgeable.
Ok!
Here is where I have a problem. First, it makes no sense for God to both to be all meaning complete and being infinite. If God has an infinite amount of knowledge which means an infinite amount of knowledge is possible to exist and therefore the concept of complete (not needing anything more) can't exist.
Let's use a number series. More specifically let's use counting numbers. With counting numbers we can always add 1 more to it. If we have the number 5000 we can add one more to make 5001 to 5002 and so on. Can one have the complete set or all the counting numbers if it is possible to add one more to the series. To have a complete series one must be able to determine an end. If one can determine the end of a series one has the complete series.
With the alphabet we have a complete series. Z is the last letter and A is the first letter. I can tell you the entire series of the alphabet. With numbers one can't.
God's wisdom and knowledge is infinite. It can't be measured. There is no end. If there is no end and God's knowledge and wisdom is boundless then how is God completely knowledgeable and completely wise if knowledge and wisdom is boundless like the infinite number series of counting numbers?
How is complete wisdom and infinite wisdom non mutually exclusive? This is another reason I have my doubts about the Biblical God.
Or, am I misunderstanding something again?
I think u are inadvertently adding something to the bible. The brain does what are called cognitive distortions without us even realizing it.
You know how solar and taxed make you back everything up with facts and sources? Well Christian's do the same thing with the bible, if u make a claim u have to back it up with the bible. So I have to ask, where in the bible (chapter and verse) does it claim that knowledge is infinite? Where are you getting this idea from?
We have to remember that the bible is the source, not any humans interpretation. The church always says to everyone dont take the pastors word for it, look it up in the bible yourself. It's like the whole world has access to the Mueller report so each individual can see the source for himself and see if humans are distorting it. Sometimes distortions are on purpose, the result of evil ppl using the bible for their own ends, but more often it is our sinful minds using cognitive distortions to make things unclear.
Quote from: T Hunt on April 23, 2019, 12:45:41 AM
I think u are inadvertently adding something to the bible. The brain does what are called cognitive distortions without us even realizing it.
Agreed! The brain does do cognitive distortions. No doubt about that!
Quote from: T Hunt on April 23, 2019, 12:45:41 AM
You know how solar and taxed make you back everything up with facts and sources? Well Christian's do the same thing with the bible, if u make a claim u have to back it up with the bible. So I have to ask, where in the bible (chapter and verse) does it claim that knowledge is infinite? Where are you getting this idea from?
Here are some verses.
1 Kgs 4:29
God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment; the breadth of his understanding was as infinite as the sand on the seashore.
Job 11:7
Can you find out the deep things of God, or can you by searching find out the limits of the Almighty [explore His depths, ascend to His heights, extend to His breadths, and comprehend His infinite perfection]?
Psa 139:6
Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it.
Psa 147:5
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
I got some of these verses from here.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Infinite
Where do I get the idea knowledge is infinite?
B/c for God to have infinite knowledge which is what some of these verses seem to say unless again I'm not understanding them then logically infinite knowledge exists.
Think about it like this. If I have jelly beans in a jar then a. something called jelly beans exist. b. jars exist. c. There is a jar that has jelly beans. If God has infinite wisdom and/or infinite knowledge then it must be logically possible for infinite wisdom and infinite knowledge to exist. To have something that something must be possible to exist and it must exist. If God is possible and it is possible for God to have infinite amount of knowledge and wisdom then infinite wisdom and infinite knowledge must exist. Just like if if is possible for one to have jelly beans in a jar then those jelly beans being in that jar must exist.
Quote from: T Hunt on April 23, 2019, 12:45:41 AM
We have to remember that the bible is the source, not any humans interpretation.
Are we not still reading the Bible through our own human interpretation which is considered sinful and flawed? And, let's also consider that some people have mental illnesses and autism spectrum disorders whom are reading the Bible as well. Do you think they would be able to read it as intended or are they reading it through their sinful nature as well as their neurology?
Quote from: T Hunt on April 23, 2019, 12:45:41 AM
The church always says to everyone dont take the pastors word for it, look it up in the bible yourself. It's like the whole world has access to the Mueller report so each individual can see the source for himself and see if humans are distorting it. Sometimes distortions are on purpose, the result of evil ppl using the bible for their own ends, but more often it is our sinful minds using cognitive distortions to make things unclear.
So, how do we tell what is clear or not? How do we tell truth from error? How do we tell that what we read from the Bible, get from any visions or what not comes from our own biases, from God, the devil or an upset stomach? How do we suss out what is what?
Quote from: alienhand on April 22, 2019, 11:16:59 PM
It is said that God is perfect meaning complete and he is infinitely wise and knowledgeable.
Ok!
Here is where I have a problem. First, it makes no sense for God to both to be all meaning complete and being infinite. If God has an infinite amount of knowledge which means an infinite amount of knowledge is possible to exist and therefore the concept of complete (not needing anything more) can't exist.
Let's use a number series. More specifically let's use counting numbers. With counting numbers we can always add 1 more to it. If we have the number 5000 we can add one more to make 5001 to 5002 and so on. Can one have the complete set or all the counting numbers if it is possible to add one more to the series. To have a complete series one must be able to determine an end. If one can determine the end of a series one has the complete series.
