Author Topic: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite  (Read 2075 times)

Offline alienhand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2019, 05:35:10 AM »
 :biggrin:

T-Hunt, you gave me a wealth of info to go on.  For one, I didn't realize that the word infinite meant something different then how it is used in mathematics.   When one says "In God's infinite wisdom..." it means a wisdom that is so profound a human being couldn't begin to understand or grasp it.  Infinite means to profound to imagine or grasp not boundless like the counting numbers in math.

Offline T Hunt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 656
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2019, 05:44:22 AM »
"It is through his grace we're saved not works."

You are getting close. God gave us free will knowing well we will stray from his will. Thus he provided us salvation. God does not expect us to be perfect. (Here is where it gets a little fuzzy) He does expect us to reject Satan and strive not to stray. I struggled with this until one day I heard Billy Graham say he sinned every day. That turned the lights on for me. Dr. Graham has been an inspiration to me and I was awakened. To know a man of his faith was a daily sinner opened my eyes.

Let's take this a step further. Even tho God wants us to do good works for him, even those works are stained with our inherent sin and if not for jesus sacrifice those good works would also be disgusting to our perfect God

"6All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;" Isaiah 64:6
(FYI the 'filthy rags' referred to here are the rags women used before tampons...)



Quote
Here is the bottom line. We have been forgiven for our sins, but we do not have a license to sin. That thought can be confusing and I believe only resolved when one establishes a personal relationship with God.

Here is some verses for that...
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, " Hebrews 10:26

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Roman's 6:1

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Roman's 6:15

Offline T Hunt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 656
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2019, 05:48:19 AM »
:biggrin:

T-Hunt, you gave me a wealth of info to go on.  For one, I didn't realize that the word infinite meant something different then how it is used in mathematics.   When one says "In God's infinite wisdom..." it means a wisdom that is so profound a human being couldn't begin to understand or grasp it.  Infinite means to profound to imagine or grasp not boundless like the counting numbers in math.


Ya biblical topics are very in depth and headache forming.

One last thing I thought of.
Assume that we do all 'choose' God. God exists outside time. He views everything as in the past already. So from his perspective, we have already chosen or rejected him. So in this sense it is both our free will 'choice' and predetermined in the sense that God already knows what our ' choice' will be.

Not sure if that's biblically accurate or not but it is sure an interesting way of looking at it.

Ok I'm done for now, but I'll be back later to see if I can answer any other of your questions.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 05:57:56 AM by T Hunt »

Offline alienhand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2019, 05:54:31 AM »


Ya biblical topics are very in depth and headache forming. I'm done for now, but I'll be back later to see if I can answer any other of your questions.

Ya!  Just relax and come back and answer whenever you want. 

Offline alienhand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2019, 05:59:25 AM »
I have to challenge you on this one. Perhaps the science behind the bible is your biggest stumbling block. Please provide evidence. Can you prove the world is millions of years old? I know modern scientists cannot and can only claim this based off of massive assumptions, such as the assumption that the speed of light never changes which we cannot for sure say. Have you looked into any of the other possibilities Christian scientists have postulated?

 :biggrin:

Sir, I couldn't do this b/c it's beyond my capacity to do as I don't have the knowledge, funds or equipment. 

Offline alienhand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2019, 09:15:07 PM »
Lose this so called "Religious" aspect, look at the Bible for what it is, a call to spirituality, a return to God and his teachings.

"A call to spirituality."  My friend, I have zero clue as to what you mean by this.  When people in general speak like this it goes above my head.   

Read Jesus words, read the Book of Thomas, the words of Jesus and what he was trying to teach.
Keep in mind, many of the  stories in the bible are metaphorical in nature so people of the day could understand and follow along and understand and pass along these stories unfettered, because the majority of the people simply couldn't read back in the day.

I will try to do so.   But, I would like for you to keep something in mind as well.  I'm Autistic.  I don't think as most people do.  I'm very concrete and literal in my thoughts.   I have problems with metaphorical, abstract language and abstract thinking.  I'm being asked by others on Earth and God himself to read works that were written for those who had a better grasp of abstract language, metaphorical and abstract thinking then I do.  And, it begs the question was the Bible written for me and those like me (People on the Autism Spectrum)?

But try and understand the message being presented, and if you can't, that's where Bible study groups come in, so certain topics can be discussed in depth.

My wife has one with all sisters once a week, where they delve into what Gods word means for them. Look online, there are thousands of groups in your own area, or simply join an online group.

