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General Category => Religion Forum => Topic started by: Ploughboy on August 06, 2018, 10:58:51 PM

Title: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 06, 2018, 10:58:51 PM
Does the Bible teach flat or globe earth? What is the general consensus on this forum regarding the shape of the earth as understood in the Bible?

Isaiah 40:22 King James Version (KJV)

Quote"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."


I've always known this verse speaks about a 3D circle. But atheists say this means 2D flat circle. Do atheists have any proof of this claim or is this just another assumption meant to strip the Bible of scientific truth?
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Sick Of Silence on August 07, 2018, 01:47:48 AM
Atheists are pieces of crap that just want to start shit with Christianity about the Bible but don't have the balls to attack Islam for what they say in the Quran.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: T Hunt on August 07, 2018, 04:47:16 AM
Quote from: Ploughboy on August 06, 2018, 10:58:51 PM
Does the Bible teach flat or globe earth? What is the general consensus on this forum regarding the shape of the earth as understood in the Bible?

Isaiah 40:22 King James Version (KJV)


I've always known this verse speaks about a 3D circle. But atheists say this means 2D flat circle. Do atheists have any proof of this claim or is this just another assumption meant to strip the Bible of scientific truth?

God is perfect and knows everything. He created the earth after all, and everything else for that matter. So of course God knows it isnt flat. God is also perfectly honest and just, so why would an all knowing, perfectly good God lie in his words to his people whom he loves and tell them the earth is flat when it isnt? It doesnt fit Gods style.

When ppl say that the bible teaches a flat earth, they are just projecting their own preconcieved notions, just as leftists do when they claim the bible says abortion is ok, or that jesus was a commie who hated the rich. The same is true for those who say homosexuality isnt a sin, those who say the bible supports millions of years, macroevolution, and those who use the bible to justify violence and power like the inquisition.

And of course, just as with muslims, the left judges a religion, not by what its scripture says or by those who follow it religiously,. No, the left judges religions by those who twist their respective scripture for their own ends.

Just like they twist their leftist religion to suit the political winds of the moment. For the left, the individual is his own god, and thus each individual gets to decide for themselves what is and isnt truth and reality.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Solar on August 07, 2018, 06:59:15 AM
I think it was simply taken for granted the earth was round, so when did the nonbelievers get a say? I assume it was the darkages?

In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the Earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon. [DD]

A literal translation of Job 26:10 is "He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end." A spherical Earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22—"the circle of the earth."

Note, the Biblical Hebrew word for "circle" (חוג—chuwg) can also mean "round" or "sphere."
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 07, 2018, 07:44:53 PM
Quote from: Sick Of Silence on August 07, 2018, 01:47:48 AM
Atheists are pieces of crap that just want to start shit with Christianity about the Bible but don't have the balls to attack Islam for what they say in the Quran.

Bingo. The Flat Earth movement is a mixed group of atheists pushing secular-humanism and occultists (which includes muslims).
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 07, 2018, 07:49:10 PM
Quote from: Solar on August 07, 2018, 06:59:15 AM
I think it was simply taken for granted the earth was round, so when did the nonbelievers get a say? I assume it was the darkages?

In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the Earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon. [DD]

A literal translation of Job 26:10 is "He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end." A spherical Earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22—"the circle of the earth."

Note, the Biblical Hebrew word for "circle" (חוג—chuwg) can also mean "round" or "sphere."

You're absolutely right. But for the sake of knowledge I'm gonna post a sure way to defeat flat earthers in every debate. It may be a lot of reading but it will knowledge worth learning for it will silence flat earthers quickly. I'll start with the Isaiah 40:22 Super Post.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 07, 2018, 08:03:18 PM
The "Chuwg" Isaiah 40:22 Super Post

Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere,

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon: H2329:
Quote"חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2329

The English word "circle" is the Hebrew "Chuwg," which means to describe a circle---compass, as in a compassing circle (as in a globe shape, 3D circle). It also means circuit (Strong's numbers H2328, H2329) Therefore chuwg (or khug) is used to describe a circle that compasses itself. The English word compass used as a verb means to surround; to encircle; to environ; to stretch round, while encompass (also used as a verb) is to form a circle around; to encircle. As a noun the word compass means a magnetic or electronic device used to determine the cardinal directions (usually magnetic or true north). The flat earth conspiracists reject the four cardinal directions in their flat earth model. They reject the reality that the polar regions (North and South) exist.
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

Quote"It is he--rather, connected to the last verse, Have ye not known?--have ye not understood Him that sitteth...? (vs.26) [MAUDER]. Circle--applicable to the globular form of the earth, above which, and the vault of the sky around it, above it, He sits. For "upon" translate "above." as grasshoppers--or locusts in His sight (Num.13:33), as He looks down from on high (Ps.33:13, 14; 113:4-6)."

Matthew Henry's Commentary

Quote"Now that which is here said of God is (1.) That he has command of all creatures. The heaven and the earth themselves are under his management: He sits upon the circle, or globe, of the earth, v. 22. He that has the special residence of his glory in the upper world maintains a dominion over the lower world, gives law to it, and directs all the motions of it to his own glory. He sits undisturbed upon the earth, and establishes it. He is still stretching out the heavens, his power and providence keep them still stretched out, and will do so till the comes that they shall be rolled together like a scroll. He spreads them out as easily as we draw a curtain to and fro, opening these curtains in the morning and drawing them close again at night. And the heaven is to this earth as a tent to dwell in; it is a canopy drawn over our heads, et quod tegit omnia coelum --- and it encircles all. --Ovid. See Ps.104:2 (2.) That the children of men, even the greatest and mightiest, are as nothing before him. The numerous inhabitants of this earth are in his eye as grasshoppers in ours, so little and inconsiderable, of such small value, of such little use, and so easily crushed. Proud men's lifting up themselves is but like the grasshopper's leap; in an instant they must stoop down to the earth again. If the spies thought themselves as grasshoppers before the sons of Anak (Num.13:33), what are we before the great God? Grasshoppers live but awhile, and live carelessly, not like the ant; so do the most men. (3.) That those who appear and act against him, how formidable soever they may be to their fellow-creatures, will certainly be humble and brought down by the mighty hand of God."


Henry Morris Study Bible,

Quote"40:22 circle of the earth. Hebrew khug, translated "compassed" in Job 26:10 and "compass" in Proverbs 8:27. All three, in context, clearly refer to the spherical shape of the earth.
40:22 stretcheth out the heavens. This phrase is possibly a reference to the expanding universe, as envisioned by modern astronomers. There are numerous references in Scripture to the "stretching-out" or "spreading-out" of the heavens (space) when God created the universe. See, for example, Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 42:5; 44:24; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12. Alternatively, the "heavens" referred to here may refer simply to the atmospheric heavens, spread out like a curtain or "tent to dwell in" around a circle of the earth. This atmospheric "tent", refracting and spreading light over the hemisphere, is sharply distinct from the darkness outside."
=======================================
How it was applied by the ancient church,

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.

Quote"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?" (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

Here is the English translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate,

Quote"It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Douay-Rheims Bible).


The English "circle" is meant to be understood as a 3D circle as seen from space.

I have a database on FB which covers all major verses attacked by atheists
https://www.facebook.com/AnsweringFlatEarthLies/
Title: The Forgotten Round World Verses of the Bible
Post by: Ploughboy on August 07, 2018, 08:22:01 PM
This next presentation is crushing to flat earthers because it presents lost Scripture. Yes...lost Scripture. This is no come-on either. The Geneva scholars deliberately removed much of William Tyndale's work which was translated accurately. The errs of the Geneva scholars would effect the KJV as well. Just read this and see for yourself. I have presented a few of the missing round world verses of the Bible.