With the alphabet we have a complete series. Z is the last letter and A is the first letter. I can tell you the entire series of the alphabet. With numbers one can't.
God's wisdom and knowledge is infinite. It can't be measured. There is no end. If there is no end and God's knowledge and wisdom is boundless then how is God completely knowledgeable and completely wise if knowledge and wisdom is boundless like the infinite number series of counting numbers?
How is complete wisdom and infinite wisdom non mutually exclusive? This is another reason I have my doubts about the Biblical God.
Or, am I misunderstanding something again?
Perspective.
Look at you in the Universe, then take google satellite view and start zooming out, then once earth is a dot, look out into the vastness of the known universe, as you look at the furthest point of light, you know that the light you see no longer exists, right.
And that's just what you can see, now take Gods wisdom, the entity that created time and the vastness of space, you and your understanding of everything amounts to not even a dust speck on a single grain of sand in the vast universe that is the largest beach even imaginable and you're on one of it grains of sand, and you think anyone alive can understand what God knows?
Your question amounts to that of "Why" from a 3 year old. Try thinking for yourself for once, ask yourself answerable questions and work your way out instead of getting stuck in the weeds over something that was never your's to grasp in the first place. Keep in mind, you're just a dust speck no one will ever see.
Remember, you were placed here as a blank slate for a reason, if you had all the answers to life, you'd never grasp the meaning and beauty of life, and that is to explore it, enjoy it, not question its creators motives.
You should not be bothered about your issues with God. God will always be around, with or without you.
You should be worried about Gods issues with you.
Quote from: walkstall on April 23, 2019, 08:02:50 AM
You should not be bothered about your issues with God. God will always be around, with or without you.
You should be worried about Gods issues with you.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote from: walkstall on April 23, 2019, 08:02:50 AM
You should not be bothered about your issues with God. God will always be around, with or without you.
You should be worried about Gods issues with you.
Well, you're right my friend and I hope he leads me to the right path.
Quote from: Solar on April 23, 2019, 07:20:48 AM
Perspective.
Look at you in the Universe, then take google satellite view and start zooming out, then once earth is a dot, look out into the vastness of the known universe, as you look at the furthest point of light, you know that the light you see no longer exists, right.
Ya and it's amazing b/c what we see out there occurred millions to billions of yrs ago. Hmmm! Let's say I come to the country side, we get a large extra cheese pizza and other toppings. We talk about the wonders of life. Millions to Billions of yrs from now aliens point their telescopes this way and see and hear us. That is amazing. Maybe the meaning of life is to eat a pizza w a friend.
Quote from: Solar on April 23, 2019, 07:20:48 AM
And that's just what you can see, now take Gods wisdom, the entity that created time and the vastness of space, you and your understanding of everything amounts to not even a dust speck on a single grain of sand in the vast universe that is the largest beach even imaginable and you're on one of it grains of sand, and you think anyone alive can understand what God knows?
Maybe you're right! Alright, I'll do this. I will keep logic, reason, science to the natural world only and not go beyond. Accept there is a cause for all and don't go beyond it and live my life the best I can.
Quote from: Solar on April 23, 2019, 07:20:48 AM
Your question amounts to that of "Why" from a 3 year old. Try thinking for yourself for once, ask yourself answerable questions and work your way out instead of getting stuck in the weeds over something that was never your's to grasp in the first place. Keep in mind, you're just a dust speck no one will ever see.
Remember, you were placed here as a blank slate for a reason, if you had all the answers to life, you'd never grasp the meaning and beauty of life, and that is to explore it, enjoy it, not question its creators motives.
Maybe you're right! Pizza? :biggrin:
Quote from: alienhand on April 23, 2019, 11:17:45 AM
Ya and it's amazing b/c what we see out there occurred millions to billions of yrs ago. Hmmm! Let's say I come to the country side, we get a large extra cheese pizza and other toppings. We talk about the wonders of life. Millions to Billions of yrs from now aliens point their telescopes this way and see and hear us. That is amazing. Maybe the meaning of life is to eat a pizza w a friend.
Maybe you're right! Alright, I'll do this. I will keep logic, reason, science to the natural world only and not go beyond. Accept there is a cause for all and don't go beyond it and live my life the best I can.
Maybe you're right! Pizza? :biggrin:
Not a bad way to look at it, keeping it simple.
Quote from: walkstall on April 23, 2019, 08:02:50 AM
You should not be bothered about your issues with God. God will always be around, with or without you.
You should be worried about Gods issues with you.
Here is why you are right.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61FqfdQcyVL._SX425_.jpg)
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 02:22:52 AM
Here is why you are right.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61FqfdQcyVL._SX425_.jpg)
But God is not my BOSS. God give
me a choose every day how I am going to live my life. God walks with me everyday, God is my friend and teacher. I did not get this old walking on the wrong side of the street.
Quote from: walkstall on April 24, 2019, 03:28:19 AM
But God is not my BOSS. God give me a choose every day how I am going to live my life. God walks with me everyday, God is my friend and teacher. I did not get this old walking on the wrong side of the street.
He makes the rules and sets the standards and sets the consequences for breaking those standards and consequences. Sounds like a boss to me or a monarch or king.
