Conservative Political Forum

General Category => Religion Forum => Topic started by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 06:42:59 PM

Title: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 06:42:59 PM
In the Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday....
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her! —Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.

In Catholic Christian Instructed,

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath. —Rt. Rev. Dr. Challoner, p. 211.

In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine,

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power. –Rev. Henry Tuberville, D.D. (R.C.), (1833), page 58.

In A Doctrinal Catechism,


Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. –Rev. Stephen Keenan, (1851), p. 174.

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent,

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday! –p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937.  (First published in 1566)

In the Augsburg Confession,

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments. —Art. 28.

God warned that a blasphemous power would "seek to change times and laws," and the Catholic Church openly admits doing it, even boasts about it. In a sermon at the Council of Trent in 1562, the Archbishop of Reggia, Caspar del Fossa, claimed that the Catholic Church's whole authority is based upon the fact that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Does this not fulfill the prophecies of Daniel and Paul? Source (http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resources/article-library/articletype/articleview/articleid/916/pageid/1098/catholic-church-admits-they-made-the-change.aspx)
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: MFA on January 12, 2013, 06:55:37 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 06:42:59 PM
In the Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday....

And...it had never happened before that...?

By the same argument, the Roman Catholic Church "chose which books to be in the Bible."  Is that the book that you use?  The ones that the Roman Catholic Church decided were scripture?

QuoteQ. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Misleading.  Because you're attacking the Roman Catholic Church, but the answer to your question says the Church, which, essentially, is true.  Unless, of course, you equate "the Church" with "the Roman Catholic Church."  But you don't, do you?

QuoteQ. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her! —Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.

Yeah, I'm not so sure it's as simple as that.  That's an oversimplification, regardless of who said it.  The Church, however, did have the power to make decisions like that, as guided by the Holy Spirit--if you trust what the Bible says.  This is what "binding and loosing" means.  It is also evidenced by the expectations given for gentiles in the Council of Jerusalem (presided over by, not Peter, but James).

QuoteIn Catholic Christian Instructed,

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath. —Rt. Rev. Dr. Challoner, p. 211.

Funny...the Bible doesn't say that we are "obliged to keep" Sundays and other "holy days" to be set apart for God's worship.  That's actually counter to both the explicit and implicit instruction of scripture.

QuoteIn An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine,

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

That's circular.

QuoteQ. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power. –Rev. Henry Tuberville, D.D. (R.C.), (1833), page 58.

That's circular, too.

QuoteIn A Doctrinal Catechism,[/b]

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. –Rev. Stephen Keenan, (1851), p. 174.

Circular, again.  By the same argument, the Crusades were godly because they happened.  Ridiculous argument.

QuoteIn the Catechism of the Council of Trent,

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday! –p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937.  (First published in 1566)

That's a different argument altogether.  This is talking about "Sabbath rest" on Sunday.  Not about Sunday worship.

QuoteIn the Augsburg Confession,

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments. —Art. 28.

God warned that a blasphemous power would "seek to change times and laws," and the Catholic Church openly admits doing it, even boasts about it. In a sermon at the Council of Trent in 1562, the Archbishop of Reggia, Caspar del Fossa, claimed that the Catholic Church's whole authority is based upon the fact that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Does this not fulfill the prophecies of Daniel and Paul? Source (http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resources/article-library/articletype/articleview/articleid/916/pageid/1098/catholic-church-admits-they-made-the-change.aspx)

The Roman Catholic Church boasts about what it didn't do.  It's taking credit for something it has no right or credibility to take credit for.

But, hey, I don't care so much.  I'm not Roman Catholic.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 07:14:58 AM
All religions that have Jesus and His Father at the center, are "right".

Unfortunately, the human ego is capable of over complicating things, and, (through religion), thinking that they are on equal footing with Christ, or that they are God's earthly representatives. This is impossible.

As silly as this notion is......................it is forgiven. It's the reason that Jesus came here.

What are you so scared of?

Why do you insist on embarrassing yourself?
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 07:22:06 AM
I was raised as a Roman Catholic, and although I no longer practice it, you're beginning to hurt my feelings.