The Forgotten "Round World" Verses of Scripture

All verses quoted are from Tyndale influenced Bibles, with the Matthew's Bible being the most dominant.

Psalms 89:11 (v.12 in some Bibles):

1535 Coverdale Bible,

Quote"The heaues are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundacio of the roude worlde and all that therin is."

1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible,

Quote"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."

1539 Great Bible,

Quote"The heauens are thyne, the earth also is thyne: thou hast layed the foundacyon of the rounde worlde, and all that therin is."


1568 Bishop's Bible,

Quote"The heauens are thine, the earth also is thine: thou hast layde the foundation of the rounde worlde, and of all the plentie that is therin."


Psalm 18:15,

1539 Great Bible:
Quote"The sprynges of waters were sene, & the foundacions of the round worlde were discouered at thy chydinge, O Lorde, at the blastynge of the breth of thy displeasure."

Proverbs 8:31,

1568 Bishop's Bible:
Quote"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men."


Hebrew Lexicons:

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398
Quote
"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."


Make sure to see Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8398

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

Quote"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".


New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

Quote"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."

The meaning is not lost and the lexicons prove this point for us. Even in the KJV it is speaking about the complete fullness of the world God created. But Tyndale, being the brilliant scholar he was, knew how important "round world" would be to English speaking readers, as the text does imply the whole of the earth, and its round shape (globe).
=======================================
A Breakdown of תֵּבֵל têbêl:

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth"--AND-- "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

So where do we see flat earth?
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 07, 2018, 08:45:30 PM
The Spinning Globe Post

Job 38:14, The Rotation of the earth

Quote"It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment" (KJV)

Other Translations:

Quote"It is turned as clay to fashion, and all stand up as a garment" (1599 Geneva Bible).

Quote"It is turned like clay by the seal,
and it stands out as a garment"
(MEV)

Quote"It turneth itself as clay of a seal And they station themselves as clothed" (YLT).

So it [the earth] is turning in a full rotation facing the dayspring (v.12). Henry Morris hammers this one down very well in his classic work The Remarkable Record of Job, p.40,

Quote"Job suggests not only that the earth was suspended in space but also that it rotates about its north-projecting axis. "Hast thou commanded the morning since they days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth; that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; they stand out as a garment" (Job 38:12-14). Though figurative language, this reflects a true physical process. God is pictured as taking hold of the two ends of the earth's axis and turning it as if it were a clay cylinder receiving an impression from a seal. The seal toward which the earth is turned, however, is not a metallic pattern. Rather, it is the "dayspring," evidently the sun fixed in its place."

The Henry Morris Study Bible,

Quote"38:14 turned. This figurative expression refers to God's initiation of the earth's rotation and the day-night cycle. Each night, like a rotating clay cylinder exposing the impressions of the seal, the earth turns to the sun (or "dayspring"), exposing the wicked and their works of the night."

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Bible Commentary, Vol.2,

Quote"14. Explaining the first clause of v.13, as v.15 does the second clause. As the plastic clay represents the various figures impressed on it by a seal, so the earth, which in the dark was void of all form, when illuminated by the day-spring, presents a variety of forms, hills, valleys, etc. "Turned" ('turns itself',' Hebrew) alludes to the rolling cylinder seal, from one to three inches long, such as is found in Babylon, which leaves the impression on the soft plastic clay, as it is turned about: so the morning light rolling on over the earth. Rich ('On the Ruins of Babylon') in Barnes, says, 'The cuneiform writing of these cylinder seals is reversed, or written from right to left, whereas every other cuneiform writing is to be read from left to right. This can only be accounted for by supposing that they were intended to roll impressions.' they stand--the forms of beauty unfolded by the dawn stand forth as a garment in which the earth is clad."

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, 1885 Edition

Quote"38:12-15. God's control of the earth also includes the daily sequence of dawn and darkness. The dawn causes the wicked, who are active at night (cf. 24:14-17; John 3:19), to hide. It is as if the morning light were shaking them out of a blanket (Job 38:13), causing them to be broken in their power (upraised arm, v. 15; cf. 40:9). As the sun comes up the earth's contours become evident and the wicked no longer have darkness, which they call their light, in which to work. Since Job had nothing to do with establishing or controlling this aspect of Creation how could he question God's doings now?"

The language of Job 38:12-15 is deeply figurative but the rotation of the earth can be clearly seen as well as the sun's stationary position in the solar system, making this passage stand out as a garment of light to those who seek the depth of truth which turns in it's revolution out of the darkness. This passage also helps interpret Job 26:10 "the boundary of light and darkness."

*Note: figurative language is used to capture a deeper spiritual meaning. 

Early Church Fathers on the Rotation of the Earth.

The first quotations come from 4th century St.Ambrose from his work called the "Hexameron", from The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage.

Quote"Consequently, the year, too, has the stamp of a world coming to birth, as the splendor of the springtime shines forth all the more clearly because of the winter's ice and darkness now past. The shape of the circles of years to come has been given form by the first dawn of the world" (p.12).

The circle of years. That sounds like a spinning globe to me.

This next quotation from St.Ambrose is long but necessary for this subject. Here Ambrose defines what immovable earth means while also quoting from a Psalm in which the earth is moving! Ambrose is explaining how the earth abides by the laws ordained for it by God, that it will not fall down (since it is suspended in space, Job 26:7). The earth will not float away. It is a fixed sphere and will not move from its ordained laws.

Quote"How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: 'He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,' and elsewhere: 'One again I move the earth.' Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: 'The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.' And elsewhere: 'Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.'
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. 'The earth standeth for ever,' according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because 'in his hand are all the ends of the earth.' The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? 'Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?' However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present" (pp.22-23).

Quote"However, in the circular quality of a sphere these elements are confused and lose the impulse of their course, inasmuch as a sphere is turned around in its orb and hence the elements above change place with the elements beneath and vise-versa" (p.23).

The circular quality of a sphere [Strong's H2328 - H2329]. This sphere is turned (Job 38:14). We can see how Ambrose is reading and interpreting Scripture (if indeed he needs to interpret anything).

The next citation from Ambrose' Hexameron deals with how the skeptics of the Bible claim that the earth cannot be a sphere because water could not remain on it.

Quote"And first of all these interpreters wish to destroy the profound impressions which frequent reading of the Scriptures have made in our mind, maintaining that waters cannot exist above the heavens. That heavenly sphere, they say, is round, with the earth in the middle of it; hence, water cannot stay on that circular surface, from which it needs must flow easily away, falling from a higher to a lower position. For how, they say, can water remain on a sphere when the sphere itself revolves?" (p.52).

In the next quotation Ambrose begins the paragraph with "Scripture points out", and then cites from Isa.40:22,

Quote"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?" (p.231).

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I'm citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

Quote"And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach"
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1)
.

And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth.

Clement of Rome was a 1st century Church father who was consecrated by St.Peter and mentioned by St.Paul in Philippians 4:3:

QuoteAnd I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

Clement is the first successor of the Apostles who became the Bishop of the church in Rome. Some Roman Catholics call Clement the first Pope but this is not true. They did not have Popes back then. But they did have a Bishop for each city where there was a Christian church. So Clement was the first Bishop after the Apostles.

In Clement's Epistle, we read about a round earth that rotates with people living on opposite earth.

The first quote is about the earth's rotation:

Quote"Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (Clement of Rome; Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1: "Epistle to the Corinthians," Chapter 20:2, p.22).

The next quote indirectly mentions antipodes which means he is speaking about a globe earth.

Quote"The ocean, impassible for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master" (Clement of Rome; Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1: "Epistle to the Corinthians," Chapter 20:8, p.22).

Origen explains Clement's comment here:

Quote"Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call "people of the opposite earth," and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called "worlds," when he says, "The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler" (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).