Doesn't mean God is not your friend or teacher.
So, in the end if he makes the rules and standards and consequences it doesn't matter what one thinks in end. Any argument against his motives or his properties is moot if he exists.
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 04:15:07 AM
He makes the rules and sets the standards and sets the consequences for breaking those standards and consequences. Sounds like a boss to me or a monarch or king.
Doesn't mean God is not your friend or teacher.
So, in the end if he makes the rules and standards and consequences it doesn't matter what one thinks in end. Any argument against his motives or his properties is moot if he exists.
Sure, if you want to break the laws of Natures God, other than that, God gives you free will to be just as stupid as you like. Which sometimes comes with a payment in the form of your life.
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 04:15:07 AM
He makes the rules and sets the standards and sets the consequences for breaking those standards and consequences. Sounds like a boss to me or a monarch or king.
Doesn't mean God is not your friend or teacher.
So, in the end if he makes the rules and standards and consequences it doesn't matter what one thinks in end. Any argument against his motives or his properties is moot if he exists.
LOL God may not live in you as you have not open the door. It's up to you to choose. But like most things in your very young life that you chose other to do for you. It will always be "some one" else's fault. But yes you will have to live with the consequences.
Quote from: walkstall on April 24, 2019, 06:34:11 AM
LOL God may not live in you as you have not open the door. It's up to you to choose. But like most things in your very young life that you chose other to do for you. It will always be "some one" else's fault. But yes you will have to live with the consequences.
But, if one has a sinful nature (as all men since all come up short) how exactly do we have the free will to choose God at all? It's like telling a mentally ill person not to be mentally ill. How can one choose salvation if one is in a sinful state?
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 08:01:37 AM
But, if one has a sinful nature (as all men since all come up short) how exactly do we have the free will to choose God at all? It's like telling a mentally ill person not to be mentally ill. How can one choose salvation if one is in a sinful state?
It's like finding a job, one works at it everyday. No one is going to do it for you.
Quote from: walkstall on April 24, 2019, 08:11:00 AM
It's like finding a job, one works at it everyday. No one is going to do it for you.
No sir! No, it is not! One can't choose righteousness if one has a sinful nature. It's like a cat working to be a dog. Not possible! Solar has been right all along. The answers to the questions I ask aren't meant for me to know. It is b/c of my imperfect and sinful state that is the root of my issues. I can't choose salvation b/c of my sinful nature only God can give it to me as part of his chosen elect. It is God who chooses me b/c he predestines me for salvation. I don't choose him.
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/11605/
http://www.swordwalk.com/17-verses-that-support-predestination-election/
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 08:26:07 AM
No sir! No, it is not! One can't choose righteousness if one has a sinful nature. It's like a cat working to be a dog. Not possible! Solar has been right all along. The answers to the questions I ask aren't meant for me to know. It is b/c of my imperfect and sinful state that is the root of my issues. I can't choose salvation b/c of my sinful nature only God can give it to me as part of his chosen elect. It is God who chooses me b/c he predestines me for salvation. I don't choose him.
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/11605/
http://www.swordwalk.com/17-verses-that-support-predestination-election/
That your problem not Gods. God always has open arms.
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 08:26:07 AM
I don't choose him.
Why? And Why Not?
If you reject God like most libs. You are rejecting the very Freedom the Constitution affords you. Keep in mind, Gods law of Nature, which is the basis of our Freedoms, if you reject God, what or who will protect our Freedoms?
Remember, the govt does not protect said Freedoms, these Freedoms were granted to you by God.
Quote from: Solar on April 24, 2019, 09:34:49 AM
Why? And Why Not?
If you reject God like most libs. You are rejecting the very Freedom the Constitution affords you. Keep in mind, Gods law of Nature, which is the basis of our Freedoms, if you reject God, what or who will protect our Freedoms?
Remember, the govt does not protect said Freedoms, these Freedoms were granted to you by God.
When Walkstall said "You should be worried about Gods issues with you" it was like a light bulb that clicked that gave me some answers to my questions. The problem is free will being bounded to sin. If our free will is bounded in sin then how do we really have the free will to really choose him? It is our sinful nature that we all, except for his elect, rebel and reject him which is why libs reject him. If you were able to truthfully accept him as in Godly and righteous acceptance then he already chose you as his elect. He chose you Solar and Walkstall. You two never chose him.
Truth is, maybe I don't understand and I have so many questions is b/c he didn't choose me as part of his elect. If my own free will is bound to sin and I'm not of his elect then how can I really choose. It is through his grace we're saved not works.
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 10:52:52 AM
When Walkstall said "You should be worried about Gods issues with you" it was like a light bulb that clicked that gave me some answers to my questions. The problem is free will being bounded to sin. If our free will is bounded in sin then how do we really have the free will to really choose him? It is our sinful nature that we all, except for his elect, rebel and reject him which is why libs reject him. If you were able to truthfully accept him as in Godly and righteous acceptance then he already chose you as his elect. He chose you Solar and Walkstall. You two never chose him.
Truth is, maybe I don't understand and I have so many questions is b/c he didn't choose me as part of his elect. If my own free will is bound to sin and I'm not of his elect then how can I really choose. It is through his grace we're saved not works.
