Everything happens for a reason

Started by alienhand, July 13, 2019, 12:12:05 AM

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alienhand

What does everything happens for a reason even mean?  If everything happens for a reason then how do any of us have free will and control over our own destinies?  Were those who committed murder in our past, committing murder in the now and will commit murder in the future meant to commit murder?  Were those who were murdered meant to die at that particular point?

Was Jesus meant to die on the cross when he did?  Was it ordained that he would die on the cross?  If Judas had no other choice but to betray Jesus then how did Judas sin?  How did he betray anyone at all?  Didn't Judas serve his purpose?

I don't get it.  How does free will, choice, personal responsibility coincide with everything happening for a reason?

Am I misunderstanding something somewhere?




midcan5

A fascinating question, of course everything happens for a reason for if nothing preceded everything how would there be something. You have to read Galen Strawson sometime or check out his writings and YouTubes. See link below.

Your comment on Judas seems to indicate you are doubting religion and wondering about free will and determinism. Free will is a tough sell as we do not at any time select our birth or many other items that make us us. We are individuals who managed to be out of twenty million possibilities this person. And consider too a quote I like since you mention Judas, 'How can the Devil be evil if he punishes people who do evil things?' 

But I'd argue there is brief or slim chance and hope that we think hard enough or deep enough to know free will is imaginary but so is determinism. I'll see what others say.

"It struck me as an operational way to define free will, in a way that allowed you to reconcile free will with determinism. The system is deterministic, but you can't say what it's going to do next."  James Gleick 'Chaos'

https://believermag.com/an-interview-with-galen-strawson/

"Free will is the thing you have to have if you're going to be responsible in this all-or-nothing way. That's what I mean by free will. That's what I think we haven't got and can't have."  Galen Strawson

Wanna make America great, buy American owned, made in the USA, we do. AF Veteran, P-type: Advocate INFJ-A, liberal - conservative.

Solar

Quote from: alienhand on July 13, 2019, 12:12:05 AM
What does everything happens for a reason even mean?  If everything happens for a reason then how do any of us have free will and control over our own destinies?  Were those who committed murder in our past, committing murder in the now and will commit murder in the future meant to commit murder?  Were those who were murdered meant to die at that particular point?

Was Jesus meant to die on the cross when he did?  Was it ordained that he would die on the cross?  If Judas had no other choice but to betray Jesus then how did Judas sin?  How did he betray anyone at all?  Didn't Judas serve his purpose?

I don't get it.  How does free will, choice, personal responsibility coincide with everything happening for a reason?

Am I misunderstanding something somewhere?
Life is akin to a board game with certain parameters being life and taking steps to pass go and trying to keep out of jail.
There are infinite rules to simply being, even rolling the dice is like taking a chance on your next move, but you also have the freewill to sit at start and never take a risk, but then, that's not really living, that's just existing.
Stop playing the character of a coward in life and Fuckin roll the damn dice already! What in the Hell are you afraid of?
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

Sick Of Silence

Everything happens for a reason: if you get dumped by your girlfriend, and you meet a better girl when you are out and about, it's fate. If you didn't get dumped, you would not have been in that situation to meet the new girl. It happened for a reason.
With all these lawyers with cameras on the street i'm shocked we have so much crime in the world.

There is constitutional law and there is law and order. This challenge to law and order is always the start to loosing our constitutional rights.

Frauditors are a waste of life.

milos

Quote from: alienhand on July 13, 2019, 12:12:05 AM
What does everything happens for a reason even mean?  If everything happens for a reason then how do any of us have free will and control over our own destinies?  Were those who committed murder in our past, committing murder in the now and will commit murder in the future meant to commit murder?  Were those who were murdered meant to die at that particular point?

Was Jesus meant to die on the cross when he did?  Was it ordained that he would die on the cross?  If Judas had no other choice but to betray Jesus then how did Judas sin?  How did he betray anyone at all?  Didn't Judas serve his purpose?

I don't get it.  How does free will, choice, personal responsibility coincide with everything happening for a reason?

Am I misunderstanding something somewhere?

The question of free will bothers me too very much. Once when I was young, I thought free will meant we can completely design our lives. But as I grow older, I realised there is very little we can actually do or change, if anything at all. God has created us with certain personality and predetermined behavior, and so what can we change or do ourselves? Nothing, really. That is why Jesus said we should hate the sin but not the sinner. Free will means very little, and that is that we are responsible for our deeds, but that doesn't mean that we have created our deeds. That is why the human ego is an illusion.

Look at the John Lennon's very underestimated song "All You Need Is Love". The lyrics are perfectly answering to your inquiries. Especially these ones.

Nothing you can do, but you can learn how to be you in time. It's easy. All you need is love.

There's nothing you can do, but you can learn how to be the best version of yourself. And what you need is love to God and love to other people and love to yourself. That is why God has created the world.
One Christ. One Body of Christ. One Eucharist. One Church.

alienhand

Quote from: milos on July 13, 2019, 11:03:56 AM
The question of free will bothers me too very much. Once when I was young, I thought free will meant we can completely design our lives. But as I grow older, I realised there is very little we can actually do or change, if anything at all. God has created us with certain personality and predetermined behavior, and so what can we change or do ourselves? Nothing, really. That is why Jesus said we should hate the sin but not the sinner. Free will means very little, and that is that we are responsible for our deeds, but that doesn't mean that we have created our deeds. That is why the human ego is an illusion.

