execution in AZ: Was it "cruel and unusual" by pope's definition? hmmm

Started by LIFESUCKS-SHOOTME, July 25, 2014, 08:42:02 AM

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LIFESUCKS-SHOOTME

I am a devout Catholic, have studied Catholic history and doctrine, etc. I have my issues w/ the Church but those concerns have nothing to do with doctrine or even history, which is not to say there aren't some big problems in the Church's history, only that those problems have been grossly misunderstood and facts distorted...

So anyhow, this informed and practicing Catholic has some questions RE the Church's position on the death penalty which basically is that if society has the means to keep murderers locked up for life (no chance of escape) we should not resort to the death penalty. Also, I have read books and articles on how people are put onDeath Row but are later found 2b innocent. So... I am trying to work through all this.. I've heard that rarely happens (innocent people on DR), and hasn't happened lately..

My own position is that, well, frankly, I couldn't care less about that killer in AZ and how he (according to libs, more than likely) "suffered" The victims watched the death as well and say that he did NOT suffer and I believe them (even though they could also not have cared less if he suffered somewhat)

I don't say murderers being executed should suffer horrendously, but the state has not legalized lethal injection solutions that are "cruel and unusual" and i just wish those opposing the death penalty would find a more efficacious and important cause...


________ :glare:   

taxed

I'm a fan of public hangings and executing the criminal in the same manner as his victims, so I'm a little biased.
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CG6468

Execution of criminals should be public, not in hidden places that citizens cannot access.

Proof of guilt undeniable? No governors' or presidential pardons, no taxpayers' money for repeated appeals. Just pull the switch, insert the needle and inject the poison, get the rope for hanging, or use the firing squad, and within 6 months of conviction.

I'm not biased. I'm thinking logically. Think of the money we'd save.
1960s Coast Guardsman

SVPete

Using Scripture as the reference point, several things can be seen.

First, the death penalty is a permissible punishment. This can be seen in both the Old and New Testament.

Second, there is no Scripture mandating that a government capable of incarcerating some one for life do so instead of execution. The Roman government had no lack of ability to imprison people long term.

Third, Scripture sets the evidentiary bar for the death penalty quite high - two or three (not that that was a limit) witnesses.

Fourth, Scripture specified a method of execution that was fairly quick and not torturous. Looked at in another way, Scripture does not mandate that executions be painless.

Human governments, being human rather than theocratic, can do otherwise than what God set as a norm. Outside of a certain range - either toward brutality or toward leniency - a society experiences consequences, either in a brutal, unpleasant, society, or in a crime-ridden, fiscally burdened society.

IMO, speaking as a non-Catholic, the Pope is free to advocate what pod says he teaches on the basis that he believes it to be humane or conducive to a pleasant society. IMO, he should not teach this as doctrine or as just based on Scripture, because it is not.
SVPete

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Those who can, do.
Those who know, teach.
Ignorant incapables, regulate.

Darth Fife

I don't understand why questions of morality are automatically considered to be the province of organized religion. Especially when the "Big 3" organized religions share an extended history of extremely immoral dogma and policies!

I look at it another way. The Criminal Justice system at its very best is not perfect. At its worst, it is extremely susceptible to corruption - we are seeing that now with the Obama administration. Given this, rather stark and inescapable reality, it is only a matter of time (actually, I'm sure it has already happened more than once) before an innocent person is executed for a crime they didn't commit.

They question each one of us has to ask ourselves is are we willing to murder (because that is what it is) an innocent human being for the "good of society"?

And then you might want to ask yourself, what if that person executed for a crime they didn't commit is your wife, husband, father, mother, or sister or brother? Would you be willing to sacrifice their lives for the "good of society"?

The only moral course for a society faced with a murderer is to set up conditions that ensure that that murderer will not kill again. Anything else is pure barbarism.

-Darth

Mountainshield

Quote from: Darth Fife on August 08, 2014, 04:44:38 PM
I don't understand why questions of morality are automatically considered to be the province of organized religion. Especially when the "Big 3" organized religions share an extended history of extremely immoral dogma and policies!

I look at it another way. The Criminal Justice system at its very best is not perfect. At its worst, it is extremely susceptible to corruption - we are seeing that now with the Obama administration. Given this, rather stark and inescapable reality, it is only a matter of time (actually, I'm sure it has already happened more than once) before an innocent person is executed for a crime they didn't commit.

They question each one of us has to ask ourselves is are we willing to murder (because that is what it is) an innocent human being for the "good of society"?

And then you might want to ask yourself, what if that person executed for a crime they didn't commit is your wife, husband, father, mother, or sister or brother? Would you be willing to sacrifice their lives for the "good of society"?