"It is through his grace we're saved not works."
You are getting close. God gave us free will knowing well we will stray from his will. Thus he provided us salvation. God does not expect us to be perfect. (Here is where it gets a little fuzzy) He does expect us to reject Satan and strive not to stray. I struggled with this until one day I heard Billy Graham say he sinned every day. That turned the lights on for me. Dr. Graham has been an inspiration to me and I was awakened. To know a man of his faith was a daily sinner opened my eyes.
Here is the bottom line. We have been forgiven for our sins, but we do not have a license to sin. That thought can be confusing and I believe only resolved when one establishes a personal relationship with God.
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 10:52:52 AM
When Walkstall said "You should be worried about Gods issues with you" it was like a light bulb that clicked that gave me some answers to my questions. The problem is free will being bounded to sin. If our free will is bounded in sin then how do we really have the free will to really choose him? It is our sinful nature that we all, except for his elect, rebel and reject him which is why libs reject him. If you were able to truthfully accept him as in Godly and righteous acceptance then he already chose you as his elect. He chose you Solar and Walkstall. You two never chose him.
Truth is, maybe I don't understand and I have so many questions is b/c he didn't choose me as part of his elect. If my own free will is bound to sin and I'm not of his elect then how can I really choose. It is through his grace we're saved not works.
Remember when I said we we're all placed here as blank slates? You are given free will to choose your own path. Choose sin, or choose Righteousness, the choice is yours.
But I guarantee you, you will be miserable if you don't choose right.
I was thinking about this from the other thread.
Solar, I think I know and understand the axiom of where conservative mode of thought and philosophy. I think the underlying assumption is free will and choice. With that, the underlying assumption that everyone has free will that is absolute and everyone has this free will equal in spades to each other.
I find this idea flawed. One's choices that one can choose from can be diminished for others.
Example: This man's personality changed because of a rod through his head.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage
How do you explain this man if we always have a choice in all that we do? If one has diminished capacity then can one choose correctly in everything that is presented?
If one has diminished capacity to one's sinful nature then how can one choose righteousness?
Let's say one is in church. The service is going and one of the things the Pastor does is calls people up to accept Jesus as his lord and savior. The person can choose to make the movements to go up there and utter the things he is told to utter. But, what is the motivation for one to go up there? Is the motivation for Godly and spiritual reasons or is the reason more selfish in nature as in wanting to avoid the punishment of hell.
If the person has a sinful nature the motivation to go up won't be for Godly reasons but for selfish reasons as in avoiding hell. Can one choose to have the right and Godly motivations to be saved? If one chooses to repent why is he repenting? What is the motivation behind his repentance. If motivation is for selfish and ungodly reasons then how is it real repentance?
That's the problem I have with the concept of free will and the ability to choose righteousness and repentance.
When I went to church a long time ago, one of my pastor's said to the congregation to meditate on all things God. I did and I analyzed everything I thought I understood including the concept of free will. It got me thinking what was my motivation for going up to the pulpit to accept Jesus as my lord and savior? Why did I do this? Did I do it b/c of Godly reasons or b/c of selfish reasons like avoiding hell and the fear of hell?
This is another issue I have with God. How can I accept Jesus if my very nature is fallen and in a state of sin? Did I deceive myself and those around me?
And, the more I did try to read the Bible and listened to others the less it all made sense to me.
Quote from: alienhand on April 23, 2019, 01:31:58 AM
Agreed! The brain does do cognitive distortions. No doubt about that!
Here are some verses.
1 Kgs 4:29
God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment; the breadth of his understanding was as infinite as the sand on the seashore.
Job 11:7
Can you find out the deep things of God, or can you by searching find out the limits of the Almighty [explore His depths, ascend to His heights, extend to His breadths, and comprehend His infinite perfection]?
Psa 139:6
Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it.
Psa 147:5
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
I got some of these verses from here.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Infinite
Where do I get the idea knowledge is infinite?
B/c for God to have infinite knowledge which is what some of these verses seem to say unless again I'm not understanding them then logically infinite knowledge exists.
Think about it like this. If I have jelly beans in a jar then a. something called jelly beans exist. b. jars exist. c. There is a jar that has jelly beans. If God has infinite wisdom and/or infinite knowledge then it must be logically possible for infinite wisdom and infinite knowledge to exist. To have something that something must be possible to exist and it must exist. If God is possible and it is possible for God to have infinite amount of knowledge and wisdom then infinite wisdom and infinite knowledge must exist. Just like if if is possible for one to have jelly beans in a jar then those jelly beans being in that jar must exist.
Ok here is a big part of the problem. Did u notice when u did that search h that it was using all of the dozens of different interpretations possible to find the word infinite? I would contend that that word doesnt match up well with the original text. Here is a better translation of the first example you gave, "God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as
measureless as the sand on the seashore."
You see here the word used is Measureless, which simply means cannot be measured by humans. Not the same as infinite. I've actually never heard the idea that knowledge is infinite before and I'm pretty certain the bible doesnt actually say that, just that knowledge is vast, which I think we can all agree on.