Try and avoid the pomp and circumstance of religions and delve into the true meaning of God, and believe me, you don't need a church for that.
[/quote]

I could try joining a group.  I would need a group in which that group accommodated Autistic folks like myself into it and to understand the nature of this disorder.  I wish there was an Autistics for God or Jesus group in which non-autistics were the minority (signficant minority like maybe 40 or so percent) and they played supporting roles and interjected with things we would not have understood b/c we are autistic.  Maybe, if we're taking something to literally or going to much into the weeds as you call it. 

Maybe those non-autistics could be family members of those autistic folks. 

That would be awesome and that would be a group for me.   

But more importantly? You don't need a mediator to talk to God.

I will say this is one of the better parts of the Bible.  (Even with this story I still find certain aspects make no sense but I digress.)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6%3A9-9%3A17&version=NIV

Here is why I like this part of the Bible. 

1.  It tells what God is going to do.

2.  It tells why he is going to do it.

3.  It tells how he is going to do it.

4.  It tells Noah what he is expected to do.  Nothing is open to interpretation to Noah and everything is laid out for him including the blueprints for his Ark and the measurements.   

This part is concrete.  It's specific.  It leaves little to no room for interpretation.  God makes his language, wishes and reasoning known.  There is little to no guesswork that I have to do.

Offline Rotwang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2019, 09:37:28 PM »
It is said that God is perfect meaning complete and he is infinitely wise and knowledgeable. 

Ok!

Here is where I have a problem.  First, it makes no sense for God to both to be all meaning complete and being infinite.   If God has an infinite amount of knowledge which means an infinite amount of knowledge is possible to exist and therefore the concept of complete (not needing anything more) can't exist. 

Let's use a number series.  More specifically let's use counting numbers.  With counting numbers we can always add 1 more to it.  If we have the number 5000 we can add one more to make 5001 to 5002 and so on.  Can one have the complete set or all the counting numbers if it is possible to add one more to the series.  To have a complete series one must be able to determine an end.  If one can determine the end of a series one has the complete series.

With the alphabet we have a complete series.  Z is the last letter and A is the first letter.  I can tell you the entire series of the alphabet.  With numbers one can't.

God's wisdom and knowledge is infinite.  It can't be measured.  There is no end.  If there is no end and God's knowledge and wisdom is boundless then how is God completely knowledgeable and completely wise if knowledge and wisdom is boundless like the infinite number series of counting numbers?

How is complete wisdom and infinite wisdom non mutually exclusive?  This is another reason I have my doubts about the Biblical God. 

Or, am I misunderstanding something again?

Yes, you are misunderstanding EVERYTHING.

Despite what many will tell you, Humans are mildly evolved APES - and not much more.

GOD loves us, blah the F blah.

Yes, HE really does - that much is true. HE also loves Whales, Cats, Dogs - and Radishes.

His true form and motives cannot possibly be comprehended except in a very childish and crude way by us.

Yes, I know this explanation is so very convenient for those who believe (like me).

It makes HIM totally undefinable and unprovable.

EXCEPT for a single word. He is the CREATOR.

That much, hopefully, we can understand.


Offline Solar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 66945
  • Gender: Male
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2019, 05:38:03 AM »
"A call to spirituality."  My friend, I have zero clue as to what you mean by this.  When people in general speak like this it goes above my head.   
You've made the mistake of conflating religion to God.
Man created religion, God did not, just attending church does not get you any closer to God, though this is another subject altogether, but as long as you conflate religion to God, you're going to have barricades in the way.

Quote
I will try to do so.   But, I would like for you to keep something in mind as well.  I'm Autistic.  I don't think as most people do.  I'm very concrete and literal in my thoughts.   I have problems with metaphorical, abstract language and abstract thinking.  I'm being asked by others on Earth and God himself to read works that were written for those who had a better grasp of abstract language, metaphorical and abstract thinking then I do.  And, it begs the question was the Bible written for me and those like me (People on the Autism Spectrum)?

My wife has one with all sisters once a week, where they delve into what Gods word means for them. Look online, there are thousands of groups in your own area, or simply join an online group.

Try and avoid the pomp and circumstance of religions and delve into the true meaning of God, and believe me, you don't need a church for that.


I could try joining a group.  I would need a group in which that group accommodated Autistic folks like myself into it and to understand the nature of this disorder.  I wish there was an Autistics for God or Jesus group in which non-autistics were the minority (signficant minority like maybe 40 or so percent) and they played supporting roles and interjected with things we would not have understood b/c we are autistic.  Maybe, if we're taking something to literally or going to much into the weeds as you call it. 

Maybe those non-autistics could be family members of those autistic folks. 

That would be awesome and that would be a group for me.   