Look at the John Lennon's very underestimated song "All You Need Is Love". The lyrics are perfectly answering to your inquiries. Especially these ones.

Nothing you can do, but you can learn how to be you in time. It's easy. All you need is love.

There's nothing you can do, but you can learn how to be the best version of yourself. And what you need is love to God and love to other people and love to yourself. That is why God has created the world.

You know what Milos?   I'm going to meditate on this. 

But, God created us b/c he wanted something to give out his love to.

alienhand

#6
Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 06:47:57 AM
Life is akin to a board game with certain parameters being life and taking steps to pass go and trying to keep out of jail.
There are infinite rules to simply being, even rolling the dice is like taking a chance on your next move, but you also have the freewill to sit at start and never take a risk, but then, that's not really living, that's just existing.
Stop playing the character of a coward in life and Fuckin roll the damn dice already! What in the Hell are you afraid of?

Ok Solar I'm going to do the same for you as I do walkstall.  Anytime, I'm told that I'm on welfare, told to sack up, roll the dice, take personal responsibility for my life, etc, etc, etc when I don't know how I will say:

Will you be my Henry Higgins from My Fair Lady and/or Pygmalion?

This goes for anyone.

Rotwang

Well, I do know Jesus put more emphasis on expressing regret for sin than even in avoiding it altogether.

If recognizing where I have failed, and being sorry for those failings is what Jesus is looking for, I may be ok.

The older I get, it seems I spend more time regretting than actually accomplishing anything.

tiny1

Quote from: alienhand on July 13, 2019, 12:12:05 AM
What does everything happens for a reason even mean?  If everything happens for a reason then how do any of us have free will and control over our own destinies?  Were those who committed murder in our past, committing murder in the now and will commit murder in the future meant to commit murder?  Were those who were murdered meant to die at that particular point?

Was Jesus meant to die on the cross when he did?  Was it ordained that he would die on the cross?  If Judas had no other choice but to betray Jesus then how did Judas sin?  How did he betray anyone at all?  Didn't Judas serve his purpose?

I don't get it.  How does free will, choice, personal responsibility coincide with everything happening for a reason?

Am I misunderstanding something somewhere?

I do not recall the Bible advocating that Everything happens for a reason.  It does say God had Foreknowledge of this reality, and that He knew us from the beginning of time.
God's Will is the determiner for the reasoning of all things.  That does not mean that if you break your leg, it was to serve God's Purpose.  The REASON you broke your leg, is that you were possibly careless.
I think it inspires us to look to the positive in the event that something bad happens to us.  Sometimes, it is God's Love for us that works wonders at a time of need.  His Blessings appear to be Miracles, to us.
I do not believe in Fate.  I do not believe in Predisposition.  I believe God's way is Causal and Effective.  If you cause it, it will affect you.

Possum

Quote from: tiny1 on November 11, 2019, 01:38:05 PM
I do not recall the Bible advocating that Everything happens for a reason.  It does say God had Foreknowledge of this reality, and that He knew us from the beginning of time.
God's Will is the determiner for the reasoning of all things.  That does not mean that if you break your leg, it was to serve God's Purpose.  The REASON you broke your leg, is that you were possibly careless.
I think it inspires us to look to the positive in the event that something bad happens to us.  Sometimes, it is God's Love for us that works wonders at a time of need.  His Blessings appear to be Miracles, to us.
I do not believe in Fate.  I do not believe in Predisposition.  I believe God's way is Causal and Effective.  If you cause it, it will affect you.
:thumbup:

cynical1

Quote from: alienhand on July 13, 2019, 12:12:05 AM
What does everything happens for a reason even mean?  If everything happens for a reason then how do any of us have free will and control over our own destinies?  Were those who committed murder in our past, committing murder in the now and will commit murder in the future meant to commit murder?  Were those who were murdered meant to die at that particular point?

Was Jesus meant to die on the cross when he did?  Was it ordained that he would die on the cross?  If Judas had no other choice but to betray Jesus then how did Judas sin?  How did he betray anyone at all?  Didn't Judas serve his purpose?

I don't get it.  How does free will, choice, personal responsibility coincide with everything happening for a reason?

Am I misunderstanding something somewhere?
I have had the same thoughts. As to Judas, maybe he was destined to betray Jesus (aren't we all? we are all sinners...) but he also was destined to have the option of accepting Christ's forgiveness and he chose not to, so that was where free will comes in..

does that help?

ConservativeInCT

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 06:47:57 AM
Life is akin to a board game with certain parameters being life and taking steps to pass go and trying to keep out of jail.
There are infinite rules to simply being, even rolling the dice is like taking a chance on your next move, but you also have the freewill to sit at start and never take a risk, but then, that's not really living, that's just existing.
Stop playing the character of a coward in life and Fuckin roll the damn dice already! What in the Hell are you afraid of?

Well said. I miss the days of Alien's cowardice on this forum.

Solar

Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

Possum


Solar

Quote from: s3779m on November 21, 2019, 04:13:17 AM
No, thank you!! :thumbup: :thumbup:
One Billion to one, he's still pondering the dice as he awaits his next govt check.
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!