Conservative Political Forum

General Category => Religion Forum => Topic started by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:44:42 PM

Title: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:44:42 PM
...from a Christian point of view, before Creation, was God "holy"?
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 12, 2013, 02:32:14 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:44:42 PM
...from a Christian point of view, before Creation, was God "holy"?

I would say yes LOL  If he was always God Before and will be after time.  Someone had to keep the angels in check.  Is satan God alter ego?
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 02:32:37 PM
But what does "holy" mean?
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 12, 2013, 02:49:48 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 02:32:37 PM
But what does "holy" mean?

What ever you would like it to mean.


Man made time.   In Gods time, there was no night or day.  Or why (English translation) did he say let there be light?
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 02:54:58 PM
Quote from: walkstall on January 12, 2013, 02:49:48 PM
What ever you would like it to mean.

I can make it mean "Cuban cigar"?  God is a Cuban cigar?
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:04:12 PM
Quote from: walkstall on January 12, 2013, 02:49:48 PM
What ever you would like it to mean.


Man made time.   In Gods time, there was no night or day.  Or why (English translation) did he say let there be light?

He was speaking of light over the face of the earth. He said, befoire this, darkness covered the face of the earth Smoke and clouds covert the earth--enough that it wasw constantly dark.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 03:14:00 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:04:12 PM
He was speaking of light over the face of the earth. He said, befoire this, darkness covered the face of the earth Smoke and clouds covert the earth--enough that it wasw constantly dark.

If you read Genesis 1 literally, there was no "face of the earth."  God created light before he separated the waters, dividing it by "the firmament" and before the lower waters separated to form dry land.  The darkness was "over the surface of the deep," not over the "face of the earth."
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:19:09 PM
The earth as a PLANET. Yes it was water covered.

THE POINT IS, God did NOT create light in this verse. He was exposing the surface of the earth to light.

You seem to argue just to argue rather than come to the truth.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 12, 2013, 03:20:57 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 02:54:58 PM
I can make it mean "Cuban cigar"?  God is a Cuban cigar?

IF you like.  God only ask me to believe in him.  If there is no beginning or no end for God.  Then time was make for man by man, in doing so it has changed more than once even in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 03:30:32 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:19:09 PM
The earth as a PLANET. Yes it was water covered.

THE POINT IS, God did NOT create light in this verse. He was exposing the surface of the earth to light.

You seem to argue just to argue rather than come to the truth.

When God said, "Let there be light," there was light.  So you're saying that God did not "create light" at this point; that he was exposing an existing earth to light.

Guess what?  That's a possible interpretation.

It's certainly not the only one.  The Bible does not say what you say it does.  You are adding to it to clarify your interpretation.

Just want to clear that up...

Do you have a suggestion for the original question?  Do you have a possible definition for what "holiness" is or means?
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 03:44:17 PM
Quote from: walkstall on January 12, 2013, 03:20:57 PM
IF you like.  God only ask me to believe in him.  If there is no beginning or no end for God.  Then time was make for man by man, in doing so it has changed more than once even in my lifetime.

See, I think "holy" actually means something significant, especially since God uses the word to describe himself.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 12, 2013, 04:02:30 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 03:44:17 PM
See, I think "holy" actually means something significant, especially since God uses the word to describe himself.

Very welll could be.  I think it was a way for God to communicating with man to describe himself.   Same as "I am Alpha and Omega", the beginning and the end.  I don't think man was able to communicate with God at his level.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: marv on January 13, 2013, 11:56:31 AM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 03:14:00 PM
If you read Genesis 1 literally, there was no "face of the earth."  God created light before he separated the waters, dividing it by "the firmament" and before the lower waters separated to form dry land.  The darkness was "over the surface of the deep," not over the "face of the earth."

Did this also include Mars or Venus, or any other planet even in any other stellar system?

Just asking.......
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 01:23:35 PM
Words, (all words), including the word "Holy", are for our benefit; not for God's.

Words are necessary to help us to comprehend something that we are incapable of comprehending.

So no. In my opinion, God was not Holy before the creation of man.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 01:48:53 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 01:23:35 PM
Words, (all words), including the word "Holy", are for our benefit; not for God's.

Words are necessary to help us to comprehend something that we are incapable of comprehending.

So no. In my opinion, God was not Holy before the creation of man.

So God did not have to tell the angels in heaven he was number one.   It was just for the creation of man that God became Holy.   
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 01:48:53 PM
So God did not have to tell the angels in heaven he was number one.   It was just for the creation of man that God became Holy.

As far as I know, God always was, and always will be. There's lots of stuff I don't know. Anything I say about things like this, is pure speculation. I reserve the right to be wrong. :smile:
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 02:58:33 PM
Quote from: marv on January 13, 2013, 11:56:31 AM
Did this also include Mars or Venus, or any other planet even in any other stellar system?

