Author Topic: Is the state of Israel true Israel?  (Read 413 times)

Offline milos

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Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« on: July 25, 2017, 04:35:23 AM »
Although for me, as a Christian, Israel and Jerusalem have different meaning, it is obvious that, for a Jew, Israel must be a Jewish theocratic state, and not a secular one. Because, being Jewish is a belief and not ethnicity. Is modern Israel anti-Jewish, and is it destined to be destroyed for its secularism?

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Offline Solar

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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2017, 04:57:09 AM »
According to 23 and Me, Jew is a race apparently and there are DNA markers for it.
But I get your point. Which always begs the question, why do leftist Jews hate Israel?
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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2017, 01:38:19 PM »
Although for me, as a Christian, Israel and Jerusalem have different meaning, it is obvious that, for a Jew, Israel must be a Jewish theocratic state, and not a secular one. Because, being Jewish is a belief and not ethnicity. Is modern Israel anti-Jewish, and is it destined to be destroyed for its secularism?



A few minor points, just minor...
God chose Abram, not Abram chose God.   Abram is also a grand example of great faith and ZERO faith - read Genesis, one moment he was a hero, the next lying about Sarah.

Abraham was called "the friend of God"  Esau & Jacob were the father of two nations, not Abraham, or Issac.  That's simple genealogy, which God actually told Jacob, and later renamed him "Israel", where we got the nation from.  Not a theological thing, it's simple genealogy.

At this dispensation in time, I would *expect* to hear devout Jews lamenting over the lack of faith in "Israel" or by "genetically traceable Jews" - God isn't dealing with Israel or Jews as a "nation" like He did before the Advent of Jesus.  That'll all be reversed immediately following the Rapture of the Church.  In this age, God is calling *individuals*, gentiles, the ones grafted into the olive tree, of which He is the root.

I believe his description of "cutting off" is correct, referring to the incident of Moses descending Mt Sinai, finding those who "Ate and rose up to play" (immorality, idolatry, etc), the earth opened up and they were quite literally "cut off" from the nation of Israel.  I agree with him, and curiously, Jesus also descended to the hell, preached and led captivity captive' - which is commonly thought to be that same group of individuals Moses condemned.   ...however, this is an assumption, neither we, nor he knows with certainty, just speculation - because ALL judgement is given over to Jesus the Messiah, and that has not taken place, yet.

Here is a really sticky area, who is and who is not, BASED ON THEIR WORKS.   From the dispensation before the advent of Jesus Messiah, many have postulated salvation was by keeping the Law.  J. Vernon McGee I believe... and since Pentecost, salvation was entirely by God's Grace, including the faith to believe, Eph 2:8-10.   Two different dispensations, with the life & ministry of Jesus the transition point, ie, Old and New Testament.  really trying not to get too deep 

But, the covenant with Abram, the smoking furnace, was "ratified" by God alone, since Abram could not fulfill it.  Paul mentions that again in Romans 4.  Salvation is by faith, which all Abram could muster was staring up into a starry night, "count the stars, so shall your descendants be.." - Abram believed God could "do it" and God "saved Abram", or "counted as righteous" - sounds pretty lame, well, yeah, it is, but that's how FAR mankind is naturally from God.  Remember, Ephesians 2:8-9 says "faith is a gift from God" - yeah, we're *really* bad, far from God.

Back to Jesus' ministry, and specifically his Mark 2:22 statement, which defines old & new.
Quote
“And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.”
 
The old economy, ways of Israel (at this time) are incompatible with what is coming, the Bride of Christ, or Church.  Sure, there are friends of the Bride, John the Baptizer, but they are not the Church.