Augustine also indirectly mentions this passage in his book City of God and does not believe that antipodes exist. He was proven wrong by Columbus who validated the 1st century Clement's words on the matter.

Clement has one more round earth statement in his Epistle.

Quote"Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will" (Clement of Rome; Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1: "Epistle to the Corinthians," Chapter 33:3, p.22).

So even in the earliest century of Christ the Christians understood the Scriptures as teaching globe earth.

But even 1st century Jewish Historian mentions the round shape of the earth.

Quote"After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews" (Antiquity 1:30).

Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7). You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere. So here in the 1st century, both Josephus and Clement of Rome, refute modern liberal theology. Did Josephus know how to read Hebrew? Sure he did! He not only knew how to read Hebrew but was also a highly educated historian. So all these modern arguments which fool many have no weight in light of what we read from 1st century Josephus and Clement!
Title: Isaiah 40:22...chuwg or dur?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 07, 2018, 11:00:08 PM
The Chuwg/Dur Isaiah 40:22 Super Challenge!

So many flat earthers try to be the mind of Isaiah and say if Isaiah meant spinning ball then he would have used the Hebrew word dur which flat earthers claim mean ball. Then they go on to say that the earth is flat like a plate in the Bible and Isaiah's use of the Hebrew word chuwg means a flat plate. So lets look into this claim and see if what flat earthers say is true.

A Challenge to Isaiah 40:22

There are some online articles which ask the question as to why Isaiah didn't use the Hebrew word "dur" which carries the meaning of "ball." This question, however, is irrelevant because we cannot go back in time and ask Isaiah this question. But wait, we can, Strong's H1754 does define dur as a circle, ball or pile (or to move in a circle, surround, TWOT). The verse often cited by atheists is Isa.22:18 in which they ask why Isaiah didn't use the word dur? More interesting is TWOT's explanation of the word #418. The word was used to mean "to heap up" or "to pile something." It can be used to mean "go in a circle." But the word is more closely associated to dor (#1887, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vo.1) which is used to mean "lap in a race, cycle of time, lifetime." Nothing I had read would lead me to the conclusion that it would be used to describe the shape of the earth. I wanted to type the lexicons in but those very long explanations for the word dur. So anyone who can get their hands on the Strong's or TWOT are free to see how there is nothing in the explanation given that would lead us to believe Isaiah would use the word dur over chuwg.

My Challenge To Flat Earthers

But I have a question for flat earther: Why didn't Isaiah use the Hebrew word "machabath" (Strong's H4227)?

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

Quote"4227. machabath, makh-ab-ath'; from the same as 2281; a pan for baking in:--pan [5x]. See TWOT -- 600b; BDB -- 292b, 561d"

TWOT 600b:
Quote"flat plate, pan, or griddle (e.g. Lev. 2:5; 6:14; Ezk 4:3)".

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=nasb&strongs=h4227


Since flat earthers like to cite from TWOT, why can't they find the right word which better describes their flat plate model of the earth they designed for the Biblical view of the earth? Surely this word would have been better than chuwg? It could have been translated "...the pan of the earth" or "the griddle of the earth" or "the plate of the earth." But it wasn't. There is another word which means flat.

Strong's H8478 is found in Joshua 6:5, 20; which is the Hebrew word tachath which was used to describe the walls of Jericho "that the wall fell down flat " (Joshua 6:20). The word translated flat is tachath.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8478

So why wasn't another Hebrew word which means flat used in Isaiah 40:22? Why couldn't the verse just literally translate "the flatness of the earth"? Surely if the earth was flat and plate shaped Isaiah would have used the right word to communicate that message. The word translated circle does not mean flat as the earth is circular in shape. The definition of round carries a broad meaning in English.

Conclusion. If Isaiah wanted to use dur (Strong's H1754) instead of chuwg he would have. When we go into the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon we may see the reason why Isaiah chose chuwg over dur.

Here is the Gesenius' definition of dur
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h1754

Here is the Gesenius' definition of chuwg
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2329

The word chuwg means circle, sphere, which is a 3D circle. The word also means compass which is what a 3D  circle does.
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

The English word "compass" applied to the shape of the earth.

Proverbs 8:31,

Quote"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (Bishop's Bible).

Quote"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end"(Job 26:10, KVJ).

Quote"He hath compased the waters with certayne boundes vntill the daye & nyght come to an ende" (Job 26:10, 1539 Great Bible).

Proverbs 8:31 uses the Hebrew word תֵּבֵל têbêl which is also used to describe the shape of the earth which, like חוּג chûwg, means a compassing fullness of the globe.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 07, 2018, 11:07:37 PM
Firmament/expanse from The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.

Quote(1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautiful: (b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."

As you can plainly read the word "raqiya" does not mean solid dome.

Heaven/Heavens defined in The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

Quote"8064. [420x] Shamayin, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused sing.

Shameh, shaw-mah'; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perb. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): -- heaven (39x), air [21x], astrologer + 1895 [1x].

Introduction: Sometimes it signifies the atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth, in which the fowls of the air fly. Sometimes it is used of the space in which the clouds are floating. In other places it refers to the vast expanse through which the starts are moving in their courses. It is opposed to sheowl (7585), the one being regarded as a place of exaltation, the other of degradation; the one being represented as the dwelling place of the Most High and the angels of God, the other as the abode of the dead. It includes all space that is not occupied by the terrestrial globe, and extends from the air we breathe and the winds we feel around us to the firmament or expanse that contains the innumerable stars. This is includes, and exceeds for where our intellect ceases to operate, and fails to find a limit to the extension of space, there faith comes in. And while before the eye of the body there is spread out an infinity of space, the possession of the super-material nature brings us into communion with a Being whose nature and condition cannot adequately be described by terms of locality or extension. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The countless stars are not only known and numbered by Him, but are called into existence and fixed in their courses by His will and wisdom. Where He is, there the true heaven is; and the glories of the firmament faintly shadow forth the ineffable bliss that those must realize who are brought into relationship with Him.
(1) Shamayim is the usual for the sky and the realm of the sky (1a) birds fly (Duet.4:17). (1b) This area, high above the ground below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often a locus of visions (1 Chr. 21:16). (2) This word represents an area farther removed from the earth's surface (2a) from which come such things as (2a1) frost (Job 38:29), (2a2) snow (Is 55:10), (2a3) fire (Gen 19:24), (2a4) dust (Deut 28:24), (2a5) hail (Josh 10:11), and (a26) rain (Gen 8:2). (2b) This realm is God's storehouse; God is (3a) the dispenser of the stores and Lord of the realm (Deut 28:12). (2c) This meaning of shamayim occurs in Gen 1:7-8. (3) Shamayim also represents the realm in which the sun, moon, and stars are located (Gen 1:14). (4) The phrase "heaven and earth" may denote the entire creation (Gen 1:1). (5) Heaven is the dwelling place of God (Ps 2:4; Deut 4:39; 26:15). (5a) Another expression representing the dwelling place of God is "the highest heaven" [literally, the heaven of heavens] (Deut 10:14). (5b) This does not indicate height, but also an absolute--i.e., God's abode is a unique realm not to be identified with a physical creation. Syn.: 7834. See TWOT--2407a; BDB--1029c, 116a."


Genesis one translated properly into modern English
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=MEV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NKJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=RSV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NASB

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=ESV

Different translations, different disciplines, and yet they properly translate Genesis 1 using correct modern grammar. The KJV means the same thing but grammatical rules back then differ from what they do today.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 07, 2018, 11:16:13 PM
Job 37:18, Solid Sky.