If you wish to tempt me into giving you a public bitch slapping...............keep it up. :glare:
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Murph on January 13, 2013, 07:43:42 AM
I am a strong Catholic- why do you intend to try to divide conservatives based on religion?
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 07:49:54 AM
Quote from: Murph on January 13, 2013, 07:43:42 AM
I am a strong Catholic- why do you intend to try to divide conservatives based on religion?

Typically, when people resort to the tactics that Yawn is using, it is a reflection of their own insecurity within their faith.

I'd recommend prayer.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 08:25:05 AM
Quite frankly, it's the same tactic that liberals use.

A persistent hammering on the "wrongness" of others......

All while cloaked in a shroud of self righteous indignation. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Solar on January 13, 2013, 09:09:51 AM
It's for these various reasons I subscribe to no Religion and never will again.

As was Pointed out in a Southpark episode, God decided the Mormons were correct. :lol:

Though God knows where my heart is, and if that's good enough for him....
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 11:51:02 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 13, 2013, 09:09:51 AM
It's for these various reasons I subscribe to no Religion and never will again.

As was Pointed out in a Southpark episode, God decided the Mormons were correct. :lol:

Though God knows where my heart is, and if that's good enough for him....

I don't have a problem with any religion.

On the other hand, when people like Yawn or the Westboro Baptist Church, decide to use their religion as a platform from which to launch attacks against others; I WILL step out of my happy place and set them straight. :wink:
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 03:31:34 PM
Good allah, you're sure full of yourself, aren't you.

Again, you have NOTHING to offer since you openly reject the Bible as God's word. Therefore, you only have your opinion--everybody's got one.

You're just angry that the church you love more than your Creator has been exposed. I published their own words, and THAT makes you angry. Get over yourself. Not everybody's going to worship at the feet of your pope when that church openly admits to "changing" the Law of God.  The Prophet Daniel warned that THAT was the mark of the ANTICHRIST. The Catholic Church doesn't speak for me, any more than MudHaqmMud speaks for me.  You want to convince me of something, do it from the pages of God's Word. If you can't it's nothing more than y6our own worthless opinion.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 03:31:34 PM
Good allah, you're sure full of yourself, aren't you.

Again, you have NOTHING to offer since you openly reject the Bible as God's word. Therefore, you only have your opinion--everybody's got one.

You're just angry that the church you love more than your Creator has been exposed. I published their own words, and THAT makes you angry. Get over yourself. Not everybody's going to worship at the feet of your pope when that church openly admits to "changing" the Law of God.  The Prophet Daniel warned that THAT was the mark of the ANTICHRIST. The Catholic Church doesn't speak for me, any more than MudHaqmMud speaks for me.  You want to convince me of something, do it from the pages of God's Word. If you can't it's nothing more than y6our own worthless opinion.

To whom are you speaking?

Your accusation seems odd since your initial post had a whole lot of sources that were not "from the pages of God's Word."
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 03:39:49 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 03:31:34 PM
Good allah, you're sure full of yourself, aren't you.

Again, you have NOTHING to offer since you openly reject the Bible as God's word. Therefore, you only have your opinion--everybody's got one.

You're just angry that the church you love more than your Creator has been exposed. I published their own words, and THAT makes you angry. Get over yourself. Not everybody's going to worship at the feet of your pope when that church openly admits to "changing" the Law of God.  The Prophet Daniel warned that THAT was the mark of the ANTICHRIST. The Catholic Church doesn't speak for me, any more than MudHaqmMud speaks for me.  You want to convince me of something, do it from the pages of God's Word. If you can't it's nothing more than y6our own worthless opinion.

I've got a better idea.

I'm gonna shut up, sit back, and watch you continue to sling your poison.

The good folks at Westboro can quote scripture too................all day long, and without cribsheets.

You must be very proud of yourself.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 03:43:45 PM
I wonder if you're aware that your beloved church put out "hits" on any of the Church of God caught " Judaizing" on the Sabbath (that is, HONORING God by refraining from work on the Sabbath).

QuoteCANON XXIX.

CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

You think I'm going to be put on defense when the Catholics and the daughter churches ATTACK God's clear COMMANDMENTS?! HELL NO!  :cursing:

That church has been at war against Christ's LITTLE Flock for 2,000 years, and you attack me for telling you the truth--which neither you (of course you can't) and MFA can defend, so you attack me PERSONALLY because that's all you have on this issue.