The gentleman then discusses the secular state vs "true Judaism" - and forgets Abram was called as a SECULAR out of his own country, and spent DECADES in the promised land before God made him any promises.   I see a really neat similarity, the author missed, that God is calling Israel back as a secular nation, first, before He deals with them as a nation again.  Another problem, implying you better be careful calling "Israel" as "Israel" because it somehow demeans or diminishes the "true Jew" is idolatrous and false... sorry!  Just as the Sabbath was NOT made for God, but for man, we fallen men's natural tendencies are to compare "us" with "them", and become twice as worse.   Even the High Priest (an unbeliever) said, "It is better that one man die, than the whole nation perish" speaking of Jesus' death.   I sense there is a bit of Pharisaical jealousy here, which is in greater danger of prejudging before the outcome is even known & God's plan is being played out.  There IS a plan, a purpose & calling ... the question is, "what are you busy doing?"  No, I'll not become a Jew, because I already found the Jewish Messiah.

The state of Israel is in limbo, (read Daniel)   He is absolutely right about Abram and Israel being a light for God to the nations, which task was TAKEN AWAY from Israel and given to the Christian Church - and when the Church is rapture, will be GIVEN BACK to Israel.  Here's the rub, without the Holy Spirit supporting what you're doing, it's an utter waste of time.  I personally know of a missionary who went to Australia, wasn't there a year, and soon realized - he wasn't suppose to be there, but somewhere else... Kangaroo fever, Koala walla, we call it "out of the will of God".

I'd say to the guy, if you want to be active in God's work, become a Christian Jew.  If he reads this after the rapture of the church, then maybe he's part of the 144,000 evangelists, who knows?   But, those gray areas where you have no judgment other than who you let into a Synagogue...  eeeehhhh, I'd rather just keep my yapper shut, and stick to the original plan, being a light unto the world.  I do like the guy, he's knowledgeable, and seems to have things in context - a rarity in this age.   If he has ever read the New Testament, Hebrews is right up his alley, a wonderful comparison of the "Old" and the "New"... it is time to move on, lest it slip away and you fall back.


To the last question: Is modern Israel anti-Jewish, and is it destined to be destroyed for its secularism?"
It does not matter that the territory of modern Israel is "whatever".   Read and understand the Prophecy of "weeks" - at this stage, Israel is ATHEIST, just as the prophecy says.  There is a great reconciling to God coming, when they will look onto Jesus as an only Son.  Expecting a "revival" or great turning back to God without the Spirit of God ... nope, it has never happened.

Here's a question for you:  Why did the Apostle John, author of a Gospel account, 3 letters and the Revelation - keep referring to himself as the 'one whom Jesus loved?"
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Offline milos

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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 01:41:32 AM »
According to 23 and Me, Jew is a race apparently and there are DNA markers for it.
But I get your point. Which always begs the question, why do leftist Jews hate Israel?

Oh, no, tu quoque, Brute! :scared: :biggrin: I've been struggling over entire Internet to prove Jewish is a religion and not a race, and now you have put me into doubt. You see, we in Orthodox Christianity have our national Churches, with the concept of a nation being a spiritual category, and not an ethnic or racial one. That means, anyone who is accepted and baptized into our national Church becomes a member of our nation, disregarding his/hers racial and ethnic background. I see that Orthodox Jews share exactly the same belief, of Jewish nation being a spiritual and not a racial or ethnic category, and that is why I can fully understand them.

I don't know how can Jewish be a race, when there were so many converts to Judaism over history, and Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews are of completely different origin, and there are obviously both brown and white and black Jews, and Ivanka Trump converted to Judaism, but she didn't change her race. Abraham was of Babylonian origin, and he became the first Jew because he rejected the paganism of Babylon and wanted to believe in true Creator, he became a Jew by his faith, and not by his race. DNA is a lousy evidence, all peoples have mixed DNA with different haplogroups and many branches. Neopagans and neonazis believe in nature and race and DNA, and that religions come from race, that is why they despise Judaism and Christianity, because in their belief those religions are product of Jewish race, which is absurd, because there is no original Jewish race, and Abraham was originally a Babylonian. And in the end as in the beginning, if all mankind descends from one Adam, then it is obvious that race doesn't play any role in our obedience to our Creator.
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Offline milos

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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 01:42:22 AM »
Here's a question for you:  Why did the Apostle John, author of a Gospel account, 3 letters and the Revelation - keep referring to himself as the 'one whom Jesus loved?"