This verse is quoted continuously by flat earthers. You cannot even engage in a discussion with a flat earther without having this verse thrown at you out of nowhere (as they will cite the verse with no connection to a discussion about the shape of the earth). They say the Bible teaches us that the sky is solid, like metal. Since flat earthers are KJV Only, lets cite Job 37:18 from the KJV,

Quote"Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"

Other Translations:

Quote"Thou perhaps hast made the heavens with him, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

Quote"Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?"
(ESV).

Quote"Hast thou stretched out the heavens, which are strong, and as a molten glass?" (1599 Geneva Bible).

Quote"Have you, with Him, spread out the sky,
which is strong and is like a molded mirror?" (MEV)
.

Quote"With Him, have you spread out the skies,
Strong as a cast metal mirror?" (NKJV).

Quote"can you help God spread out the skies
as hard as a cast metal mirror?"
(HCSB).

Quote"can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze?"
(NIV).

Well, that's it. We're done. They got us. Close down the churches! Hide in the hills! The Bible is over; disproven!  :rolleyes:

There is a very simple response to this verse. It is a very easy easy answer. I do not feel it necessary to explain whether or not there is a figurative meaning. The answer is so easy no explanation of this verse is necessary.

The answer: The narrator is Elihu.

What does this mean? It means the narrator was not Job or God and thus the narrator is irrelevant.

Flat earthers will respond: "But its in the Bible!" This does not remove the irrelevancy of Elihu's narration. His words are part of a dialogue but they do not effect our church doctrine. Now if Job or God said this then I would go into a deeper explanation. But since the narrator is Elihu there is no reason to provide any explanation longer than this one.

The narrator is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 07, 2018, 11:52:15 PM
Earth suspended in space over nothing.

Job 26:7 נטה צפון על תהו תלה ארץ על בלי מה׃

Quote"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (KJV).

Corpus of Translations:

Quote"Which God stretchith forth the north on voide thing, and hangith the erthe on nouyt" (1382 Wycliffe Bible).

Quote"He stretcheth out ye north ouer the emptie, & hageth ye earth vpo nothinge" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

Quote"He stretched oute the north ouer the emptie, & hangeth the earth vpon nothinge" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Quote"He stretcheth out the north ouer the emptie, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1539 Great Bible).

Quote"He stretcheth out the noorth ouer the emptie place, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

Quote"He stretches out the North over empty space,
and suspends the earth over nothing at all"
(NAB).

Quote"He stretches out the north over the void
and hangs the earth on nothing" (ESV).

Quote"He stretched out the north over the empty space, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

Quote"He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing" (NASB)
.

Quote"He stretches out the north over empty space,
He hangs the earth upon nothing"
(MEV).
Quote"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing" (NIV).

Quote"He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing" (NKJV).

Quote"God stretches the northern sky over empty space
and hangs the earth on nothing" (NLT).

Quote"He stretches out the north over the void,
and hangs the earth upon nothing" (RSV)
.

Quote"Stretching out the north over desolation, Hanging the earth upon nothing" (YLT).

Quote"He stretches the north over chaos
and suspends the earth on nothing" (Complete Jewish Bible)
.
======================================
Hebrew Lexicons:

The word "hangeth" found in the KJV is the Hebrew word תָּלָה.

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
Quote"H8518. תָּלָה tâlâh, taw-law'; a primitive root; to suspend (especially to gibbet):—hang [25x], hang up [3x]. See: TWOT -- 2512; BDB -- 1067d"

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament:
Quote"2512 תָּלָה (tâlâh) hang. (ASV and RSV similar.)
". . . The verb means basically "to hand," whether a utensil on a peg (Isa 22:24; Ezk 15:3), weapons on a wall ((Ezk 27:10f., both Piel: Song 4:4), or a lyre on a tree (Ps 137:2). Job 26:7 strikingly pictures the then-known world as suspended in space, thereby anticipating future scientific discovery, when it states that God "hangs the earth upon nothing." Other (more grisly) examples of the verb may be seen in Lam 5:12 (Niphal); 11 Sam 4:12; 18:10."

New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vol.4: תָּלָה (tlh), hang (#9434),

Quote". . . 5. Hanging or suspending other objects. These include harps, which are hung on poplars by the disconsolate exiles (Ps 137:2), a variety of things that can be hung on a wooden peg (yated, --> # 3845; Ezk 15:3), and the earth, which is hung by God "over nothing" (Job 26:7)."
Make sure to see Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon definition linked below and seen on the photo of this post
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8518

This was revealed to Job back in 2000 B.C. This could not have been known apart from God's Divine inspiration.

Commentary on Job 26:7,

Believer's Bible Commentary:

Quote"26:5-13 The rest of the chapter gives a marvelous description of God's power in the universe: the evaporation/precipitation cycle; the density of the clouds; the cycle of light and darkness; the storm at sea; and the stars and constellations by which His Spirit has adorned the heavens.
While Bildad stressed God's glory in the heavens, Job here dwells on His power in the depths: under the waters, Sheol, and Destruction.
Job desccribes--centuries before science taught it--that God hangs the earth on nothing (which is a poetic depiction of the earth's position and movement in the solar system).

How immeasurably above the cosmogonies of the heathen philosophers are these few grand words! In them we have as in germ the discoveries of a Newton and a Keppler. It is a great mistake to think Scripture does not teach scientific truth. It teaches all needed truth, even if not in scientific language. yet with scientific accuracy" [Ridout, Job, pp.133, 134] (brackets mine).


Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on the Whole Bible,

Quote"7. Hint of the true theory of the earth. Its suspension in empty space is stated in the second clause. The north in particular is specified in the first, being believed to be the highest part of the earth ( Isaiah 14:13 ). The northern hemisphere or vault of heaven is included; often compared to a stretched-out canopy ( Psalms 104:2 ). The chambers of the south are mentioned ( Job 9:9 ), that is, the southern hemisphere, consistently with the earth's globular form."


Matthew Henry's Commentary,

Quote"(1.) He hangs the earth upon nothing, v. 7. The vast terraqueous globe neither rests upon any pillars nor hangs upon any axle-tree, and yet, by the almighty power of God, is firmly fixed in its place, poised with its own weight. The art of man could not hang a feather upon nothing, yet the divine wisdom hangs the whole earth so. It is ponderibus librata suis—poised by its own weight, so says the poet; it is upheld by the word of God's power, so says the apostle. What is hung upon nothing may serve us to set our feet on, and bear the weight of our bodies, but it will never serve us to set our hearts on, nor bear the weight of our souls."

The Expositor's Bible Commentary (Abridged Edition),

Quote"7-8 The word "skies" is a justifiable insertion in v.7. Although Saphon means "north" (GK 7600), the verb "spreads out" is never used of the earth but if often used in reference to the heavens (cf.9:8). This imagery is continued by the words "over empty space." It is not difficult to postulate what "empty space" might be intended by Job if he were referring to a northern region of the earth where the majestic mountains rise.
Job was pointing to God's power as incomprehensible. The heavens are visible yet, they do not fall to earth; there is no visible means of support. Even the earth itself can be said to hang on nothing. That God spread out the heavens over empty space, hang the earth on nothing, and fill the clouds with water without bursting is intended to make us stand in awe. Job was boldly expressing in poetic terms the marvelous and majestic power of God."

Ancient Christian Commentary On Scripture: Old Testament XI -- Job,

Quote"26:7-9 God Suspends the World on Nothing

Rain Useful To The Whole Created Order. Olympiodorus [ the Deacon ]: "He stretches out the north wind upon nothing, and he upon nothing hangs the earth." Indeed the support of the earth is nothing but an understructure, but it is suspended and is sustained by Divine will. . . . "
  (brackets mine).

Lastly, it is important to know how to interpret the immovable earth verses in the Bible.These immovable earth verses are in connection to Job 26:7.