Start by always looking at multiple translations of a verse with a weight towards the NIV and KJV. (There are dozens of obscure translations. Did you know 90+% of available translations today were made in the last 50 or so years? Another modern attack by the devil on Gods word) I'm not saying you need to look at EVERY translation cause you would never finish, but at least a few of the most used.
Since you are a beginner at the bible follow my advise and stick with the NIV or the KJV. These are the oldest and most trusted versions out there used by the most people, and my synod(group of churches) did a thorough review of the newest version of the NIV a few years back and found it to be accurate. When I say review I mean dozens of pastor who all can read and write Greek, and hebrew(original biblical languages) all studying it for a few years when it came out.
"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:14
QuoteAre we not still reading the Bible through our own human interpretation which is considered sinful and flawed? And, let's also consider that some people have mental illnesses and autism spectrum disorders whom are reading the Bible as well. Do you think they would be able to read it as intended or are they reading it through their sinful nature as well as their neurology?
So, how do we tell what is clear or not? How do we tell truth from error? How do we tell that what we read from the Bible, get from any visions or what not comes from our own biases, from God, the devil or an upset stomach? How do we suss out what is what?
Ok great questions. I would start with the simple answer that you find the truth of the bible much like you find truth elsewhere in life, much like you find conservative truths. How do you find those truths? Well you start by doing exactly what you are doing as a young man, asking older men you trust (aka solar, et al) for their wisdom and experience on the issue. That's how young men throughout history have learn the important things in life.
"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another." Prov 27:17
Also, you act as though you are looking at the bible and trying to figure it out alone, but you aren't. All who are moved by God search him out in his word and are brothers(and sisters) in christ. Now while it is perfectly possible to have a one on one relationship with God, he still wants his children to come together and help each other.
"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." Matt 18:20
"And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Heb 10:24
And lastly God himself is ultimately in charge and control of his word and you can trust him to keep his message true.
"As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:10
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 11:51:05 PM
I was thinking about this from the other thread.
Solar, I think I know and understand the axiom of where conservative mode of thought and philosophy. I think the underlying assumption is free will and choice. With that, the underlying assumption that everyone has free will that is absolute and everyone has this free will equal in spades to each other.
I find this idea flawed. One's choices that one can choose from can be diminished for others.
Example: This man's personality changed because of a rod through his head.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage
How do you explain this man if we always have a choice in all that we do? If one has diminished capacity then can one choose correctly in everything that is presented?
If one has diminished capacity to one's sinful nature then how can one choose righteousness?
This is why the US is so special, we are born with inalienable Rights that level the playing field. From birth you are not designated by the govt class system, you are free to choose your own path, be it poverty or prosperity, the govt does not stand as an impediment.
However, being that life itself is not fair, not everyone is afforded the same pleasures of possible success.
But under our form of govt, the rules are the same for everyone.
If life we fair? The world wouldn't have perverts and predators, we wouldn't need locks or an army, police force. The Bill of Rights lists out Rights protected by God, not Govt. Your belief in God keeps said Rights alive.
No, life isn't fair and that's the beauty and simplicity of life, because if it were fair, we'd all be bored to death because there wouldn't be any challenges, which brings us to the blessing of Free Will, and why sustaining the sanctity of marriage and the family unit are so damned important, without it, children and their level playing field are quickly diminished and evil wins.
the path of evil is the easiest to take and the most unrewarding.
Quote from: alienhand on April 23, 2019, 11:17:45 AM
Ya and it's amazing b/c what we see out there occurred millions to billions of yrs ago. Hmmm! Let's say I come to the country side, we get a large extra cheese pizza and other toppings. We talk about the wonders of life. Millions to Billions of yrs from now aliens point their telescopes this way and see and hear us. That is amazing. Maybe the meaning of life is to eat a pizza w a friend.
Maybe you're right! Alright, I'll do this. I will keep logic, reason, science to the natural world only and not go beyond. Accept there is a cause for all and don't go beyond it and live my life the best I can.
Maybe you're right! Pizza? :biggrin:
I have to challenge you on this one. Perhaps the science behind the bible is your biggest stumbling block. Please provide evidence. Can you prove the world is millions of years old? I know modern scientists cannot and can only claim this based off of massive assumptions, such as the assumption that the speed of light never changes which we cannot for sure say. Have you looked into any of the other possibilities Christian scientists have postulated?
Quote from: alienhand on April 25, 2019, 03:42:08 AM
Let's say one is in church. The service is going and one of the things the Pastor does is calls people up to accept Jesus as his lord and savior. The person can choose to make the movements to go up there and utter the things he is told to utter. But, what is the motivation for one to go up there? Is the motivation for Godly and spiritual reasons or is the reason more selfish in nature as in wanting to avoid the punishment of hell.
If the person has a sinful nature the motivation to go up won't be for Godly reasons but for selfish reasons as in avoiding hell. Can one choose to have the right and Godly motivations to be saved? If one chooses to repent why is he repenting? What is the motivation behind his repentance. If motivation is for selfish and ungodly reasons then how is it real repentance?
That's the problem I have with the concept of free will and the ability to choose righteousness and repentance.