I don't know, lol, because he was Jesus' favorite disciple? Some even claim that he was actually Mary Magdalene.

Ok, so you are saying that the current state of Israel is in limbo, so that is why it is secular right now, and that the Holy Ghost is about to bring the true faith to them.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 01:49:37 AM by milos »
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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 06:23:43 PM »
I don't know, lol, because he was Jesus' favorite disciple? Some even claim that he was actually Mary Magdalene.

Ok, so you are saying that the current state of Israel is in limbo, so that is why it is secular right now, and that the Holy Ghost is about to bring the true faith to them.

He was recognizing his own short-coming, a serious fault of lacking love and forgiveness... which it looks like he battled with until the end.

Mark 3:17
Quote
And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Hmmmmmm...... Jesus didn't call John the one who, "loved all men" - kinda get the impression he might have "issues"

Luke 9:54
Quote
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
And for what should they die?   Samaritans?   ???    Wonder why Jesus used a "Samaritan" in the story of "the good Samaritan" instead of an Egyptian?   Would have been interesting to see the look on James & John's faces.
Luke 9:55
Quote
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
>ouch<   Peter spoke often, and was sort of a leader, but, John & James keep popping up in strange ways.
Mark 10:35 
Quote

35And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
41And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.
Holy Smokes!!!   That's not a servant's heart, is it?   Elevating yourself above leaders such as Peter...?   What a sneaky little....!

None of this appears in John's Gospel, just the one whom "Jesus loved" - humbled, doesn't even mention his own name.  He had quite an interesting 3 years with Jesus, barely mentioned in Acts, sort of a spectator to Peter & James, wrote his Gospel account LATE, and as a changed man - who was wild in his youth.

If Jesus had a favorite disciple, it doesn't show IMO.   He often took Peter (maybe the oldest) and John (presumed to be youngest) for one-on-one things, the next leader of the Jewish/Christian Church, and the one who would become the oldest surviving Apostle. 
The message of the Gospel is what's important.

In the Old Testament, the Holy Ghost/Spirit, came and went as "needed" to empower and validate God's messengers, to lead, judge, direct, etc., but, "He" didn't "reside" with anyone.   In one case, it was a Donkey, speaking to a disobedient prophet.  Israel was suppose to be a great light to the world for God.   (remember satan was also suppose to be a light "lucifier" means light-bearer)   Between prophetic events, there were some long silences, but God was always working through Israel as a nation, using the nation to represent Him (generally speaking).

The prophecy of Daniel's 70 weeks is all about Israel, but there is a curious pause - which most believe is the Church age, then it resumes, detailed description of Jacob's troubles as described in Revelation.   We're in that "pause", but it doesn't at all suggest God isn't bringing Israel as a nation, back to Israel as a country, for that moment when the Believing Church "exits" in the Rapture.
God's attention returns back to Israel, as a last opportunity to receive the Messiah the nation rejected.  Once again, there is Israel empowered, and 144,000 spreading out, preaching the Gospel, Jesus is the Messiah they had been expecting, and He is calling them too!

Yes, Israel is in a sort of "spiritual limbo", the Rabbi gave several examples of faithlessness - believe me, I'm not critical of him, but he also has a choice, to recognize Jesus as his personal Messiah now, and be spared from "Jacob's troubles" - the Tribulation, or get the message the "hard way".   It's tempting to be critical of him, because he KNOWS the OT and is rejecting Jesus the Messiah.

There are so many warnings Jesus gave to Israel, it's only by God's grace they'll get a second chance... truely, that is love beyond my understanding.  Rescuing the nation that tortured & crucified you.


Here's the way to get a good grasp on Scripture, read it over and over and over.   Listen to it read, over and over and over.
The context and understanding is greater than a single word, yanked out of context and given a meaning that has little to do with what's being said.