"Because I tell you the truth, I have become your enemy?" (http://bible.cc/galatians/4-16.htm)

Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 03:51:08 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 03:39:49 PM
I've got a better idea.

I'm gonna shut up, sit back, and watch you continue to sling your poison.

The good folks at Westboro can quote scripture too................all day long, and without cribsheets.

You must be very proud of yourself.

Your new bullying tactic is to associate me with a group YOU have more in common with than I do. But what else do you have? You can't defend breaking the sabbath command, so you attack the Messenger.

"Because I tell you the truth, I have become your enemy"
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: walkstall on January 13, 2013, 03:56:02 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 03:51:08 PM

"Because I tell you the truth, I have become your enemy"

ONLY in your own mind.    WHAT you believe in on your shoulders, as it should be.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 03:56:48 PM
WHY are you so angry that I QUOTED the teachings of your own Church and how they BRAG that they have the power of the Antichrist (to change Times & Laws)?

QuoteHe will defy the Most High and oppress the holy people of the Most High. He will try to change their sacred festivals and laws, and they will be placed under his control for a time, times, and half a time.--Daniel 7:25

A true CHRISTIAN will look into something to prove whether or not it is true. You simply get angry. That's because you love the organization more than your Creator. THAT is what separates the Christians from all of the other "good" people (yes, there are many "good" people who rebel against God).

Oh how I wish you had THI(S spirit:

QuoteNow the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 03:51:08 PM
Your new bullying tactic is to associate me with a group YOU have more in common with than I do. But what else do you have? You can't defend breaking the sabbath command, so you attack the Messenger.

"Because I tell you the truth, I have become your enemy"

You are not my enemy.

After reading this thread, along with your posts, I suspect that you are your own worst enemy.

What you are engaged in, is better known as projection:

b : the attribution of one's own ideas, feelings, or attitudes to other people or to objects; especially : the externalization of blame, guilt, or responsibility as a defense against anxiety

As I stated earlier; it is a state of mind that I usually associate with left wing liberals.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 04:12:31 PM
AGAIN you show that you cannot deal with the ISSUE of your church CHANGING the Sabbath. You cannot justify it and you're angry with me and attack me personally because I simply point out that they did it.

You really are a poor debater. I talk about ISSUES and you, in EVERY post, attack me personally.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 04:14:39 PM
Refresher for those who can't remember what the topic of a tread is:
(sorry, rat, but these are the teachings of that Church. Not mine. Don't hate me because I'm the Messenger)

In the Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday....
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her! —Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.

In Catholic Christian Instructed,

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath. —Rt. Rev. Dr. Challoner, p. 211.

In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine,

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power. –Rev. Henry Tuberville, D.D. (R.C.), (1833), page 58.

In A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. –Rev. Stephen Keenan, (1851), p. 174.

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent,

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday! –p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937.  (First published in 1566)

In the Augsburg Confession,

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments. —Art. 28.

God warned that a blasphemous power would "seek to change times and laws," and the Catholic Church openly admits doing it, even boasts about it. In a sermon at the Council of Trent in 1562, the Archbishop of Reggia, Caspar del Fossa, claimed that the Catholic Church's whole authority is based upon the fact that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Does this not fulfill the prophecies of Daniel and Paul? Source
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 04:12:31 PM
AGAIN you show that you cannot deal with the ISSUE of your church CHANGING the Sabbath. You cannot justify it and you're angry with me and attack me personally because I simply point out that they did it.

You really are a poor debater. I talk about ISSUES and you, in EVERY post, attack me personally.

There's nothing to debate. This entire thread is an attack.

Seriously dude............you need to settle down.

Have you ever considered putting your Bible down, and asking God for some personal direction?

You may think I'm the spawn of satan, but you might want to give it a try. God is available outside the pages of the Bible.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 04:22:55 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 04:18:12 PM
There's nothing to debate. This entire thread is an attack against Carl, the OP

Again you attack me rather than deal with the TEACHING of your Church.

THIS thread is about the Catholic Church's Teaching on how THEY Changed Times & Laws

Respond to the teaching of the Church, not your FEELINGS about me please:


In the Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday....
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her! —Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.