I will say this is one of the better parts of the Bible.  (Even with this story I still find certain aspects make no sense but I digress.)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6%3A9-9%3A17&version=NIV

Here is why I like this part of the Bible. 

1.  It tells what God is going to do.

2.  It tells why he is going to do it.

3.  It tells how he is going to do it.

4.  It tells Noah what he is expected to do.  Nothing is open to interpretation to Noah and everything is laid out for him including the blueprints for his Ark and the measurements.   

This part is concrete.  It's specific.  It leaves little to no room for interpretation.  God makes his language, wishes and reasoning known.  There is little to no guesswork that I have to do.


There are online bible study groups, there are even sites that offer biblical explanation to autistic. https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209372
But try and keep an open mind, God talks to the individual, you do not need an intermediary, unless you never seem to make the connection, that was the Catholic church take, to use intermediaries for those seeking, but could not find God.
Again, I have zero use for church and religions, but if it helps you find God, go for it.
#WWG1WGA

Offline alienhand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2019, 06:19:51 AM »
You've made the mistake of conflating religion to God.
Man created religion, God did not, just attending church does not get you any closer to God, though this is another subject altogether, but as long as you conflate religion to God, you're going to have barricades in the way.

I've always thought religion and God were one and the same.   I did not realize they were not.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding this verse.

https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm

There are online bible study groups, there are even sites that offer biblical explanation to autistic. https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209372


Wrongplanet is awesome!  I love that website. 

But try and keep an open mind, God talks to the individual, you do not need an intermediary, unless you never seem to make the connection, that was the Catholic church take, to use intermediaries for those seeking, but could not find God.
Again, I have zero use for church and religions, but if it helps you find God, go for it.

I would rather do an online study group.  I would be most comfortable with that for now.  Maybe in the future meet with a group at a restaurant or something. 

I will try to have an open mind. 

I'm with this guy as well.

https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209372#p4902428

I have difficulty with the emotional side of things.  And, I would need to discuss things on an intellectual level.  And, I've seen BS in the church especially political BS. Was politics, BS and demanding all kinds of tithes really what God was about?  How much of the tithes really go to help the poor and uplifting others.  I don't trust churches as far as I can throw them.

Offline Solar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 66945
  • Gender: Male
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2019, 08:12:15 AM »
I've always thought religion and God were one and the same.   I did not realize they were not.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding this verse.

https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm

Wrongplanet is awesome!  I love that website. 

I would rather do an online study group.  I would be most comfortable with that for now.  Maybe in the future meet with a group at a restaurant or something. 

I will try to have an open mind. 

I'm with this guy as well.

https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209372#p4902428

I have difficulty with the emotional side of things.  And, I would need to discuss things on an intellectual level.  And, I've seen BS in the church especially political BS. Was politics, BS and demanding all kinds of tithes really what God was about?  How much of the tithes really go to help the poor and uplifting others.  I don't trust churches as far as I can throw them.
Keep in mind, King James rewrote the bible around Jesus. But that doesn't mean you can't find spirituality on your own. Even delve into reading the Old Testament to get an idea of how the world existed before the big rewrite.
I have no issue with Jesus, I think King James did him and Christians a huge disservice by leaving out the Book of Thomas, and I assume it had much to do with creating an image the church wanted the masses to congeal around, and ignore the externalities that comprised Jesus as a great thinker, thoughts most likely viewed as heretical to the teachings of the church at the time.

But when looked at by today's standards, shows what a genius he was, he was truly an amazing man. He had a far deeper connection to God than most realized, most think God gave us Jesus and that was that, but Jesus kept his connection to God, just as you and I converse here, Jesus had an even better line to God than that, he understood every aspect of who and what God was, his plan, his love for man, the planet and the universe.

Read the book of Thomas, or find a video series explaining it might work better for you, but you need to read it for yourself. Keep in mind, the Book of Thomas was only just recently discovered in the Middle East in the mid 40s on scrolls buried in a cave, and it took years to decipher, so this is in a sense new news for most folks since the church for the most part still ignores it.
#WWG1WGA

Offline alienhand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2019, 08:34:37 AM »
Are you talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Offline Solar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 66945
  • Gender: Male
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2019, 08:45:01 AM »
Are you talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls?
No.
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Gospel-of-Thomas-Scholars-Version.pdf
#WWG1WGA

Offline alienhand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: My issues with God: Is he Complete or Infinite
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2019, 08:49:15 AM »
No.
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Gospel-of-Thomas-Scholars-Version.pdf

alright!  I'll give it a read.

 

Powered by EzPortal