For instance, you realize Lazarus, Mary and Martha might have been real outcasts among Jews.... more than Matthew.  Jesus, with regularly broke the traditions of the religious authorities.  His favorite was "working" miracles on the sabbath... pissing them off!
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Offline Hoofer

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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2017, 06:59:33 PM »
Here's another "problem", and why I believe Jacob was the first Jew.

If Abram was the first Jew, then so was Isaac, and then so was Esau.

The twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob's renamed by God), didn't appear until Jacob.

Jacob also "crossed over" into Egypt, and came back (in a box).

Abraham was called "the friend of God", but the Jewish nation wasn't named after Abram/Abraham - it was named after Jacob/Israel.
Oh - anyone would say, "Israel was in Abram's loins" ... etc., and Isaac was the son of "promise"... etc.
However, the nation of Israel came via 2 sisters & Jacob.

This is pretty minor stuff... really.   
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Offline milos

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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 01:12:11 AM »
Ok. I don't think it does really matter whether the first Jew was Abraham or Jakob, because they both were on the same course. The question is what is Jewish nation, and what should Israel be.

For example, there are different kinds of nations, a nation can be based upon religion, or upon citizenship, or upon ethnicity, or upon common language, or just upon feeling of belonging to a nation. This Orthodox Jewish rabbi from the video claims that Jewish nation is based upon belief and not upon race, and that therefore the secular Israeli nation has nothing to do with the Jewish nation, and that Jews still live in exile even if they have Israeli citizenship.

I don't know for other Christian denominations, but we in Orthodox Church also believe that our nation in Christian sense is based upon our belief and not upon our race, and that it has nothing to do with our citizenship. Citizenship and race are completely different things and are of no importance to our Christian belief, and so I assume it is and it should be the same in Judaism. And so believing that being Jewish is a race makes no sense. We in Christianity call Abraham our father because he is our religious father, and surely not our biological father, the same way we call our priests - fathers, because of religion of course and not biology. I can only assume it is the same in Judaism, and that they regard Abraham as their religiuos father rather than their biological father. If Jewish was a race, then we the Christians couldn't have based our belief upon the Old Testament, because it would have been a racial matter and not a religious one. And being Christian is not a race but a religion, the same as being Jewish is not a race but a religion.

Believing in biology and race and DNA would actually be a blasphemy and idolatry, because it would mean worshipping the creation instead of worshipping the Creator, and it is a serious sin.
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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 02:31:31 PM »
Well, what really matters then?  And who or what will we eventually give account to?   How should God judge us?  What is the hope of Israel?  Does membership in a church or institution assure us of heaven?   What must one do to be saved?   What makes a true "Jew" or "Christian" or ???   If the word "church" means a called out assembly, what are they call out of, if everyone in Jerusalem belonged to the Synagogue - why call them out?  Why would God send a Messiah, for what?

Do you believe, the Rabbi in the video is assured a place in heaven, without confirming and accepting Jesus is Messiah?
Does God have multiple paths, or plans that lead to heaven?   What are they?   How can I know what is right or wrong?
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Offline Solar

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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 05:16:21 PM »
Well, what really matters then?  And who or what will we eventually give account to?   How should God judge us?  What is the hope of Israel?  Does membership in a church or institution assure us of heaven?   What must one do to be saved?   What makes a true "Jew" or "Christian" or ???   If the word "church" means a called out assembly, what are they call out of, if everyone in Jerusalem belonged to the Synagogue - why call them out?  Why would God send a Messiah, for what?