4th century Bishop  Ambrose defines what the immovable earth means.
Quote
"How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: 'He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,' and elsewhere: 'One again I move the earth.' Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: 'The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.' And elsewhere: 'Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.'
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. 'The earth standeth for ever,' according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because 'in his hand are all the ends of the earth.' The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? 'Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?' However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present" (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, pp.22-23)
.

Ambrose here is quoting and harmonizing Scriptures which teach us what the doctrine of immovable earth mean. It means that the earth is fixed in its position in the solar system and will not float away or fall.
Job 26:7 may of had some believers worried about the earth falling and Ambrose points out that the earth is immovable which means steadfast and fixed in position by the laws ordained for it by God Who created the earth. This answers all immovable earth verses in the Bible.

Origen (185-254 A.D.)

Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

Quote"Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a "fixed" sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way "subject to corruption" (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption."

So our sphere is fixed by the laws God ordained for it. While it is suspended in space, the earth will not fall and thus by doing so go into corruption; nor will it float away into the starry cosmos leaving us all to freeze to death. The earth is immovable from the laws God has fixed for the earth and God's will made all things during creation week "very good."
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Solar on August 08, 2018, 07:57:30 AM
Thanks for educating the atheist Ploughboy. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: T Hunt on August 08, 2018, 11:46:37 AM
Good explanation. Very in-depth. I feel like i am back in hebrew class in college again...christian college of course.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 08, 2018, 04:12:26 PM
I'm so glad you both have enjoyed the presentation. There are lots of people out there being harassed by these flat earth atheists who call themselves spirit filled Christians while impugning the Scriptures with their anarchist approach to theology. Sometimes the skepticism can weight on people which is why I have been a busy bee in getting this information out there. Its there for others to also use. I have used all this in multiple debates with flat earthers and these days I have to hunt for a long time before I can even get a debate with a flat earther since they are becoming scared now, timid to the thought of defeat, lacking the confidence in their scam. Yt 6 months ago before I launched a full scale attack against flat earth occultism they would debate anyone anytime anywhere. But after the constant pounding I've been giving them they are losing their joy in Satan and are ready to abandon the scam. But there are still plenty of flat earthers who have not felt the sting of defeat yet which is why I am still providing this information all over the world so Christians can access it any time.

I know how important it is to answer the skepticism and answer it correctly. This is an issue that had to be addressed. The good news is that once this information is out there it will officially silence the atheistic skepticism about what the Bible says about the shape of the earth etc. Also, my writing on the sun is important and not sure I posted that here as of yet. Perhaps I better do it. Now it will take a level head and clear focused mind to learn how to answer the moving sun in the Bible. So I'll post that. But first I want to post something very special  :cool:
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 08, 2018, 04:46:46 PM
Full "round world" Corpus.

There are literally dozens of round world verses in the Bible. These "round world" phrases were removed from the Bible by the Geneva scholars who blundered away their translation and every translation after that lost the round world verse. But as you will see William Tyndale was right and the Geneva scholars were wrong in what they. The round world verses were not the only translation mistakes we inherited.

Some verse numbers slightly differ from each translation. For example, Psalm 89:11 in the Matthew's Bible might be Psalm 89:12 in the Great Bible. But for the sake of ease I'm gonna keep all verse numbers in conformity to the Matthew's Bible.

1 Samuel 2:8,

Quote"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible)

Quote"He reyseth vp the poore out of the dust, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hyll: to sett them amonge princes, and to enherett them with the seate of glorye. For the pillers of the erth are the lordes, and he hath sett the rounde worlde vpon them" (1539 Great Bible).

Psalm 18:15,

Quote"The springes of waters were sene, & the foundacios of the roude worlde were discouered at yi chiding (o LORDE) at the blastinge & breth of thy displeasure" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

Quote"The sprynges of waters were sene, and the foundacyons of the rounde worlde were discouered at thy chidynge (O Lorde) at the blastynge and breth of thy displeasures" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

QuoteThe sprynges of waters were sene, & the foundacions of the round worlde were discouered at thy chydinge, O Lorde, at the blastynge of the breth of thy displeasure" (1539 Great Bible).
Quote"And the bottomes of waters appeared, and the foundations of the rounde worlde were discouered at thy chidyng, O God: at the blast of the breath of thine anger" (1569 Bishop's Bible).

Psalm 89:11,

Quote"The heaues are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundacio of the roude worlde and all that therin is" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

Quote"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (1537 Matthew's Bible).
Quote"The heauens are thyne, the earth also is thyne: thou hast layed the foundacyon of the rounde worlde, and all that therin is" (1539 Great Bible).
Quote"The heauens are thine, the earth also is thine: thou hast layde the foundation of the rounde worlde, and of all the plentie that is therin" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

Psalm 93:1,

Quote"he hath made the rounde worlde so sure, that it can not be moued" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

Quote"The Lorde is kyng, and hath put on glorious apparell, the Lorde hath put on his apparell, & gyrded him selfe with strengthe: he hath made the rounde world so sure, that it can not be moued" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Quote"he hath made the rounde worlde so sure, that it can not be moued" (1539 Great Bible).

Quote"God raigneth, he is clothed with a glorious maiestie, God is clothed with strength: he hath girded hym selfe, he hath made the worlde so sure that it can not be moued" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

Psalm 96:10,

Quote
"Tell it out amonge the Heithe, that the LORDE is kynge: and that it is he which hath made the rounde worlde so fast, that it cannot be moued, and how that he shal iudge the people rightuously" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

Quote"Tell it out amonge the Heathen, that the Lorde is kynge: and that it is he, which hath made the rounde worlde so faste, that it can not be moued, and howe that he shall iudge the people righteously" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Quote"Tell it out amonge the Heathen, that the Lorde is kynge: and that it is he which hath made the rounde worlde so fast, that it can not be moued, and how that he shall iudge the people ryghteously" (1539 Great Bible).

Proverbs 8:31,

Quote"As for the roude copase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull, for my delyte is to be amoge the children of men" (1535 Coverdale Bible).
Quote"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Quote"As for the rounde compase of thys worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be amonge the chyldren of men" (1539 Great Bible).
Quote"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

Isaiah 34:1,

Quote"Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herke thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde copasse & al that groweth thervpon" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

Quote"Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (1537 Matthew's Bible).
Quote"Come ye Heythen and heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou erth & all that is therin: thou round compasse and all that groweth there vpon" (1539 Great Bible).
Quote"Come ye heathen and heare, take heede you people: hearken thou earth and all that is therin, thou rounde compasse and all that dwelleth thervpon" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

Jeremiah 10:12,

Quote"But (as for oure God) he made the earth with his power, and with his wisdome hath he fynished the whole compasse of the worlde, with his discrecion hath he spred out the heauens" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

Quote"But (as for oure God) he made the earth with his power, and with hys wysdom hath he fynished the whole compasse of the worlde, wyth hys discrecion hath he spred oute the heauens" (1537 Matthew's Bible).
Quote"But (as for oure God) He made the earth wt his power, and with his wysdome doth he order the whole compasse of the worlde, with his discrecyon hath he spred out the heauens" (1539 Great Bible).

Quote"But as for our God he made the earth with his power, and with his wisdome doth he order the whole compasse of the worlde, with his discretion hath he spread out the heauens" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

Jeremiah 51:15,

Quote"Yee euen the LORDE of hoostes, that with his power made the earth, with his wi?dome prepayred ye rounde worlde, & with his discrecion spred out the heauens" (1535 Coverdale Bible).
Quote"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Quote"Yee, euen the Lorde of hostes, that wt his power made the earth, wt hys wysdome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discretion spred out the heauens" (1539 Great Bible).
Quote"Yea euen the Lorde of hoastes that with his power made the earth, with his wisdome prepared the round world, and with his discretion spread out the heauens" (1568 Bishop's Bible).
=============================================
The  verses all listed here were researched from the Strong's Blue Letter Bible site.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8398

Verses were checked and harmonized from the site linked below.
http://textusreceptusbibles.com/Matthews/24/51

These verses also appear in original and facsimile Bibles of those linked here. For the Psalms listed from the 1539 Great Bible you can find them in any Book of Common Prayer used by Anglican Churches. I own the 1662 & 1928 BCP and the Psalter reads just like the online version except for modifications in spelling in the 1928 BCP.