In Catholic Christian Instructed,

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath. —Rt. Rev. Dr. Challoner, p. 211.

In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine,

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power. –Rev. Henry Tuberville, D.D. (R.C.), (1833), page 58.

In A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. –Rev. Stephen Keenan, (1851), p. 174.

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent,

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday! –p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937.  (First published in 1566)

In the Augsburg Confession,

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments. —Art. 28.

God warned that a blasphemous power would "seek to change times and laws," and the Catholic Church openly admits doing it, even boasts about it. In a sermon at the Council of Trent in 1562, the Archbishop of Reggia, Caspar del Fossa, claimed that the Catholic Church's whole authority is based upon the fact that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Does this not fulfill the prophecies of Daniel and Paul? Source
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 03:56:48 PMA true CHRISTIAN will look into something to prove whether or not it is true. You simply get angry. That's because you love the organization more than your Creator. THAT is what separates the Christians from all of the other "good" people (yes, there are many "good" people who rebel against God).

You say that you don't accuse or judge people.  That others are doing it to you.

Can you not see the accusation in this post?  That you accuse someone of not being "a true CHRISTIAN"?  That someone "loves an organization more than his/her Creator"?

If you cannot see this as judgment and accusation then you are blind to your own behavior.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 04:31:26 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 04:22:55 PM
Again you attack me rather than deal with the TEACHING of your Church.

THIS thread is about the Catholic Church's Teaching on how THEY Changed Times & Laws

Respond to the teaching of the Church, not your FEELINGS about me please:


In the Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday....
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her! —Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.

In Catholic Christian Instructed,

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God's worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God's commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath. —Rt. Rev. Dr. Challoner, p. 211.

In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine,

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power. –Rev. Henry Tuberville, D.D. (R.C.), (1833), page 58.

In A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. –Rev. Stephen Keenan, (1851), p. 174.

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent,

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday! –p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937.  (First published in 1566)

In the Augsburg Confession,

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments. —Art. 28.

God warned that a blasphemous power would "seek to change times and laws," and the Catholic Church openly admits doing it, even boasts about it. In a sermon at the Council of Trent in 1562, the Archbishop of Reggia, Caspar del Fossa, claimed that the Catholic Church's whole authority is based upon the fact that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Does this not fulfill the prophecies of Daniel and Paul? Source

My church?

Who in the hell is Carl?

Over and out dude. Good luck to you; and no hard feelings here. I'll see you out on the political forum.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 04:23:34 PM
You say that you don't accuse or judge people.  That others are doing it to you.

Can you not see the accusation in this post?  That you accuse someone of not being "a true CHRISTIAN"?  That someone "loves an organization more than his/her Creator"?

If you cannot see this as judgment and accusation then you are blind to your own behavior.

I see you want to play again  :laugh:

Judgment? Damn right! But it's done out of love. I love both of you enough to speak the truth even if it pisses you off and rat refuses to even touch the TOPIC but rather attack me personally (as you just did too).

If the Commandment says, "Thou shalt not murder", and a church says, "Murder is okay with God", Are you being "judgmental" because YOU warn them that Thou shalt not murder is a COMMANDMENT of God? And an unrepentent MURDERER will pay a penalty for that SIN?  Or is it love????

You are showing LOVE by telling the truth.

You do understand, don't you, that the Sabbath COMMAND is a part of the SAME law that says You shall not murder.

Seriously, you two should look deep within and really wonder why this one COMMANDMENT, above all others, has you so angry?  They are all a part of the SAME law!

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God (not the Jews): in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10. Thou shalt not covet anything that is youre neighbor's
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 05:00:41 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 04:35:58 PM
I see you want to play again  :laugh:

Judgment? Damn right! But it's done out of love. I love both of you enough to speak the truth even if it pisses you off and rat refuses to even touch the TOPIC but rather attack me personally (as you just did too).

If the Commandment says, "Thou shalt not murder", and a church says, "Murder is okay with God", Are you being "judgmental" because YOU warn them that Thou shalt not murder is a COMMANDMENT of God? And an unrepentent MURDERER will pay a penalty for that SIN?  Or is it love????

You are showing LOVE by telling the truth.

You do understand, don't you, that the Sabbath COMMAND is a part of the SAME law that says You shall not murder.