The only moral course for a society faced with a murderer is to set up conditions that ensure that that murderer will not kill again. Anything else is pure barbarism.

-Darth

So you agree with the sentence the commie Anders Breivik got for killing 69 other commies? 21 years in prison, minimum 10 and then spend the rest of his life in an asylum? It would meet the criteria of "conditions that ensure that that murderer will not kill again". ofc he lives quite comfortably in his prison house with computer, books and entertainment, hell the state even pays workers to be friends with him as anything else would be barbarism.

QuoteAnd then you might want to ask yourself, what if that person executed for a crime they didn't commit is your wife, husband, father, mother, or sister or brother? Would you be willing to sacrifice their lives for the "good of society"?

If there was evidence enough to remove all doubts that a family member was a murderer then I would want that family member to face Justice, an eye for an eye for practical reasoning, but as for judging the person I would leave that to God. And if by some chance they were innocent (which would be extremely unlikely given the already stated evidence) at least they would get ultimate justice with God.

As for OP with cruel and unusual punishment, sentencing Anders Breivik to a lifetime in a pain amplifier like the ones in Frank Herbert's Dune would be cruel and unusual punishment. The reason for this I think is because it would feel good, it would be vengeance and not justice. A relative quick death is the civilized way to go, personally I prefer hanging as I remember a quote from a thirty years wars Marshall (can't remember his name) which said; "There can be no justice until every criminal is hanging from a lamp post".

Darth Fife

Quote from: Mountainshield on August 09, 2014, 02:44:56 AM
So you agree with the sentence the commie Anders Breivik got for killing 69 other commies? 21 years in prison, minimum 10 and then spend the rest of his life in an asylum? It would meet the criteria of "conditions that ensure that that murderer will not kill again". ofc he lives quite comfortably in his prison house with computer, books and entertainment, hell the state even pays workers to be friends with him as anything else would be barbarism.

I'll go even farther, I think that if he could be safely released back into society, he should be. Now, that isn't to say he shouldn't have to pay some sort of restitution. Once released I would h have no problem with him have to pay a certain portion of any money he makes to the families of his victims. In fact I could imagine a scenario where 100% of his earnings go to his victims with him living in a state facility that provides room and board.

QuoteIf there was evidence enough to remove all doubts that a family member was a murderer then I would want that family member to face Justice, an eye for an eye for practical reasoning, but as for judging the person I would leave that to God. And if by some chance they were innocent (which would be extremely unlikely given the already stated evidence) at least they would get ultimate justice with God.

"And eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will leave us all blind and toothless."

-Gandhi

QuoteAs for OP with cruel and unusual punishment, sentencing Anders Breivik to a lifetime in a pain amplifier like the ones in Frank Herbert's Dune would be cruel and unusual punishment. The reason for this I think is because it would feel good, it would be vengeance and not justice. A relative quick death is the civilized way to go, personally I prefer hanging as I remember a quote from a thirty years wars Marshall (can't remember his name) which said; "There can be no justice until every criminal is hanging from a lamp post".

Is it ever a good idea to give the State the power to kill its Citizens? And, if it does have that power, are we no longer Citizens, but merely Subjects?

...or "serfs"...



-Darth

Solar

Quote from: Darth Fife on August 09, 2014, 08:19:01 AM
I'll go even farther, I think that if he could be safely released back into society
Why? He revoked said right when he took the lives of others in a premeditated action, in turn proving beyond a doubt he is capable of repeating such an action.
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Darth Fife

Quote from: Solar on August 09, 2014, 08:43:27 AM
Why? He revoked said right when he took the lives of others in a premeditated action, in turn proving beyond a doubt he is capable of repeating such an action.

Alive, he can become a productive part of society and pay restitution to the families of the victim he killed.

Dead, he can do neither.

-Darth

walkstall

Quote from: Darth Fife on August 09, 2014, 12:40:13 PM
Alive, he can become a productive part of society and pay restitution to the families of the victim he killed.

Dead, he can do neither.

-Darth


Or kill a lot more people.  By the way would you hire him as your house servant, so he could be productive? 
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Solar

Quote from: Darth Fife on August 09, 2014, 12:40:13 PM
Alive, he can become a productive part of society and pay restitution to the families of the victim he killed.

Dead, he can do neither.

-Darth
I'll bet you've never met a true sociopath, have you?
You can't fix evil, it lacks the capacity of compassion, it plays by it's own rules, Yin and Yang does not exist in it's world, only Yin.
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Darth Fife

Quote from: Solar on August 09, 2014, 04:32:14 PM
I'll bet you've never met a true sociopath, have you?
You can't fix evil, it lacks the capacity of compassion, it plays by it's own rules, Yin and Yang does not exist in it's world, only Yin.

