If God exists, why are the faithful so along demographic liines?

Started by Sci Fi Fan, May 04, 2013, 09:12:25 AM

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Sci Fi Fan

Quote from: MFA on November 19, 2013, 05:16:28 PM
No, according to your rubber definition of the word "covet."

I don't have the original hebrew word that has since been translated into "covet" in some versions of the text, but merriam-webster's definition is "to want (something that you do not have) very much".  How is this a sin?  How is it remotely plausible to criminalize such a vague and ubiquitous human desire?  As usual God doesn't want us to know or want anything beyond what he directly gives and tell us to do (although why he'd give our brains the chemistry to automatically feel such emotions is beyond me).  It's there with the fruit of knowledge.  It's there with the Tower of Babel.  It's here with the 10th commandment.

MFA

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 19, 2013, 05:55:41 PM
I don't have the original hebrew word that has since been translated into "covet" in some versions of the text, but merriam-webster's definition is "to want (something that you do not have) very much".  How is this a sin?  How is it remotely plausible to criminalize such a vague and ubiquitous human desire?  As usual God doesn't want us to know or want anything beyond what he directly gives and tell us to do (although why he'd give our brains the chemistry to automatically feel such emotions is beyond me).  It's there with the fruit of knowledge.  It's there with the Tower of Babel.  It's here with the 10th commandment.

"To want (something that you do not have) very much."  That's it?  Seems a little simplistic.  Other definitions include the clarifier "inordinately" or "inappropriately."

Is that okay?  To want something "too much"?  Is that possible?  If it's possible, would it be wrong?

kopema

Quote from: MFA on November 19, 2013, 05:16:28 PM
No, according to your rubber definition of the word "covet."

LiberalSpeak is a harsh mistress. 

Of course wanting a better life for yourself and your family is a perfectly wonderful thing, which has nothing whatsoever to do with even so much as greed, let alone covetousness.  And, equally as obviously, helping your fellow man by running your own business and managing your own property is as far away from any of that as it's possible to get.

There is a REASON the Bible repeats the admonition against what is now perversely referred to as "liberalism" (depending on the translation) five to seven times in the otherwise phenomenally concise Ten Commandments.  If an asshole cuts you off in traffic, it's not a sin to idly wish that guy might "accidentally" get punched in the throat.  It's only a sin to actually DO something about that perfectly natural and healthy impulse.

But covetousness is something else entirely.  In order to covet, you must not only want something someone else has -- you must also want them to not have it

Ergo, collectivism is inextricably linked to spite.  Of course it's not money that is the root of all evil.  It is the love of money; and infinitely more precisely the lust for OTHER PEOPLE'S money that is the root of all evil.  And in that regard it's not completely insignificant to note that liberalism consists of only two driving motivations:

1) covetousness; and

2) absolutely nothing else.

The latter element of pathological narcissism - utter spiritual, emotional and intellectual vacuousness - isn't by any stretch of the imagination a "good" thing; but the former is infinitely worse.
''It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.''

- Justice Robert H. Jackson

Sci Fi Fan

MFA I'd like some dictionary quotes.

Quote from: kopema on November 19, 2013, 06:25:07 PM
Of course wanting a better life for yourself and your family is a perfectly wonderful thing, which has nothing whatsoever to do with even so much as greed, let alone covetousness.  And, equally as obviously, helping your fellow man by running your own business and managing your own property is as far away from any of that as it's possible to get.

The 10th commandment does not make such a distinction.

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There is a REASON the Bible repeats the admonition against what is now perversely referred to as "liberalism" (depending on the translation) five to seven times in the otherwise phenomenally concise Ten Commandments.  If an asshole cuts you off in traffic, it's not a sin to idly wish that guy might "accidentally" get punched in the throat.  It's only a sin to actually DO something about that perfectly natural and healthy impulse.

The 10th commandment penalizes thought crimes.  And I don't think it's very damning that liberalism is not endorsed in the Old Testament, the same book with passages like this:

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

and this:

"A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)"

not to mention this:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)"

oh, no list would be complete without:

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

wtf... :huh:

And I'm actually choosing some of the tamer ones! 

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But covetousness is something else entirely.  In order to covet, you must not only want something someone else has -- you must also want them to not have it

On what dictionary definition?

And yes, if you want someone's money, their not having it is a logical necessity.   :rolleyes:

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Ergo, collectivism is inextricably linked to spite.  Of course it's not money that is the root of all evil.  It is the love of money; and infinitely more precisely the lust for OTHER PEOPLE'S money that is the root of all evil.  And in that regard it's not completely insignificant to note that liberalism consists of only two driving motivations:

1) covetousness; and

2) absolutely nothing else.