Seriously, you two should look deep within and really wonder why this one COMMANDMENT, above all others, has you so angry?  They are all a part of the SAME law!

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God (not the Jews): in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10. Thou shalt not covet anything that is youre neighbor's

Thou shalt not kill............

Are all of our military personel that took a life, going to hell?

Cattle are not allowed to work on the sabbath? What constitutes work?

I am not teasing you or making fun of your beliefs.

BUT..............over the course of history, the attempts, (by humans), to literally translate the Bible, has resulted in some horrific episodes.

I AM a Christian. It is you that has made the determination that I am not good enough.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Murph on January 13, 2013, 05:07:28 PM
This thread summarized: Yawn is holier than thou.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 05:18:43 PM
Quote from: Murph on January 13, 2013, 05:07:28 PM
This thread summarized: Yawn is holier than thou.

I guess so.

Apparently there's a passage in the Bible that grants Yawn the authority to condemn an entire religion, and everyone that follows it.

My responses would be the same if he were talking about Jewish people. He's not on a healthy path.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 05:22:04 PM
Another OFFICIAL Response from the Catholic Church:

    Thomaston, Georgia
    May 22, 1954

    Pop Pius XII
    Rome, Italy

    Dear Sir;
    Is the accusation true, that Protestants accuse you of?  They say you
    changed the Seventh Day Sabbath to the, so-called, Christian Sunday:
    Identical with the First Day of the week.  If so, when did you make the
    change, and by what authority?

    Yours very truely,
    J. L. Day


The Reply:

THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pop Pius XII)

    Dear sir:
    Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the
    Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:

>     (1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith
>   and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath.
    The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe Sunday, stultifies
    them in the eyes of every thinking man.

      (2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.
    Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church,
    as a rule to guide us.  We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach
    and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial laws of
    the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday.
    We frankly say, "yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she
    made many other laws, for instance, the Friday Abstinence, the unmarried
    priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic
    marriages, and a thousand other laws.

      (3) We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are
    the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their
    teachings.  It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches,
    in pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sundays of which there
    is nothing in the Bible.

    With best wishes
    Peter R. Tramer, Editor
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 05:22:58 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 04:35:58 PM
I see you want to play again  :laugh:

Judgment? Damn right! But it's done out of love.

So that's okay then.

QuoteI love both of you enough to speak the truth even if it pisses you off and rat refuses to even touch the TOPIC but rather attack me personally (as you just did too).

But you claim that others judge you; why do you not presume that they do not do it out of love?  And what on earth makes you think that your posts piss me off?

QuoteIf the Commandment says, "Thou shalt not murder", and a church says, "Murder is okay with God", Are you being "judgmental" because YOU warn them that Thou shalt not murder is a COMMANDMENT of God? And an unrepentent MURDERER will pay a penalty for that SIN?  Or is it love????

You are showing LOVE by telling the truth.

Okay.

QuoteYou do understand, don't you, that the Sabbath COMMAND is a part of the SAME law that says You shall not murder.

And the same law that says don't eat pork and don't wear clothing made of mixed fabrics.  Where, in the Bible, are "the 10" distinguished from the rest of the law as applying for perpetuity but the rest is not?

QuoteSeriously, you two should look deep within and really wonder why this one COMMANDMENT, above all others, has you so angry?

I'm not angry.

QuoteThey are all a part of the SAME law!

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God (not the Jews): in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10. Thou shalt not covet anything that is youre neighbor's

"...I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law." (Galatians 5:3; note that Paul is using circumcision as an example of "keeping the law," but it can be applied to any part of the law).

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10)
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 05:23:43 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 13, 2013, 05:18:43 PM
I guess so.

Apparently there's a passage in the Bible that grants Yawn the authority to condemn an entire religion, and everyone that follows it.

My responses would be the same if he were talking about Jewish people. He's not on a healthy path.

I keep posting the words of the Catholic Church, and Rat keeps talking about his FEELINGS about me (that's the LIBERAL defense mechanism).  He can't debate a topic so he attacks the messenger. Can't blame him though. Their actions are indefensible.  :lol:
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 05:29:26 PM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 05:22:58 PM


I'm not angry.