Matthew's Bible facsimiles also contain same verses as found online. So none of this is some clever scam. We really were robbed by the Geneva scholars who foolishly removed the "round world" phrases correctly translated by Tyndale. The "round world" verses I have listed here come from the Hebrew word tebel and not every verse containing the word tebel means globe. The verses I have listed in this corpus are the only words which mean the entire globe of the earth and its inhabitants. I omitted tebel verses from the corpus that did not clearly mean globe.
You will notice a correlation in the usage between tebel and chuwg, especially noted in Jeremiah 10:12 & 51:15  -- both these verses tell us the story of Job 26:10,

Quote"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (KJV).

Quote"He hath compaseth the waters wt certayne boundes, vntill the day and night come to an ende" (1537 Matthew's Bible).
Quote"He hath compased the waters with certayne boundes vntill the daye & nyght come to an ende" (1539 Great Bible).

tebel verses Proverbs 8:31, Jer.10:12, Jer.51:15 are telling us the same thing as Isaiah 26:10. These verses speak of a round encompassing of the earth's fullness -- "the globe of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22, Vulgate).
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

Each of the verses listed here are in connection to the fullness of God's creation and everything therein which is when tebel means globe.
============================================
Hebrew Lexicons:

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

Quote"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

Make sure to see Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8398
-------------------------------------
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT
Quote835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".
--------------------------------------
New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

Quote"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
----------------------------------------------------
Breakdown of תֵּבֵל têbêl:

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth"--AND-- "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."
Title: Explaining the Moving Sun in the Bible
Post by: Ploughboy on August 08, 2018, 05:10:23 PM
Explaining the Moving Sun in the Bible

One of the things mentioned frequently by flat earthers is the movement of the sun in the Bible. Youtube videos and online columns from flat earthers are plastered all over the Internet. I have spent 8 years thinking about these verses of contention. During that time I also researched those divine nuggets of truth in the Bible; and those, in which, reveal the Divine fingerprint of God in prophecy. Having spent a great deal of time studying prophecy and dedicated in prayer to the truth of these things of God, I eventually came to what I am convinced is a sound and trustworthy conclusion.
There are 3 major verses of contention but I will cite from 4 as to settle the matter once and for all now that we are centuries past from the Galileo incident. It will be worth noting that the subject of the moving sun in the Bible has never been an easy issue for Christian writers to answer. Many are fearful, and reasonably so, of facing harsh judgment from God if indeed their words be used against them on Judgment Day. And you better believe I have been nothing but cautious about my approach to this matter due to my own fear of facing harsh judgment from God if indeed my words are proven false. So many sincere theologians fear such judgment from God as I do if our words be considered false testimony against the Holy Scriptures. Therefore, I have taken the utmost care to tackle this issue to assure my soul that I may arrive to a true verdict. After 8 years of research I feel it is necessary to examine the verses of contention and to explain them in the most honest and truthful manner possible based on my knowledge of prophecy.

1. Joshua 10: 1-13


Quote"¶ Then spake Joshua to the Lord, in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stay thou in Gibeon, and thou Moon, in the valley of Aijalon.
And the Sun abode, and the moon stood still, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies: (is not this written in the book of Jasher?) so the Sun abode in the midst of the heaven, and hasted not to go down for a whole day" (Joshua 10: 1-13, 1599 Geneva Bible).


This passage has been used since the Galileo incident to prove how the sun moves around the earth....around the sphere of the earth, that is. The prophecy, coming from a lost Book of the Bible, presumably lost in one of the burning libraries of history, is hard to examine because it no longer exist. All that remains of Jasher is what is quoted in the Bible and the $25.00 forgery you can buy which contains the same account cited in Joshua 10 which proves its a modern forgery, probably a Mormon forgery. The prophecy, however, is about a long day, twice the natural length. This prophecy fulfills here in Joshua 10 and there is ample historical proofs from various ancient nations from the time of Joshua which either speak of such a day, or, as in countries like Mexico etc, speak about a long night twice the natural length. The sun that stops is only from the human perception. There are many who say that the sun stopping is an expression, and this may indeed be true about the passage. But even in the event this sun which stops in the middle of the sky is to be taken literally, as I believe is most likely to be the case here, it is not God telling Moses (presumably the author of Jasher) that the sun moves or stops, but comes from the perspective of Moses or whoever wrote the Book of Jasher. Again, the prophecy is about a day twice the natural length which was a miracle and one that God made happen. How exactly God made this happen is unknown. Perhaps God had slowed down the earth's rotation or even froze time somehow. This cannot be explained in strict terms of modern science since this miracle is one done by God.

*Note: The Book of Jasher was most likely comparable to the Psalms. Perhaps it may be suggested that the Psalm of Moses, Psalm 90, was originally preserved from the Book of Jasher?

2. Habakkuk 3:11


Quote"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the bright shining of thy spears" (Habakkuk 3:11, 1599 Geneva Bible).

Here we have nothing more than a reflection of the day twice the natural length in which Joshua was assured victory by God Who fought for Israel. Nowhere in this passage are we led to believe that a moving sun is something taught by God. Though the prophecy may refer to God slowing or stopping time for the exception for life on earth. How He did this is beyond our human comprehension.

3. Psalm 19:4-6

Quote"Their line is gone forth through all the earth, and their words into the ends of the world: in them hath he set a tabernacle for the Sun. Which cometh forth as a bridegroom out of his chamber, and rejoiceth like a mighty man to run his race. His going out is from the end of the heaven, and his compass is unto the ends of the same, and none is hid from the heat thereof" (Psalm 19:4-6, 1599 Geneva Bible).

This particular passage carries significant spiritual meaning. Now, to be reasonably fair to the passage, it is not clear if this passage is even dealing with the sun literally moving. In fact, the expression "he set a tabernacle for the Sun" seems to indicate the sun is stationary. However, if taken literally, this stationary sun goes from stationary to mobile when it is compared to a mighty man running his race. But this can also be a figurative attempt to convey the sun rising and setting, as a psalm is a poem and poems often carry figurative language. This passage is also most likely in connection to 'The Sun of Righteousness' in Malachi 4:2, which means the light of Christ will be as the Sun shining in on the darkness of the world with healing in its wings. This light of Christ, figuratively compared to the sun in verses 4-6, shall go through the whole earth with the message that brings light, healing and justice to the inhabitants of the earth. Thus Psalm 19:4 is cited by the Apostle Paul in connection to spreading the word of the Gospel:

Quote"But I say, have they not heard? Yes, indeed:

"Their voice went into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world" (Rom.10:18, MEV).

When David speaks of the tabernacle for the sun, this is to be understood as the dayspring (KJV) of Job 38:12. In Job 38:12-15, the morning light exposes the wickedness of those who walk in darkness. But in Psalm 19:5-6, the rays of the sun make their way throughout the whole earth, coming with healing to the righteous (Malachi 4:2) and condemnation for the wicked (Job 38:15; Malachi 4:1). All this is a figurative language which is there to convey a deep spiritual meaning. The sun represents the light of Truth which comes from the Son who is Jesus Christ. This is why Paul cites from Psalm 19:4 when addressing his fellow Jews. The dayspring (Job 38:12) and the tabernacle for the sun (Psalm 19:4) view the sun as stationary, according to the natural laws ordained for it if we are to interpret this literally.