Just asking.......

Wellllll...I started the sentence with..."If you read Genesis 1 literally...," which it appeared the poster to whom I was responding was doing.  If you read it literally, then it doesn't account for other planets at all (which doesn't necessarily imply that God didn't create other planets).
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 03:00:38 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 01:23:35 PM
Words, (all words), including the word "Holy", are for our benefit; not for God's.

Words are necessary to help us to comprehend something that we are incapable of comprehending.

So no. In my opinion, God was not Holy before the creation of man.

Interesting...because you got to the heart of the question.  "Holy" means "separate" or "distinct."  Many Christians would say that "holy" is little more specific--"separate from evil or sin."

Before Creation, sin does not exist.  So how can God be defined as "separate" from it?  Even in the general sense, if "holy" means "distinct," then...before Creation, distinct from what?
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 03:00:38 PM
Interesting...because you got to the heart of the question.  "Holy" means "separate" or "distinct."  Many Christians would say that "holy" is little more specific--"separate from evil or sin."

Before Creation, sin does not exist.  So how can God be defined as "separate" from it?  Even in the general sense, if "holy" means "distinct," then...before Creation, distinct from what?

Sin does not exist before creation...........as we know it.

In order to even begin to scratch the surface of what God is, we must personify Him. Even the word "Him" is a misnomer. It designates God as a human male; which we all know is false.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 03:29:11 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 02:13:11 PM
As far as I know, God always was, and always will be. There's lots of stuff I don't know. Anything I say about things like this, is pure speculation. I reserve the right to be wrong.  :smile:

:lol:  Don't we all. 
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 03:18:35 PM
Sin does not exist before creation...........as we know it.

In order to even begin to scratch the surface of what God is, we must personify Him. Even the word "Him" is a misnomer. It designates God as a human male; which we all know is false.

Actually, it doesn't.  For arguments' sake, there are animals that are male that we call "him."  Also, most other languages have feminine and masculine nouns that are irrelevant to sexuality.  But in the Bible, God primarily reveals himself as "Father"--the "other" parent that loves.  We are naturally connected to our mothers; our father is the "other" parent that loves.  But besides his primary revelation as Father, he also communicates feminine qualities as well.  But you're right; God is not a human male.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 03:00:38 PM
Interesting...because you got to the heart of the question.  "Holy" means "separate" or "distinct."  Many Christians would say that "holy" is little more specific--"separate from evil or sin."

Before Creation, sin does not exist.   So how can God be defined as "separate" from it?  Even in the general sense, if "holy" means "distinct," then...before Creation, distinct from what?

So Lucifer, or what every you would like to call him/it did not exist.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 03:45:48 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 03:38:18 PM
Actually, it doesn't.  For arguments' sake, there are animals that are male that we call "him."  Also, most other languages have feminine and masculine nouns that are irrelevant to sexuality.  But in the Bible, God primarily reveals himself as "Father"--the "other" parent that loves.  We are naturally connected to our mothers; our father is the "other" parent that loves.  But besides his primary revelation as Father, he also communicates feminine qualities as well.  But you're right; God is not a human male.

The Bible had to be put into a context that we could understand. And yet, the Bible is not perfect..........or at least our interpretation isn't perfect. A lot of blood has been spilled over biblical interpretation.

Even as we speak, Yawn is spinning his little brain into knots. :smile:
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 04:19:20 PM
Quote from: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 03:42:15 PM
So Lucifer, or what every you would like to call him/it did not exist.

The Accuser (lit., "the satan") exists.  Exactly in what form?  I don't know.  Did he "invent sin" before Creation?  Possibly.  Guesswork.  "Lucifer," however, is a mistranslation.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 04:25:57 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 04:19:20 PM
The Accuser (lit., "the satan") exists.  Exactly in what form?  I don't know.  Did he "invent sin" before Creation?  Possibly.  Guesswork.  "Lucifer," however, is a mistranslation.

I know it sounds cliche, but I like the "Star Wars" analogy to good vs evil, God vs satan.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 04:27:49 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 04:25:57 PM
I know it sounds cliche, but I like the "Star Wars" analogy to good vs evil, God vs satan.

The problem with that is that it is dualist.  (The) satan is not God's equal.  Neither are the two different sides of the same coin (like the "light side" and the "dark side" of the Force).
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 04:40:44 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 04:27:49 PM
The problem with that is that it is dualist.  (The) satan is not God's equal.  Neither are the two different sides of the same coin (like the "light side" and the "dark side" of the Force).

It's certainly not a perfect analogy.

Nor would I ever pretend to understand it all. satan is not God's equal, and yet God allows evil to exist.