When I went to church a long time ago, one of my pastor's said to the congregation to meditate on all things God. I did and I analyzed everything I thought I understood including the concept of free will. It got me thinking what was my motivation for going up to the pulpit to accept Jesus as my lord and savior? Why did I do this? Did I do it b/c of Godly reasons or b/c of selfish reasons like avoiding hell and the fear of hell?
This is another issue I have with God. How can I accept Jesus if my very nature is fallen and in a state of sin? Did I deceive myself and those around me?
And, the more I did try to read the Bible and listened to others the less it all made sense to me.
Lose this so called "Religious" aspect, look at the Bible for what it is, a call to spirituality, a return to God and his teachings.
Read Jesus words, read the Book of Thomas, the words of Jesus and what he was trying to teach.
Keep in mind, many of the stories in the bible are metaphorical in nature so people of the day could understand and follow along and understand and pass along these stories unfettered, because the majority of the people simply couldn't read back in the day.
But try and understand the message being presented, and if you can't, that's where Bible study groups come in, so certain topics can be discussed in depth.
My wife has one with all sisters once a week, where they delve into what Gods word means for them. Look online, there are thousands of groups in your own area, or simply join an online group.
Try and avoid the pomp and circumstance of religions and delve into the true meaning of God, and believe me, you don't need a church for that.
But more importantly? You don't need a mediator to talk to God.
Alienhead, here is a good section of Roman's 7 which I think you will find helpful in understanding this issue. It is long tho. In fact Alienhead, you just need to read all of the book of Roman's. That is a very good summary of the concept of Salvation
"The Law and Sin
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." b 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature d a slave to the law of sin."
Quote from: alienhand on April 24, 2019, 10:52:52 AM
Truth is, maybe I don't understand and I have so many questions is b/c he didn't choose me as part of his elect. If my own free will is bound to sin and I'm not of his elect then how can I really choose. It is through his grace we're saved not works.
Wrong. We all have questions, more when we are younger but still many when we are old. He did choose you alienhead, dont ever doubt that. That is the truth the devil wants to take from you. Whenever you doubt your salvation you are buying into the devil, the father of lies. The lie he gets so many to believe is that they arent saved.
:biggrin:
T-Hunt, you gave me a wealth of info to go on. For one, I didn't realize that the word infinite meant something different then how it is used in mathematics. When one says "In God's infinite wisdom..." it means a wisdom that is so profound a human being couldn't begin to understand or grasp it. Infinite means to profound to imagine or grasp not boundless like the counting numbers in math.
Quote from: supsalemgr on April 24, 2019, 11:08:07 AM
"It is through his grace we're saved not works."
You are getting close. God gave us free will knowing well we will stray from his will. Thus he provided us salvation. God does not expect us to be perfect. (Here is where it gets a little fuzzy) He does expect us to reject Satan and strive not to stray. I struggled with this until one day I heard Billy Graham say he sinned every day. That turned the lights on for me. Dr. Graham has been an inspiration to me and I was awakened. To know a man of his faith was a daily sinner opened my eyes.
Let's take this a step further. Even tho God wants us to do good works for him, even those works are stained with our inherent sin and if not for jesus sacrifice those good works would also be disgusting to our perfect God
"6All of us have become like one who is unclean, and
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;" Isaiah 64:6
(FYI the 'filthy rags' referred to here are the rags women used before tampons...)
QuoteHere is the bottom line. We have been forgiven for our sins, but we do not have a license to sin. That thought can be confusing and I believe only resolved when one establishes a personal relationship with God.
Here is some verses for that...
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, " Hebrews 10:26
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Roman's 6:1
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Roman's 6:15
Quote from: alienhand on April 25, 2019, 05:35:10 AM
:biggrin:
T-Hunt, you gave me a wealth of info to go on. For one, I didn't realize that the word infinite meant something different then how it is used in mathematics. When one says "In God's infinite wisdom..." it means a wisdom that is so profound a human being couldn't begin to understand or grasp it. Infinite means to profound to imagine or grasp not boundless like the counting numbers in math.
Ya biblical topics are very in depth and headache forming.
One last thing I thought of.
Assume that we do all 'choose' God. God exists outside time. He views everything as in the past already. So from his perspective, we have already chosen or rejected him. So in this sense it is both our free will 'choice' and predetermined in the sense that God already knows what our ' choice' will be.
Not sure if that's biblically accurate or not but it is sure an interesting way of looking at it.
Ok I'm done for now, but I'll be back later to see if I can answer any other of your questions.
Quote from: T Hunt on April 25, 2019, 05:48:19 AM
Ya biblical topics are very in depth and headache forming. I'm done for now, but I'll be back later to see if I can answer any other of your questions.
Ya! Just relax and come back and answer whenever you want.
Quote from: T Hunt on April 25, 2019, 04:43:24 AM
I have to challenge you on this one. Perhaps the science behind the bible is your biggest stumbling block. Please provide evidence. Can you prove the world is millions of years old? I know modern scientists cannot and can only claim this based off of massive assumptions, such as the assumption that the speed of light never changes which we cannot for sure say. Have you looked into any of the other possibilities Christian scientists have postulated?
:biggrin:
Sir, I couldn't do this b/c it's beyond my capacity to do as I don't have the knowledge, funds or equipment.
