Hosea 13:16

[Yawn]

I thought I'd help the God Haters out by explaining this one (as a start).

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

The People of Samaria, during this time, were the Ten  Tribes of Israel. The leading Tribe was Joseph. He held the Birthright promise. The Samaritans of Jesus' day were not Israelites. They were driven out of the Land of Israel for 2520 years as a punishment for their sins. The Samaritans of Jesus' day were foreigners who moved into the Land and they were held in contempt by the Jews (the Tribe of Judah).

The Samaritans (Israel) sinned against God. The culture was completely corrupt. They even sacrificed their children in the fire (usually the first born) to Molech. Molech was the god worshiped by the surrounding nations. It is the same god known in ancient Rome as Saturn. The Romans celebrated Saturnalia on December 25th. The Catholic Church borrowed this pagan festival to honor Saturn (Molech) but did it for the "Lord." They have adopted many pagan festivals (such as Ishtar) and "christianized" them. This "sin of mixtures" is something the scriptures clearly forbid.

Now, the Samarians (Ten Tribes of Israel) offered their child to Molech by placing the child in the outstretched arms of Molech. These metallic arms were heated red hot by a fire built under the arms. The baby was FRIED on the metal arms and consumed by the fire. The REAL Lord was not pleased with this. In fact, good king Josiah bought Israel (Samaria) a few more years of peace when he destroyed all the places of worship. But it only lasted while he was alive. After that, Samaria slipped back into her sins of child murder and more.



Understanding this, THIS is where this particular prophecy comes in.


The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

Do ALL cultures deserve to exist if they refuse to turn from violent sins and crimes?  Nazi Germany murdered tens of millions of innocent victims. Would you judge God as evil because he heard the cries of the innocent Jews, Christians, handicapped and others and inspired great armies (USA, Britain) to carpet bomb their cities?

What if a prophet warned that Berlin would be invaded, the women raped, and the men killed (it happened). Is God evil because He warned that culture that if they continued in their sins/crimes, horrible things would happen to the citizens of Berlin? The Americans and British were civilized warriors, but the Russians were brutal to the German People. Is that God's fault, or did the German culture bring it on themselves?

But because of the distance of time, and your own lack of knowledge of the ancient Samaritans, you feel qualified to judge God for punishing these people for their sins/crimes.

[Sci Fi Fan]

You're wasting your breath.  Even if we accept that this specific verse is not an indictment against God, Deuteronomy contains laws directly ordained by God to kill people who work on Sundays, stone to death girls who aren't virgins when they marry, stone to death disobedient teenagers, kill homosexuals and burn whores at the stake.  There is also a law telling rapists to pay a victim's family money...and then marry her.

Did I mention the various instances where God mandates abortions and miscarriages?  Really, I have no clue where the "God hates abortions" notion comes along; not only is such a stance never even implied, God has openly stated precisely the opposite.

----

Has it ever occurred to you that nowhere in the Old Testament, or in some subjects even the New Testament, does God ever champion any of the truly great social achievements of human civilization?  Yeah, sure, he tells you (rather inconsistently and hypocritically) not to kill, commit adultery, lie, cheat, steal, etc.  Even animal herds have a basic understanding of these concepts.  They are nothing knew.  Yet never once does he abolish slavery, openly declare all equal under the law, etc.  If he had, John Locke would have had nothing to say. 

In other words, the Declaration of Independence is a document that promotes ideals vastly more enlightened than the bible ever was.  The notion of all being created equal was unfathomable to early Church leaders.  Secular humanists outstripped the early religious leaders by orders of magnitude.

[JustKari]

So you came to the religion forum "looking for answers and justification" but when you are given answers, your response is "don't even try"?  SSF, are you here to engage in discussion, or is your motive to attempt to smear Christians?  You are more than welcome to engage in dialog, but I will ask you here and now to leave that chip on your shoulder at the door.

[MFA]

The verse in question is not a command.  Nobody is being commanded to do this.  It's a prediction.

Seriously, have people lost the ability to even read?

[Sci Fi Fan]

So you came to the religion forum "looking for answers and justification" but when you are given answers, your response is "don't even try"? 

You're misreading me.  You're wasting your breath if you think a context specific refutation of a singular verse on the grounds of not technically being condoned by God himself does anything other than stall, because I can easily summon quotes of laws and policies directly ordained by God.

[JustKari]

You're misreading me.  You're wasting your breadth if you think a context specific refutation of a singular verse on the grounds of not technically being condoned by God himself does anything other than stall, because I can easily summon quotes of laws and policies directly ordained by God.