No, you're not so much. More slippery and unable to stick with the topic. You do make SOME effort though.  Rat is good on some topics but he's really out of his element here and should stick with politics. He did lose credibility though when he admitted abortion is the MURDER of a human life, but thought it should be the choice between a woman and her doctor!!  I guess SOME human lives deserve protection, but not all!  That's when I saw an inability to reason and use basic logic. His FEELINGS get in the way of making rational judgments.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: MFA on January 13, 2013, 05:37:25 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 05:29:26 PM
No, you're not so much. More slippery and unable to stick with the topic. You do make SOME effort though.

Thanks for the kind evaluation. :wink:

QuoteRat is good on some topics but he's really out of his element here and should stick with politics.

This term, "Rat"--is that a term of endearment because of love?  When you offer judgment based on love, is calling someone "Rat" part of that?
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Darth Fife on January 13, 2013, 07:25:54 PM
Didn't read through this who discussion as it seemed to wander a bit, but as a recovering Catholic who attended 12 years of parochial schooling, it was my understanding that Catholics celebrate the "Sabbath" on Sunday instead of Saturday because Jesus rose from the Dead on the day after the Sabbath.

Well, that, and they wanted to distinguish themselves from the Jews in any way possible.

Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 14, 2013, 03:50:38 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 13, 2013, 05:29:26 PM
No, you're not so much. More slippery and unable to stick with the topic. You do make SOME effort though.  Rat is good on some topics but he's really out of his element here and should stick with politics. He did lose credibility though when he admitted abortion is the MURDER of a human life, but thought it should be the choice between a woman and her doctor!!  I guess SOME human lives deserve protection, but not all!  That's when I saw an inability to reason and use basic logic. His FEELINGS get in the way of making rational judgments.

I do believe that abortion is murder. The US supreme court doesn't, and it is legal in the US.

When a person makes a conscious decision to sin against God, I think that decision is between them and God. I have no obligation to enter their lives and attempt to prevent them from sinning. Also, for people that don't believe in God, sin is equally non-existent. They think nothing of getting abortions.

You, on the other hand, think that the laws of your particular church, should also be the laws of the "state", or that federal law should mirror Biblical law. Like it or not, this is not allowed under the first amendment.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 14, 2013, 04:07:18 AM
Quote from: MFA on January 13, 2013, 05:37:25 PM
Thanks for the kind evaluation. :wink:

This term, "Rat"--is that a term of endearment because of love?  When you offer judgment based on love, is calling someone "Rat" part of that?

For the newer people: kramarat is just my name and my wife's name, spelled backwards. mark-tara

With my luck, writing something backwards is probably the work of the devil. :blink: :smile:
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Yawn on January 14, 2013, 04:12:39 PM
"Rat" is meaningless, but his "name" isn't familiar so rather than highlighting it and pasting it, I just called him "rat." No offence intended, but some are easily offended. 
QuoteGreat peace have they which love thy law (the Ten COMMANDMENTS): and nothing shall offend them.

I sometimes call you "Made for Adsense" because I'm on an adsense forum and a common topic is websites specifically "Made for Adsense." Google frowns on these kinds of websites. It is always shortened MFA on that forum--just an inside joke to no one but myself.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: MFA on January 14, 2013, 04:55:51 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 14, 2013, 04:12:39 PMI sometimes call you "Made for Adsense" because I'm on an adsense forum and a common topic is websites specifically "Made for Adsense." Google frowns on these kinds of websites. It is always shortened MFA on that forum--just an inside joke to no one but myself.

:biggrin: I was wondering where that came from.

MFA is short for "Mercy for All," the moniker I use on "another forum."
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 15, 2013, 04:29:34 AM
Quote from: Yawn on January 14, 2013, 04:12:39 PM
"Rat" is meaningless, but his "name" isn't familiar so rather than highlighting it and pasting it, I just called him "rat." No offence intended, but some are easily offended. 
I sometimes call you "Made for Adsense" because I'm on an adsense forum and a common topic is websites specifically "Made for Adsense." Google frowns on these kinds of websites. It is always shortened MFA on that forum--just an inside joke to no one but myself.

I couldn't care less about being called Rat.