Quote from: Solar on April 25, 2019, 04:52:51 AM
Lose this so called "Religious" aspect, look at the Bible for what it is, a call to spirituality, a return to God and his teachings.
"A call to spirituality." My friend, I have zero clue as to what you mean by this. When people in general speak like this it goes above my head.
Quote from: Solar on April 25, 2019, 04:52:51 AM
Read Jesus words, read the Book of Thomas, the words of Jesus and what he was trying to teach.
Keep in mind, many of the stories in the bible are metaphorical in nature so people of the day could understand and follow along and understand and pass along these stories unfettered, because the majority of the people simply couldn't read back in the day.
I will try to do so. But, I would like for you to keep something in mind as well. I'm Autistic. I don't think as most people do. I'm very concrete and literal in my thoughts. I have problems with metaphorical, abstract language and abstract thinking. I'm being asked by others on Earth and God himself to read works that were written for those who had a better grasp of abstract language, metaphorical and abstract thinking then I do. And, it begs the question was the Bible written for me and those like me (People on the Autism Spectrum)?
Quote from: Solar on April 25, 2019, 04:52:51 AM
But try and understand the message being presented, and if you can't, that's where Bible study groups come in, so certain topics can be discussed in depth.
My wife has one with all sisters once a week, where they delve into what Gods word means for them. Look online, there are thousands of groups in your own area, or simply join an online group.
Try and avoid the pomp and circumstance of religions and delve into the true meaning of God, and believe me, you don't need a church for that.
[/quote]
I could try joining a group. I would need a group in which that group accommodated Autistic folks like myself into it and to understand the nature of this disorder. I wish there was an Autistics for God or Jesus group in which non-autistics were the minority (signficant minority like maybe 40 or so percent) and they played supporting roles and interjected with things we would not have understood b/c we are autistic. Maybe, if we're taking something to literally or going to much into the weeds as you call it.
Maybe those non-autistics could be family members of those autistic folks.
That would be awesome and that would be a group for me.
Quote from: Solar on April 25, 2019, 04:52:51 AM
But more importantly? You don't need a mediator to talk to God.
I will say this is one of the better parts of the Bible. (Even with this story I still find certain aspects make no sense but I digress.)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6%3A9-9%3A17&version=NIV
Here is why I like this part of the Bible.
1. It tells what God is going to do.
2. It tells why he is going to do it.
3. It tells how he is going to do it.
4. It tells Noah what he is expected to do. Nothing is open to interpretation to Noah and everything is laid out for him including the blueprints for his Ark and the measurements.
This part is concrete. It's specific. It leaves little to no room for interpretation. God makes his language, wishes and reasoning known. There is little to no guesswork that I have to do.
Quote from: alienhand on April 22, 2019, 11:16:59 PM
It is said that God is perfect meaning complete and he is infinitely wise and knowledgeable.
Ok!
Here is where I have a problem. First, it makes no sense for God to both to be all meaning complete and being infinite. If God has an infinite amount of knowledge which means an infinite amount of knowledge is possible to exist and therefore the concept of complete (not needing anything more) can't exist.
Let's use a number series. More specifically let's use counting numbers. With counting numbers we can always add 1 more to it. If we have the number 5000 we can add one more to make 5001 to 5002 and so on. Can one have the complete set or all the counting numbers if it is possible to add one more to the series. To have a complete series one must be able to determine an end. If one can determine the end of a series one has the complete series.
With the alphabet we have a complete series. Z is the last letter and A is the first letter. I can tell you the entire series of the alphabet. With numbers one can't.
God's wisdom and knowledge is infinite. It can't be measured. There is no end. If there is no end and God's knowledge and wisdom is boundless then how is God completely knowledgeable and completely wise if knowledge and wisdom is boundless like the infinite number series of counting numbers?
How is complete wisdom and infinite wisdom non mutually exclusive? This is another reason I have my doubts about the Biblical God.
Or, am I misunderstanding something again?
Yes, you are misunderstanding EVERYTHING.
Despite what many will tell you, Humans are mildly evolved APES - and not much more.
GOD loves us, blah the F blah.
Yes, HE really does - that much is true. HE also loves Whales, Cats, Dogs - and Radishes.
His true form and motives cannot possibly be comprehended except in a very childish and crude way by us.
Yes, I know this explanation is so very convenient for those who believe (like me).
It makes HIM totally undefinable and unprovable.
EXCEPT for a single word. He is the CREATOR.
That much, hopefully, we can understand.
Quote from: alienhand on April 27, 2019, 09:15:07 PM
"A call to spirituality." My friend, I have zero clue as to what you mean by this. When people in general speak like this it goes above my head.
You've made the mistake of conflating religion to God.
Man created religion, God did not, just attending church does not get you any closer to God, though this is another subject altogether, but as long as you conflate religion to God, you're going to have barricades in the way.
QuoteI will try to do so. But, I would like for you to keep something in mind as well. I'm Autistic. I don't think as most people do. I'm very concrete and literal in my thoughts. I have problems with metaphorical, abstract language and abstract thinking. I'm being asked by others on Earth and God himself to read works that were written for those who had a better grasp of abstract language, metaphorical and abstract thinking then I do. And, it begs the question was the Bible written for me and those like me (People on the Autism Spectrum)?