Do you believe, the Rabbi in the video is assured a place in heaven, without confirming and accepting Jesus is Messiah?
Does God have multiple paths, or plans that lead to heaven?   What are they?   How can I know what is right or wrong?
Or my favorite, 'Priest', God Intermediary? :rolleyes:
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Offline milos

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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2017, 01:11:30 AM »
Well, again, from my Orthodox Christian point of view, although I am not an educated scholar, but just an average believer. I must be aware that there could probably be some different views from different Christian denominations, and I can speak only in my name, and not in the name of all Christians. From what I can see, Protestants, for example, emphasize studying and understanding of the Bible as crucial to their belief, while Orthodox Christians emphasize religious experience more; during our Sunday Liturgy, parts of the Bible are being read, and then a priest prieches about them, but it is just a small part, and most of our service is dedicated to saying prayers over and over and over, it is an hour and a half of constant and persistent prayers.

The point of Christian belief is renouncing of Adam's original sin, and establishing the obedience to our Creator once again. Jesus is new Adam, new Perfect Man, he needed to die on the cross for the original sin of the first Adam, like mankind deserved to die for the original sin, but God decided to spare us and give us another chance, that is why He resurrected Jesus, so that the people who decide to believe in Jesus have the hope of resurrecting. When we are baptized, we renounce the original sin, and we spit on Satan (literally, during the ceremony of baptism, we spit on Satan three times), choosing God instead. At the moment of baptism, all our previous sins are forgiven, and we are a new born man. But, because of imperfect and sinful nature of man, we are commiting sins through our life again, and so we need to repent and confess our sins over and over, in order to get rid of them and not commit them again, and also to take Eucharistia, so to become more like Jesus. Every time we confess, we confirm our baptism, and we are forgiven all our sins once again. But we must sincerely repent, and also sincerely forgive all other people their sins, because God will forgive us only if we forgive others. This doesn't assure us of being in Heaven one day, but it is the only path, and God, our Creator, is the only one who is the judge.

Judaism is a true belief, but for Christians, it is a fulfilled homework from yesterday - the Old Testament with God; and for today, we have a new homework - the New Testament with God. But Jews believe that the first Testament with God is still active, and that there is no new one. I can't judge, maybe they are also ok, but from Christian perspective, Christians are new Israel - new God's light to the World, and true Israel now has nothing to do with the modern Jews of today or with the state of Israel, they are kind of stuck in past. For Christians, Jerusalem is not a particular city on Earth, but there is Heavenly Jerusalem, which shall descend from Heavens to Earth once the God's Kingdom on Earth is established again. So I can't understand why are some Christians so obsessed with the state of Israel in religious sense. Ok, let Jews have their national state, but that's all about it.

Priests are not God's intermediaries, nor they are given more power, all believers are equal before God, priests just have their roles and obligations in the life of the Church to lead the service to God and to teach about the true faith, and the greatest in the Church rank must be the greatest servant to the Church and to the believers. But believers are addressing their prayers directly to God, they are confessing their sins directly to God, priests are there just to help them and guide them how to do it properly. When there is no priest around, an ordinary believer can also lead the service, or even baptize a non-believer if there is an urgent need, for example if someone is dying and wants to be baptized before his death but there is no priest available.
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Re: Is the state of Israel true Israel?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2017, 07:03:54 AM »
Milos

You don't have to be an educated "scholar" - I am definitely not, and trust me on this one, *most* of the priests and pastors I've known are just ordinary men/women, who barely made it through Seminary/Bible School, and strain over gnats (intense study of a single word, while missing the phrase & context).   Read, read, and read the Bible over and over again, ask God to help you understand it - it's only got One Author.

You should read the book of Hebrews.  It is a wonderful introduction and warning to religious people who, unknowingly are stuck between the old and new testament.   There's a good reason why Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox and get together for a "Mass" like worship/commemoration service - the foundation is the same (actual words vary).

Most, and I mean MOST church services are social gatherings, having little to do with real life changing events - just witness the frustration as they clammer out of the parking lot to make it home on time, for the football game on TV.   LOL   Many churches use "games" and festival events to raise extra cash, or have events to open their doors & encourage outsiders to visit.   In effect, the leader, Priest, Pastor, Bishop, Elder (whatever), is the "hired gun".
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

 

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