What I find offensive, is when someone becomes so enamored with their own Biblical knowledge, that they lose sight of what being a Christian is all about, choose to turn on their fellow Christians, and appoint themselves judge and jury on both; people as individuals, as well as the Christian religion that they decide to practice.

This is exactly what the Westboro Baptist Church does, and it's disgusting. :mad:
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Solar on January 15, 2013, 05:50:51 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 15, 2013, 04:29:34 AM
I couldn't care less about being called Rat.

What I find offensive, is when someone becomes so enamored with their own Biblical knowledge, that they lose sight of what being a Christian is all about, choose to turn on their fellow Christians, and appoint themselves judge and jury on both; people as individuals, as well as the Christian religion that they decide to practice.

This is exactly what the Westboro Baptist Church does, and it's disgusting. :mad:
It was exactly that attitude that turned me against organized Religion and had me asking more questions than any of them could answer without piety.
The answers I finally found was even God wanted nothing to do with these people that felt it was their way or the highway. God never wanted perfection, he knew man was imperfect from the start, but it's that imperfection that causes man to search for answers and strive to be better, that's what God truly appreciates.
What he doesn't appreciate is those that claim to have reached the pinnacle of understanding, only to preach ignorance in God's name.

Fact is, God just wants every individual to seek perfection and fail, there is no such thing as a perfect man, never has, and never will be.
Only those that do the right thing when no one but God is watching, is as close to perfection as man will ever get in the eyes of God.

I watched my dad do it and that's when I knew that it wasn't any Religion or church that brought you closer to god and what he expected of us, but rather our deeds when no one else was watching.
Doing the right thing when you didn't really have to, that's all God asks of us, kindness for our fellow man and the creatures of the Earth.

I look down upon no one striving for answers through Religion, I hope they find what they are looking for.
But Religion is not God.
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: kramarat on January 15, 2013, 07:49:59 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 15, 2013, 05:50:51 AM
It was exactly that attitude that turned me against organized Religion and had me asking more questions than any of them could answer without piety.
The answers I finally found was even God wanted nothing to do with these people that felt it was their way or the highway. God never wanted perfection, he knew man was imperfect from the start, but it's that imperfection that causes man to search for answers and strive to be better, that's what God truly appreciates.
What he doesn't appreciate is those that claim to have reached the pinnacle of understanding, only to preach ignorance in God's name.

Fact is, God just wants every individual to seek perfection and fail, there is no such thing as a perfect man, never has, and never will be.
Only those that do the right thing when no one but God is watching, is as close to perfection as man will ever get in the eyes of God.

I watched my dad do it and that's when I knew that it wasn't any Religion or church that brought you closer to god and what he expected of us, but rather our deeds when no one else was watching.
Doing the right thing when you didn't really have to, that's all God asks of us, kindness for our fellow man and the creatures of the Earth.

I look down upon no one striving for answers through Religion, I hope they find what they are looking for.
But Religion is not God.

Whether it's within a church, or not; when certain Christians reach the conclusion that there is a "pecking order" within Christianity, and that they are at the top of it, and are somehow more worthy of God's love than others...........it's a dangerous path for them to be following. I consider it to be a corrupt deviation from Christianity, that is based in pride and arrogance. Not good.

David Koresh is a glaring example of what can happen when someone, (through scripture), is able to delude themselves into thinking that they are the, (earthly), right hand of God Himself. Jim Jones is another.

I hope we won't be adding Yawn to that list. :scared:
Title: Re: How the Other Church Imposed Sunday Worship on the World
Post by: Solar on January 15, 2013, 08:20:41 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 15, 2013, 07:49:59 AM
Whether it's within a church, or not; when certain Christians reach the conclusion that there is a "pecking order" within Christianity, and that they are at the top of it, and are somehow more worthy of God's love than others...........it's a dangerous path for them to be following. I consider it to be a corrupt deviation from Christianity, that is based in pride and arrogance. Not good.

David Koresh is a glaring example of what can happen when someone, (through scripture), is able to delude themselves into thinking that they are the, (earthly), right hand of God Himself. Jim Jones is another.

I hope we won't be adding Yawn to that list. :scared:
I agree, like praying three times towards Mecca, praying less or more doesn't make you any better than the quadriplegic whom can't show his reverence.
Knowing God and following rituals are two different things, our actions towards others is what matters in the end.