And when sociopaths control the Government (as they do now) and that government has the power to execute its Citizens (as it does now), how long will it be before the Government starts executing its Citizens as "Enemies of the State"?

When will the drones which are flying over Iraq and Afghanistan and executing "terrorists" be flying over Philadelphia and Los Angeles and summarily executing "Enemies of the State"?

Darth

Solar

Quote from: Darth Fife on November 21, 2014, 12:28:52 PM
And when sociopaths control the Government (as they do now) and that government has the power to execute its Citizens (as it does now), how long will it be before the Government starts executing its Citizens as "Enemies of the State"?

When will the drones which are flying over Iraq and Afghanistan and executing "terrorists" be flying over Philadelphia and Los Angeles and summarily executing "Enemies of the State"?

Darth
And to think, you thought mentioning aliens in another thread would get it relegated to the conspiracy forum. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yes, I laugh at the idiocy of your statement. We are still a nation of laws, and until that day, posts like yours will be stultified.
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Darth Fife

Quote from: Solar on November 21, 2014, 01:00:21 PM
And to think, you thought mentioning aliens in another thread would get it relegated to the conspiracy forum. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yes, I laugh at the idiocy of your statement. We are still a nation of laws, and until that day, posts like yours will be stultified.

Forgive me if I don't have the same blinders on that most people here seem to have!

Look around you!

Across the country, we have police forces which are not so much law enforcement organizations as they are occupational armies whose sole purpose is to carry out the orders of the government!

They have become militarized and nationalized to an alarming extent, and their use of extra Constitutional powers i.e. no-knock warrants, entrapment, etc, is eclipsed only by that of the President himself!

There is no longer a presumption of innocence - if you are stopped by a cop for any reason whatsoever, you are presumed to be guilty until you can prove your innocence!

If you choose not to comply with a cops instructions (actually they are orders!) even in the most innocuous way, it could cost you your life!

And then, of course, there is always the NSA's domestic spying program!

Is it really that inconceivable that one day in the not too distant future we will be seeing drone strikes against "Public Enemies"?

We have surveillance drones flying over this country as we speak!

And, isn't that the way it started in the Middle East? First surveillance drones; then the announcement that a terrorist cells had been "taken out" by an armed drone! Of course, that was okay because it was those durn feriners!

Then, an American Citizen (admittedly a low life POS, but still and American) was summarily executed by remote control!

Now, drone strikes are common...

Good God, man! Talk about your slippery slopes, it's like we are halfway down the men's olympic ski jump without skis, and you are saying, "Eh... not a problem!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRYEUlDU0E4

Darth

Solar

Quote from: Darth Fife on November 24, 2014, 05:58:13 AM
Forgive me if I don't have the same blinders on that most people here seem to have!

Look around you!

Across the country, we have police forces which are not so much law enforcement organizations as they are occupational armies whose sole purpose is to carry out the orders of the government!

They have become militarized and nationalized to an alarming extent, and their use of extra Constitutional powers i.e. no-knock warrants, entrapment, etc, is eclipsed only by that of the President himself!

There is no longer a presumption of innocence - if you are stopped by a cop for any reason whatsoever, you are presumed to be guilty until you can prove your innocence!

If you choose not to comply with a cops instructions (actually they are orders!) even in the most innocuous way, it could cost you your life!

And then, of course, there is always the NSA's domestic spying program!

Is it really that inconceivable that one day in the not too distant future we will be seeing drone strikes against "Public Enemies"?

We have surveillance drones flying over this country as we speak!

And, isn't that the way it started in the Middle East? First surveillance drones; then the announcement that a terrorist cells had been "taken out" by an armed drone! Of course, that was okay because it was those durn feriners!

Then, an American Citizen (admittedly a low life POS, but still and American) was summarily executed by remote control!

Now, drone strikes are common...

Good God, man! Talk about your slippery slopes, it's like we are halfway down the men's olympic ski jump without skis, and you are saying, "Eh... not a problem!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRYEUlDU0E4

Darth
The reason I ridicule, is because everything you reference are condensed liberal hubs, cities in decay, all run by Dims, all have "Appointed" police chiefs of like mind.
Geographically speaking, less than 1% of the US, while the rest of the country elects if Sheriffs.

You see, most of the nation looks at the city folk as sheep waiting to be led to slaughter.
Like you, we too have a view of America, and from where we sit, your world is pretty much a waste of time to us, so what happens in your little self aggrandized importance, is really of no matter to us.

What makes you all so vulnerable, is the density of population, like sheep in a pen awaiting slaughter, while the rest of society is free range and near impossible to corral.
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