If you have something you want to discuss, do it.

[Sci Fi Fan]

If you have something you want to discuss, do it.

Sure thing.

I'll start off with a less heinous, but still cruel and unusual, law from Exodus 35:2.

Keep you my sabbath: for it is holy unto you: he that shall profane it, shall be put to death: he that shall do my work in it, his soul shall perish out of the midst of his people. 

Kill your neighbor...for working on Sundays?

-----

Let's do another one.

22:21

[if a girl is not a virgin when she marries]  Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

[walkstall]

Sci Fi Fan

One subject per post please, that way there no misunderstanding.

[IBeMe]

Yep, those are the laws of God, punishable by death.

However that was the Old Testament; which doesn't mean that the condemnation of death was done away.

Adam and Eve chose carnality over Godliness and we, their offspring, are stuck with it.
God proved, with the children of Israel, that it's impossible for carnal man to keep the commandments of God.

Jesus came and died in our place, taking the condemnation of death upon himself.

That's God's offer, ask Jesus into your heart accepting Him as your savior; having died in your place.
If you do that with a sincere heart, all sin and the condemnation of death will be removed from your soul, and you'll know in an instant what this is all about.

Until then, you'll never be able to understand!

In the New Testament, we don't go around stoning folks, everybody is guilty.

The Christian's job is to keep all the commandments of God and show others the plan of salvation.

Choose this day whom you will serve; God or man.

[Sci Fi Fan]

However that was the Old Testament

Unless if you consider the Old Testament to be outright inaccurate, the time period is no excuse for an almighty deity.  It is never morally acceptable to condone mass genocide; I really don't care if rules that involve burning random people at the stake for trivial offenses only applied thousands of years ago; they were still wrong, and you shouldn't either.

[MFA]

Unless if you consider the Old Testament to be outright inaccurate, the time period is no excuse for an almighty deity.  It is never morally acceptable to condone mass genocide; I really don't care if rules that involve burning random people at the stake for trivial offenses only applied thousands of years ago; they were still wrong, and you shouldn't either.

Are you appealing to some kind of absolute morality?  If so, based on what?  If not, then how can you justify what is "ever" morally acceptable or unacceptable?

[JustKari]

Sure thing.

I'll start off with a less heinous, but still cruel and unusual, law from Exodus 35:2.

Kill your neighbor...for working on Sundays?

-----

Let's do another one.

22:21

I am not sure which translation you are using, but I looked through 6 different translations and could not find it.  Please post it.  I check NIV, NKJV, CEV, ASV, Amplified, and the Complete Jewish Bible which I have quoted.  It is more accurate.  Again, This Moses (Moshe) expounding on the words of God (ADONAI).  The law was supposed to be difficult, it was MEANT to make the people realize that they could not be saved by works. 

Exodus 35

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Parashah 22: Vayak'hel (He assembled) 35:1–38:20


35 Moshe assembled the whole community of the people of Isra'el and said to them, "These are the things which Adonai has ordered you to do. 2 On six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is to be a holy day for you, a Shabbat of complete rest in honor of Adonai. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. 3 You are not to kindle a fire in any of your homes on Shabbat."

As to 22:21  Where??  What book am I looking at?

[Sci Fi Fan]

I am not sure which translation you are using, but I looked through 6 different translations and could not find it.  Please post it.

Exodus 31:12-15

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+31%3A12-15&version=ESV

Christians have put forward convincing mistranslation arguments to explain scientifically inaccurate statements regarding the stars and the Earth, but I don't see how this can be misinterpreted.

But please tell me if this website is fraudulent, or something.

[JustKari]

12 And the LORD said to Moses, 13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD,sanctify you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.

So this verse is similar, but is not the verse you quoted here

Sure thing.

I'll start off with a less heinous, but still cruel and unusual, law from Exodus 35:2.

Kill your neighbor...for working on Sundays?

-----

Let's do another one.

22:21

As I have said, the law was meant to look easy, but be impossible so that the Israelites would realise that works alone do not save you.  All you have to do is look at the garden of Edon to realize that what God wanted, which would not happen again until Jesus, was relationship.  The Israelites asked for rules, then asked for laws, then asked for human governance, all because they just couldn't accept God as Jahovah Jireh.

[Sci Fi Fan]

As I have said, the law was meant to look easy, but be impossible so that the Israelites would realise that works alone do not save you. 

Where in the Bible does God clarify this, or are you just making up rationalizations for him?