So the psalm should not be taken in a literal, carnal manner, but interpreted from a strict spiritual perspective. Comparing the light of Christ to the brightness of the sun would be the best way, from the human perspective, to describe the awesome power of God's justice and salvation, as well as the burning heat against the wicked who refused God's free gift of eternal salvation.

4. Ecclesiastes 1:5

The entire Book of Ecclesiastes is Solomon's conclusion of his life's journey. The Book contains a wealth of wisdom which even today one will do well to learn from. Even though Solomon fell deeply into idolatry and embraced pagan gods and did what he pretty much wanted to do; he did, in the end, realize that in his error he accomplished nothing more than chasing after the wind. His final conclusion to the meaning of life was to love and obey the Lord and keep His Commandments. Ecclesiastes is not a Book of Prophecy, but contains King Solomon's ]personal testimony according to his own perspective. This does not mean the Book is rubbish and unworthy to be read. On the contrary, his wise testimony should be read by everyone!

Quote"The sun riseth, and the sun goeth down, and draweth to his place where he riseth"(Ecc.1:5, 1599 Geneva Bible).

While this verse has been used to describe the sun rising and setting, it has also been used to describe the sun circling the earth. This sun, as literally read, draweth to his place where he riseth. If indeed we are to take this literally, and I believe that to be the case with this verse, then the sun is circling the earth. I simply do not see any sign of figurative speech in this verse, and believe that this verse is to be interpreted as a sun circling the earth. God did not reveal to the Jews all there is to know about scientific mysteries. The Jews, including all the Biblical writers, were not gods nor were they God. They were just as subject to human err as you and I are. God revealed to them only what He thought would be of greater importance, such as the salvation of the world. It is only by God's wisdom that He did reveal some modern scientific knowledge to His servants so that we, the future readers, will know that He is the Lord. But we also must know that the Bible itself is not the object of worship as it is not God. God's servants, the Prophets, were people, ordinary people, who were chosen by God to deliver His message to the people of earth.
We must understand that the Bible was never meant to be a science textbook. The message in the Bible is there to secure our souls for a more important afterlife. Such content demands more attention than physical science. God left science up for people to discover, as God wanted mankind to explore His creation and enjoy what He had made. But many will automatically ask the question: Well if the sun goes around the earth in the Bible, what else in the Bible contains scientific errors? A reasonable question to ask. I have arrived to the conclusion, which I firmly believe is the correct conclusion, that there is only one scientific blunder in the Bible (Ecc.1:5) and that deals with the circuit of the sun. But this err in the Bible has absolutely no impact on the infallible message the Lord has given to us on earth. Perhaps, when Solomon fell into idolatry, his view of the sun was shaped by pagan philosophers of his time.
Lastly, I firmly believe that God revealed the spherical shape of the earth to Job first, which Solomon well understood, and then God delivers that message again to Isaiah. There is no question that Isaiah 40:22 is straight out prophecy from the LORD. God may have revealed a stationary sun to Job, but what was revealed could not have been understood until the modern era. So the Bible does teach a stationary sun (Job 38:12; Psalm 19:4) and a mobile sun (Ecc.1:5), depending on whether you are reading Job or Ecclesiastes. But one thing we can be certain about is how the earth is a sphere and, in the Bible, the sun travels around this sphere in Ecc.1:5 . So even an err of a circling sun in Ecclesiates proves the earth is round! I do believe God searches for humble hearts and does not like a man so proud as to believe he is above the knowledge of God.
Yes, I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God and I hold this belief very dearly and do not stray from it. My reasons for writing this section were to increase faith and not to decrease it. For when people are told for centuries that the sun in the Bible is stationary in all verses, and then see Solomon speaking about a circling sun, then the Bible student reads that, this can cause one to lose faith over something so small. Its small because it has no impact on the Message. Most importantly: Think with a clear mind and do not let your mind dwell on sensations which are demonic and unnecessary to dwell upon. The unstable mind will dwell on little things and turn little things into major issues. But the Lord wants us to keep a level head and a clear mind, and not to live in conspiracy and in constant suspicion. Just keep your eyes set on Christ and stay in the Word daily and you will be saved for your faith. But when you lose faith over little matters that mean nothing, you lose your soul for an eternity over nothing that mattered.

*Note: When I wrote this explanation I was studying the Geneva Bible at the time; during which, I thought the translation was equal to the KJV or maybe a slight tid bit lesser than the KJV. As it turn outs, the good points of the Geneva Bible do not outweigh its bad points. Fortunately, what has been quoted here from the Geneva Bible is not one of those issues the Geneva Bible fails in. So I have left the quotes from the Geneva Bible as there is no problem with them.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: T Hunt on August 08, 2018, 07:40:34 PM
Quote from: Ploughboy on August 08, 2018, 04:12:26 PM
I'm so glad you both have enjoyed the presentation. There are lots of people out there being harassed by these flat earth atheists who call themselves spirit filled Christians while impugning the Scriptures with their anarchist approach to theology. Sometimes the skepticism can weight on people which is why I have been a busy bee in getting this information out there. Its there for others to also use. I have used all this in multiple debates with flat earthers and these days I have to hunt for a long time before I can even get a debate with a flat earther since they are becoming scared now, timid to the thought of defeat, lacking the confidence in their scam. Yt 6 months ago before I launched a full scale attack against flat earth occultism they would debate anyone anytime anywhere. But after the constant pounding I've been giving them they are losing their joy in Satan and are ready to abandon the scam. But there are still plenty of flat earthers who have not felt the sting of defeat yet which is why I am still providing this information all over the world so Christians can access it any time.

I know how important it is to answer the skepticism and answer it correctly. This is an issue that had to be addressed. The good news is that once this information is out there it will officially silence the atheistic skepticism about what the Bible says about the shape of the earth etc. Also, my writing on the sun is important and not sure I posted that here as of yet. Perhaps I better do it. Now it will take a level head and clear focused mind to learn how to answer the moving sun in the Bible. So I'll post that. But first I want to post something very special  :cool:

Next you should address those who claim the bible supports macroevolution and millions of years. That lie has cost Christianity dearly over the years.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 08, 2018, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: T Hunt on August 08, 2018, 07:40:34 PM
Next you should address those who claim the bible supports macroevolution and millions of years. That lie has cost Christianity dearly over the years.

That is more of a common sense issue. Some Christian who follow the theistic evolution line of reasoning just have not truly studied their own beliefs. There are no verses in the Bible that even hint of macro-evolution in the Bible. There only true evolution nobody disputes is micro-evolution. But this common acceptance is not good enough for atheists as they want to force their beliefs of macro-evolution on everyone.

There are many professional creationists who deal with this issue daily. My friend Jonathan Sarfati tackles these issues well. There are volumes of books written by many creationists that tackle the issue head on.

But I will address the millions of years issue for ya. If, day, the 6 Days of creation week were a million years each, then theistic evolutionists have a very big Biblical problem in their theology. For the Hebrew word used for day is Yom and this same word is found in the 4th Commandment used to describe the days of creation. So here is the dilemma theistic evolutionists have fallen in. So we are to believe that the Jews were to work 6-million years before they could take a 1-million year Sabbath rest? Which is worse: working for 6-million years without rest, or doing no labor for 1-million years? No human can do this which makes the whole thing ridiculous.