My wife has one with all sisters once a week, where they delve into what Gods word means for them. Look online, there are thousands of groups in your own area, or simply join an online group.
Try and avoid the pomp and circumstance of religions and delve into the true meaning of God, and believe me, you don't need a church for that.
I could try joining a group. I would need a group in which that group accommodated Autistic folks like myself into it and to understand the nature of this disorder. I wish there was an Autistics for God or Jesus group in which non-autistics were the minority (signficant minority like maybe 40 or so percent) and they played supporting roles and interjected with things we would not have understood b/c we are autistic. Maybe, if we're taking something to literally or going to much into the weeds as you call it.
Maybe those non-autistics could be family members of those autistic folks.
That would be awesome and that would be a group for me.
I will say this is one of the better parts of the Bible. (Even with this story I still find certain aspects make no sense but I digress.)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6%3A9-9%3A17&version=NIV
Here is why I like this part of the Bible.
1. It tells what God is going to do.
2. It tells why he is going to do it.
3. It tells how he is going to do it.
4. It tells Noah what he is expected to do. Nothing is open to interpretation to Noah and everything is laid out for him including the blueprints for his Ark and the measurements.
This part is concrete. It's specific. It leaves little to no room for interpretation. God makes his language, wishes and reasoning known. There is little to no guesswork that I have to do.
There are online bible study groups, there are even sites that offer biblical explanation to autistic. https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209372
But try and keep an open mind, God talks to the individual, you do not need an intermediary, unless you never seem to make the connection, that was the Catholic church take, to use intermediaries for those seeking, but could not find God.
Again, I have zero use for church and religions, but if it helps you find God, go for it.
Quote from: Solar on April 28, 2019, 05:38:03 AM
You've made the mistake of conflating religion to God.
Man created religion, God did not, just attending church does not get you any closer to God, though this is another subject altogether, but as long as you conflate religion to God, you're going to have barricades in the way.
I've always thought religion and God were one and the same. I did not realize they were not. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this verse.
https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm
Quote from: Solar on April 28, 2019, 05:38:03 AM
There are online bible study groups, there are even sites that offer biblical explanation to autistic. https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209372
Wrongplanet is awesome! I love that website.
Quote from: Solar on April 28, 2019, 05:38:03 AM
But try and keep an open mind, God talks to the individual, you do not need an intermediary, unless you never seem to make the connection, that was the Catholic church take, to use intermediaries for those seeking, but could not find God.
Again, I have zero use for church and religions, but if it helps you find God, go for it.
I would rather do an online study group. I would be most comfortable with that for now. Maybe in the future meet with a group at a restaurant or something.
I will try to have an open mind.
I'm with this guy as well.
https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209372#p4902428
I have difficulty with the emotional side of things. And, I would need to discuss things on an intellectual level. And, I've seen BS in the church especially political BS. Was politics, BS and demanding all kinds of tithes really what God was about? How much of the tithes really go to help the poor and uplifting others. I don't trust churches as far as I can throw them.
Quote from: alienhand on April 28, 2019, 06:19:51 AM
I've always thought religion and God were one and the same. I did not realize they were not. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this verse.
https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm
Wrongplanet is awesome! I love that website.
I would rather do an online study group. I would be most comfortable with that for now. Maybe in the future meet with a group at a restaurant or something.
I will try to have an open mind.
I'm with this guy as well.
https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209372#p4902428
I have difficulty with the emotional side of things. And, I would need to discuss things on an intellectual level. And, I've seen BS in the church especially political BS. Was politics, BS and demanding all kinds of tithes really what God was about? How much of the tithes really go to help the poor and uplifting others. I don't trust churches as far as I can throw them.
Keep in mind, King James rewrote the bible around Jesus. But that doesn't mean you can't find spirituality on your own. Even delve into reading the Old Testament to get an idea of how the world existed before the big rewrite.
I have no issue with Jesus, I think King James did him and Christians a huge disservice by leaving out the Book of Thomas, and I assume it had much to do with creating an image the church wanted the masses to congeal around, and ignore the externalities that comprised Jesus as a great thinker, thoughts most likely viewed as heretical to the teachings of the church at the time.
But when looked at by today's standards, shows what a genius he was, he was truly an amazing man. He had a far deeper connection to God than most realized, most think God gave us Jesus and that was that, but Jesus kept his connection to God, just as you and I converse here, Jesus had an even better line to God than that, he understood every aspect of who and what God was, his plan, his love for man, the planet and the universe.
Read the book of Thomas, or find a video series explaining it might work better for you, but you need to read it for yourself. Keep in mind, the Book of Thomas was only just recently discovered in the Middle East in the mid 40s on scrolls buried in a cave, and it took years to decipher, so this is in a sense new news for most folks since the church for the most part still ignores it.
Are you talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Quote from: alienhand on April 28, 2019, 08:34:37 AM
Are you talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls?
No.
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Gospel-of-Thomas-Scholars-Version.pdf
Quote from: Solar on April 28, 2019, 08:45:01 AM
No.
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Gospel-of-Thomas-Scholars-Version.pdf
alright! I'll give it a read.