The latter element of pathological narcissism - utter spiritual, emotional and intellectual vacuousness - isn't by any stretch of the imagination a "good" thing; but the former is infinitely worse.

Are you aware that progressive liberal morals are the reason why you have a concept of democracy and equal rights at all?  Hint: they're nowhere in the Old Testament.  Maybe Jesus slightly alludes to them in the NT.  And if you were to go back in time and claim to a group of democracy/republic activists in the 19th century that they were conservatives, they'd laugh you out of the country.

MFA

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 19, 2013, 08:57:35 PM
MFA I'd like some dictionary quotes.

"...to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others: to covet another's property."

First one that came up on dictionary.com.

"...to have an inordinate or wrongful desire."

Third that came up on dictionary.com.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/covet?s=t


kopema

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 19, 2013, 08:57:35 PM
Are you aware that progressive liberal morals are the reason why you have a concept of democracy and equal rights at all?  Hint: they're nowhere in the Old Testament.  Maybe Jesus slightly alludes to them in the NT.  And if you were to go back in time and claim to a group of democracy/republic activists in the 19th century that they were conservatives, they'd laugh you out of the country.

And if you told them that you're "gay," they'd invite you out to the bar for drinking and dancing!

After that though, I'm afraid your inability to understand the concept of LiberalSpeak redefinition timelines might take a bit of an ugly turn....
''It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.''

- Justice Robert H. Jackson

Sci Fi Fan

Quote from: kopema on November 20, 2013, 10:35:32 AM
And if you told them that you're "gay," they'd invite you out to the bar for drinking and dancing!

After that though, I'm afraid your inability to understand the concept of LiberalSpeak redefinition timelines might take a bit of an ugly turn....

Well, if you have historical evidence that the constitutional democratic/republican advocates in the 19th century, despite consistently labeling themselves liberals and being labeled by the right as radical liberals, were actually conservatives, and that the monarchists that labeled themselves conservatives were actually liberal, feel free to provide it. 

Do you know where the terms "Left" and "Right" came to be used in a political context?  When France's National Assembly met, advocates of the democratization of France sat on the left while royalists sat on the right.  But of course I'm the revisionist here.

kevmo

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on May 04, 2013, 09:12:25 AM
How is this fair ...
This is a question of whether God is fair or not.  Here's an illustration of how fair God is:  the woman caught in adultery.  Jesus said, "let him who has not sinned cast the first stone".  And basically, everyone who was so judgemental earlier, dropped their rocks and went home.  Then Jesus said, "they do not condemn you, so neither do I". 

Was that fair?  HECK yes.  It was MORE than fair.  Or... does it somehow sound unfair to you?   It is an illustration of how fair God will be when the time comes to consider a person's life actions and whether they will be in heaven.   And yes, there was a person "who had not sinned" there, but He chose not to throw that first stone.  God has all the time in the world to get to the bottom of a person's motivations.   As far as I can tell, the people who go to hell don't want anything to do with God, and choose hell.

Hell is basically a place set aside where God agrees not to go there, no matter what.  Because those people don't want anything to do with God.  That leads to another illustration.  Let's say you had kids that didn't want anything to do with you.  They wanted their own space, away from you.  So you set up a room where they can live, you'll never go into it  no matter how messy it is, even if you hear screaming and smoke coming through the doors.  Because they wanted it that way.  That's just a glimpse of hell. 

God will be fair.  The irony of even asking such a question is that it is an acknowledgement that the situation does not apply to you.  You already know enough about God to know there will be consequences to your actions in this life.  You can't claim you haven't heard about Him. 


Sci Fi Fan

I thought I had given up on this board, but some newbie (not the poster below) decided to send me a completely random PM calling me a freedom-hating liberal (no!!!).   :rolleyes:  I guess I could take a moment to respond to some of what I missed, even if the poster here is unable to reply:

Quote from: kevmo on March 21, 2014, 09:44:54 AM
This is a question of whether God is fair or not.  Here's an illustration of how fair God is:  the woman caught in adultery.  Jesus said, "let him who has not sinned cast the first stone".  And basically, everyone who was so judgemental earlier, dropped their rocks and went home.  Then Jesus said, "they do not condemn you, so neither do I". 