Without the existence of evil; good would have no meaning. The Star Wars thing is an over simplification, but human nature itself is dualistic; both sides reside in us. Choices are constantly being made. Making the right ones is where it sometimes gets difficult.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 05:16:28 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 04:40:44 PM
It's certainly not a perfect analogy.

Nor would I ever pretend to understand it all. satan is not God's equal, and yet God allows evil to exist.

Without the existence of evil; good would have no meaning. The Star Wars thing is an over simplification, but human nature itself is dualistic; both sides reside in us. Choices are constantly being made. Making the right ones is where it sometimes gets difficult.

...and I still like Star Wars. :cool:
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 05:20:49 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 05:16:28 PM
...and I still like Star Wars. :cool:

Me too. As well as the moral lessons from the original Star Trek...............despite Captain Kirk's wandering eye. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 06:32:01 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 04:19:20 PM
The Accuser (lit., "the satan") exists.  Exactly in what form?  I don't know.  Did he "invent sin" before Creation?  Possibly.  Guesswork.  "Lucifer," however, is a mistranslation.

Hmm....My understand, there are more names for Satan in the Bible than for anyone else except Jesus.  There are over 40 names for him/it in the New King James Version of the Bible.  I am sure there more as we find more data. 

i am sure there more then one way into the kingdom of God.  But that's just my way of thinking. 
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: RV on December 28, 2020, 07:50:07 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 02:32:37 PM
But what does "holy" mean?

The word as it is used in scripture referring to God means that He is set aside, righteous, sinless, perfect, spotless and without blemish. The word as it is used in scripture to refer to believers means that the believer is set aside and blameless. Hell is reserved for the devil, his demons and those who have rejected Jesus. Heaven is reserved for the angels (God's servants) and those who have accepted Jesus.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: RV on January 09, 2021, 12:33:56 PM
Quote from: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 06:32:01 PM
Hmm....My understand, there are more names for Satan in the Bible than for anyone else except Jesus.  There are over 40 names for him/it in the New King James Version of the Bible.  I am sure there more as we find more data. 

i am sure there more then one way into the kingdom of God.  But that's just my way of thinking.

So, apparently you believe the Bible is no more valid than the phonebook? Jesus Himself said that HE was the way, the truth and the life and that NO MAN could come to the Father, (God), except through Him. This would completely nullify and go against your theory that there is more than one way into the kingdom of God. That is unless you don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God or that He was somehow a liar...
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: Solar on January 09, 2021, 12:46:18 PM
Quote from: RV on January 09, 2021, 12:33:56 PM
So, apparently you believe the Bible is no more valid than the phonebook? Jesus Himself said that HE was the way, the truth and the life and that NO MAN could come to the Father, (God), except through Him. This would completely nullify and go against your theory that there is more than one way into the kingdom of God. That is unless you don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God or that He was somehow a liar...
That's not what he said! Like Walks, the belief in God is sufficient for his blessing. I know, I talk to God all day long and his wisdom is beyond amazing.
Because of God, I've truly led a blessed life and all my accomplishments is because of Gods will.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: RV on January 09, 2021, 02:26:55 PM
Quote from: Solar on January 09, 2021, 12:46:18 PM
That's not what he said! Like Walks, the belief in God is sufficient for his blessing. I know, I talk to God all day long and his wisdom is beyond amazing.
Because of God, I've truly led a blessed life and all my accomplishments is because of Gods will.

The devil and his demons "believe in God", are they receiving God's blessings too?
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: Solar on January 09, 2021, 02:48:25 PM
Quote from: RV on January 09, 2021, 02:26:55 PM
The devil and his demons "believe in God", are they receiving God's blessings too?
So it's OK to disparage others beliefs, but Christianity is off the table? Not very Christian of you!
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: RV on January 10, 2021, 09:18:02 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 09, 2021, 02:48:25 PM
So it's OK to disparage others beliefs, but Christianity is off the table? Not very Christian of you!

I haven't "disparaged" anyone but, there is truth based on God's word and then there are "beliefs". Christians are light in the darkness regardless what the enemy may falsely accuse us of. You are correct he DIDN'T exactly say that the Bible was as valid as the telephone book however, claiming that all paths lead to God is contrary and exactly opposite of what the Bible says. In essence, he was saying that the Bible is invalid. This is the same argument that Democrats and liberals try to claim about the Constitution.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: Solar on January 10, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Quote from: RV on January 10, 2021, 09:18:02 AM
I haven't "disparaged" anyone but, there is truth based on God's word and then there are "beliefs". Christians are light in the darkness regardless what the enemy may falsely accuse us of. You are correct he DIDN'T exactly say that the Bible was as valid as the telephone book however, claiming that all paths lead to God is contrary and exactly opposite of what the Bible says. In essence, he was saying that the Bible is invalid. This is the same argument that Democrats and liberals try to claim about the Constitution.
Yes you did! Go back and read it again!
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: RV on January 10, 2021, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 10, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Yes you did! Go back and read it again!