"everyone who was so judgmental earlier" - you ignore the part where they were so judgmental because God explicitly orders them to be judgmental.  It's God who orders that girls who aren't virgins when they marry be stoned to death, this being one of his tamer mandates. 

So, essentially Jesus comes along and criticizes the policies of the omniscient God, who, of course, is actually the same thing as Jesus, who, of course, explicitly denied that he was going to change any of the OT's laws.  This maelstrom of self-contradiction and moral depravity is perfectly explained by the theory that the Bible is a collection of stories written by primitive men.  Assume that it must be divinely ordained, and you crack your brain open from the mental gymnastics.

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Was that fair?  HECK yes.  It was MORE than fair.  Or... does it somehow sound unfair to you?

Ordering that raped women who don't scream loudly enough be stoned to death doesn't sound very fair to me, nor does ordering the murdering of the babies of defeated tribes.

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As far as I can tell, the people who go to hell don't want anything to do with God, and choose hell.

Bullshit.  People who Christian mythology claims go to hell don't believe that God is real; that's an intellectual position, not a moral one, and certainly not one that suggests a desire to suffer unbearable agony for all eternity.

QuoteLet's say you had kids that didn't want anything to do with you.  They wanted their own space, away from you.  So you set up a room where they can live, you'll never go into it  no matter how messy it is, even if you hear screaming and smoke coming through the doors.  Because they wanted it that way.  That's just a glimpse of hell. 

First of all, any parent who seriously did that would be a pretty shitty parent, even though we make no standards or claims to omniscience for them.  Secondly, your analogy is irrelevant because those children cannot possibly doubt the existence of their parents.

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God will be fair.  The irony of even asking such a question is that it is an acknowledgement that the situation does not apply to you.  You already know enough about God to know there will be consequences to your actions in this life.  You can't claim you haven't heard about Him.

And you seriously think that eternal torture is a proportional punishment for not getting yourself baptized and fellating an invisible deity on a weekly basis?  Why do we even have the 8th amendment, if the concept of "cruel and unusual" doesn't even apply to a perfect benevolent, omnipotent, wise-white-man-in-the-sky?

carlb

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on May 04, 2013, 09:12:25 AM
I direct this specifically at those who believe that non-believers will burn in hell, and that this is just.

This seems to imply that belief in God is an ethical and rational part of the selection process of who should get into Heaven.

How is this fair, when you account for the fact that the religious affiliation of your household is the single greatest predictor of your religious faith?

TRUE Christians (not CULTURAL Christians) are specifically CALLED and CHOSEN by God. Of course, you're free to reject Him and many do. But because someone grew up in a Christian household, and he/she even call themselves "Christian", that doesn't make it so.  The BIBLICAL definition of a Christian is "one in whom the Spirit of God dwells. There really aren't that many Christians in these Last Days (When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?).

SVPete

QuoteThis seems to imply that belief in God is an ethical and rational part of the selection process of who should get into Heaven.

How is this fair, when you account for the fact that the religious affiliation of your household is the single greatest predictor of your religious faith?

Questions answered millennia ago:

QuoteThe heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

Quote... because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks

Trying to blame God for people's refusal to recognize and pursue what God made clear is silly.
SVPete

Envy is Greed's bigger, more evil, twin.

Those who can, do.
Those who know, teach.
Ignorant incapables, regulate.

Sci Fi Fan

Quote from: SVPete on August 03, 2014, 08:57:34 AM
Questions answered millennia ago:

Trying to blame God for people's refusal to recognize and pursue what God made clear is silly.

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The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

The prose is passable but the logic is shitty - I could substitute "Zeus", "Allah", "the invisible flying pink unicorn", or more accurately, "quantum mechanics and general relativity", and the argument makes just as much sense.

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... because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks

If the existence of a specific religion's God were self evident from creation (as if that were not the textbook definition of the "god of the gaps"), we wouldn't need missionaries.  But isn't it such a coincidence that nobody in Africa ever heard of Jesus before Europeans arrived?  Such a divine gospel is only spread through very human, very mechanistic, very imperfect means.

Sci Fi Fan

Quote from: carlb on August 02, 2014, 02:54:11 PM
TRUE Christians (not CULTURAL Christians) are specifically CALLED and CHOSEN by God. Of course, you're free to reject Him and many do. But because someone grew up in a Christian household, and he/she even call themselves "Christian", that doesn't make it so.  The BIBLICAL definition of a Christian is "one in whom the Spirit of God dwells. There really aren't that many Christians in these Last Days (When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?).

You see, the funny part here is that your post doesn't even come close to addressing anything that it quoted.