You and I will have to agree to disagree, I read my comments again and I cannot see anywhere that I "disparaged" anyone. I have to be truthful with everyone and I cannot lie to them to make them feel good. I quoted the Bible, if that is what you believe is "disparaging" then as I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I have an obligation and a duty to tell everyone the truth, not what they want to hear. I believe that truth IS uplifting rather than "disparaging".
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: Solar on January 10, 2021, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: RV on January 10, 2021, 11:32:20 AM
You and I will have to agree to disagree, I read my comments again and I cannot see anywhere that I "disparaged" anyone. I have to be truthful with everyone and I cannot lie to them to make them feel good. I quoted the Bible, if that is what you believe is "disparaging" then as I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I have an obligation and a duty to tell everyone the truth, not what they want to hear. I believe that truth IS uplifting rather than "disparaging".
I won't play this stupid game with you!
You pulled up a 7 year old thread for the sole purpose of insulting my Admins faith: "So, apparently you believe the Bible is no more valid than the phonebook?"
Talk about fuckin insulting!
It was extremely uncalled for, that was a disparaging comment, one I won't let go! Look up the word disparaging and tell me it doesn't fit!
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: RV on January 10, 2021, 12:48:04 PM
Quote from: Solar on January 10, 2021, 12:33:21 PM
I won't play this stupid game with you!
You pulled up a 7 year old thread for the sole purpose of insulting my Admins faith: "So, apparently you believe the Bible is no more valid than the phonebook?"
Talk about fuckin insulting!
It was extremely uncalled for, that was a disparaging comment, one I won't let go! Look up the word disparaging and tell me it doesn't fit!

I don't consider eternity a "game". I also don't consider that notifying someone that their "belief" is contrary to scripture as an "insult". I also do not think that lying to someone is a "loving" thing to do. I did NOT call him any names, did NOT attack his mental IQ nor did I say anything negative about his denomination. As I said before and will say again, we agree to disagree.

You however DID attack my Christianity. You DID make a comment that only God Himself knows and only He can judge. You DID "disparage" me. So, regardless of what YOU may say, think, feel or do, unlike you, I made NO "disparaging comment" to anyone.
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: Solar on January 10, 2021, 01:03:42 PM
Quote from: RV on January 10, 2021, 12:48:04 PM
I don't consider eternity a "game". I also don't consider that notifying someone that their "belief" is contrary to scripture as an "insult". I also do not think that lying to someone is a "loving" thing to do. I did NOT call him any names, did NOT attack his mental IQ nor did I say anything negative about his denomination. As I said before and will say again, we agree to disagree.

You however DID attack my Christianity. You DID make a comment that only God Himself knows and only He can judge. You DID "disparage" me. So, regardless of what YOU may say, think, feel or do, unlike you, I made NO "disparaging comment" to anyone.
Deal with it ass hole! You went out of your way to start an argument on this forum with my Admin, a ban-able offense!
No one gives a fuck about your "Feelings", so don't try and turn this shit back on me, this is all your doing!
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 10, 2021, 01:56:08 PM
Quote from: RV on January 10, 2021, 11:32:20 AM
You and I will have to agree to disagree, I read my comments again and I cannot see anywhere that I "disparaged" anyone. I have to be truthful with everyone and I cannot lie to them to make them feel good. I quoted the Bible, if that is what you believe is "disparaging" then as I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I have an obligation and a duty to tell everyone the truth, not what they want to hear. I believe that truth IS uplifting rather than "disparaging".


I love the saying You can be so godly as a person that your no dam earthly good.

Do NOT put words into my mouth.  Out of your own mouth God will judge you as you judge others.  EOM
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: RV on January 10, 2021, 03:24:55 PM
Quote from: walkstall on January 10, 2021, 01:56:08 PM

I love the saying You can be so godly as a person that your no dam earthly good.

Do NOT put words into my mouth.  Out of your own mouth God will judge you as you judge others.  EOM

Can you direct me to where that specific passage is, I couldn't find it?
Title: Re: Interesting question...
Post by: walkstall on January 10, 2021, 04:57:44 PM
Quote from: RV on January 10, 2021, 03:24:55 PM
Can you direct me to where that specific passage is, I couldn't find it?

LOL Like I said don't put words in my mouth.  Now when did I say it was a passage, all I said was I love the saying.  You will have to look into your own heart not the good book.  One does not need to see to know God is in our lives.  I should have been dead more then three times in my lifetime, but God keeps me around for some reason.  Like Solar, God talks to me in his own time and way.  Sometime it take me day or even years to understand.