Christians today need to grow a pair and stop being afraid of the big bad wolf of evolution theory. Christians today need to walk in faith and in faith learn to trust the Lord. For the Lord is very near and hears the prayers of all who call out to Him in need. Christians also, most of all, need to remember that humility is vital to our faith. Seeing some Christians drown themselves in intellectualism seems to make them conceited and then in their conceit they lose faith because it was not the Lord Jesus they accepted, but rather it was their own ego they sought to exalt. I have seem a number of Christians fall away from the faith and each time the person's ego lacked the humility to see beyond the silly skepticism they were faced with. But I will very clearly state that there are Christians who are pounded so hard with skepticism that they barely had any time to mature in the faith and sadly let go due to mountain of confusion forced into their minds.

I took on the flat earth movement because I saw the damage it could do to a person's faith. I saw how well organized and financed the movement was and how it bullied Christians all over the internet. So I dropped everything I was doing and set out to refute this menacing heresy with a fierce counter-attack with a bashing effort to deliver mate#
I did not like what I was seeing online. Everywhere I went online there was flat earth this and flat earth that. That's how you know the movement was well financed. The whole thing was a subtle Gen.3:1 sneak attack on the gullible of mind. Unfortunately, there are good Christians out there who are gullible, as God saves the feeble just as much as He saves the great in mind. I also very quickly recognized occult activity in the flat earth movement. So I mainly set out to crush the sensation of the occult by supplying the facts to all who are seeking answers to this nasty sneak attack on our faith. Make no mistake, this flat earth movement is of the devil and its an attempt to steal ecclesiastical authority from the church. Already churches all over the country are infiltrated by these occultists who we can also refer to as liberal scholars who the Apostles of Christ would have excommunicated from the church!

There were many creationists tackling this issue in the sense of refuting flat earth arguments from the standpoint of science. But I did no find any real satisfying answers to the Biblical attacks online. Time was ticking and many Christians had already lost their faith to this radical anarchist movement against the church. So I dedicated the time necessary to focus only on the Biblical arguments, knowing that the rest of the arguments from the standpoint of modern science will collapse when the flat earthers find out their Biblical arguments are all answered. At this, in their disappointment, having invested much time and money on this scam against the Bible only to find themselves up against a wall they cannot penetrate, they will disperse just as they did at Babel.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: T Hunt on August 09, 2018, 12:46:49 AM
Quote from: Ploughboy on August 08, 2018, 10:48:31 PM
That is more of a common sense issue. Some Christian who follow the theistic evolution line of reasoning just have not truly studied their own beliefs. There are no verses in the Bible that even hint of macro-evolution in the Bible. There only true evolution nobody disputes is micro-evolution. But this common acceptance is not good enough for atheists as they want to force their beliefs of macro-evolution on everyone.

There are many professional creationists who deal with this issue daily. My friend Jonathan Sarfati tackles these issues well. There are volumes of books written by many creationists that tackle the issue head on.

But I will address the millions of years issue for ya. If, day, the 6 Days of creation week were a million years each, then theistic evolutionists have a very big Biblical problem in their theology. For the Hebrew word used for day is Yom and this same word is found in the 4th Commandment used to describe the days of creation. So here is the dilemma theistic evolutionists have fallen in. So we are to believe that the Jews were to work 6-million years before they could take a 1-million year Sabbath rest? Which is worse: working for 6-million years without rest, or doing no labor for 1-million years? No human can do this which makes the whole thing ridiculous.

Christians today need to grow a pair and stop being afraid of the big bad wolf of evolution theory. Christians today need to walk in faith and in faith learn to trust the Lord. For the Lord is very near and hears the prayers of all who call out to Him in need. Christians also, most of all, need to remember that humility is vital to our faith. Seeing some Christians drown themselves in intellectualism seems to make them conceited and then in their conceit they lose faith because it was not the Lord Jesus they accepted, but rather it was their own ego they sought to exalt. I have seem a number of Christians fall away from the faith and each time the person's ego lacked the humility to see beyond the silly skepticism they were faced with. But I will very clearly state that there are Christians who are pounded so hard with skepticism that they barely had any time to mature in the faith and sadly let go due to mountain of confusion forced into their minds.

I took on the flat earth movement because I saw the damage it could do to a person's faith. I saw how well organized and financed the movement was and how it bullied Christians all over the internet. So I dropped everything I was doing and set out to refute this menacing heresy with a fierce counter-attack with a bashing effort to deliver mate#
I did not like what I was seeing online. Everywhere I went online there was flat earth this and flat earth that. That's how you know the movement was well financed. The whole thing was a subtle Gen.3:1 sneak attack on the gullible of mind. Unfortunately, there are good Christians out there who are gullible, as God saves the feeble just as much as He saves the great in mind. I also very quickly recognized occult activity in the flat earth movement. So I mainly set out to crush the sensation of the occult by supplying the facts to all who are seeking answers to this nasty sneak attack on our faith. Make no mistake, this flat earth movement is of the devil and its an attempt to steal ecclesiastical authority from the church. Already churches all over the country are infiltrated by these occultists who we can also refer to as liberal scholars who the Apostles of Christ would have excommunicated from the church!

There were many creationists tackling this issue in the sense of refuting flat earth arguments from the standpoint of science. But I did no find any real satisfying answers to the Biblical attacks online. Time was ticking and many Christians had already lost their faith to this radical anarchist movement against the church. So I dedicated the time necessary to focus only on the Biblical arguments, knowing that the rest of the arguments from the standpoint of modern science will collapse when the flat earthers find out their Biblical arguments are all answered. At this, in their disappointment, having invested much time and money on this scam against the Bible only to find themselves up against a wall they cannot penetrate, they will disperse just as they did at Babel.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Your right, thats ridiculous.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 09, 2018, 09:31:17 AM
There is actually a forum that bans Christians who disagree with theistic evolution if you use common sense arguments against them. That would be the Christianforrums site. Not hard to get band from that site. From what I have seen the atheists on that site have it made because the moderators are rigging debates there so that true believing Christians will lose each and every day. I debate this topic on that site a couple of months ago and was banned for some disagreement I had with the not so good half of the Anglicans which are apostate (I'm from the Anglican Continuum which is a minority today among Anglicans). So he corrupt Anglicans were relentless about something I said about how churches are being corrupt and I threw in the Episcopal churches as an example of corruption. This statement anger Canterbury Anglicans and they got the moderators to give me one infraction after the other over that small little statement. They banned me. But that's not all they did. They deleted the debate which was unrelated to the silly little argument which was the flat earth debate in which the atheists lost very badly. They did not delete any other posts unrelated to the argument besides that one.

So you are right in saying this theistic evolution has become a serious problem and sites like Christianforums are part of that problem. Traditional Christianity is treated horrible on that site and that would be the one site many Christians go to express their faith. But its it a spider's web of atheism there which the moderators have spun to make sure the debates always go in favor of the atheists. But worse than the atheists are the theistic atheists who call themselves Christians but deny God's power.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 10, 2018, 04:58:25 PM
13 globe earth verses in the Bible and 12 of them antedate the first recorded Greek thought of a spherical earth in 500 B.C.

Job 26:10 (2000 B.C.)
1 Samuel 2:8 (1064 B.C).
Psalm 18:15 (1000 B.C).
Psalm 24:1
Psalm 89:11
Psalm 93:1
Psalm 96:10
Proverbs 8:31 (950 B.C.)
Isaiah 34:1 (700 B.C.)
Isaiah 40:22
Jeremiah 10:12 (600 B.C.)
Jeremiah 51:15
Luke 17:30-34 (A.D. 32).

Some may include Ecc.1:6 as it is a globe earth verse in regards to the weather system. But it did not specifically deal with the shape of the planet which is why I decided to omit the verse from this list.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: T Hunt on August 10, 2018, 08:51:27 PM
Quote from: Ploughboy on August 09, 2018, 09:31:17 AM
There is actually a forum that bans Christians who disagree with theistic evolution if you use common sense arguments against them. That would be the Christianforrums site. Not hard to get band from that site. From what I have seen the atheists on that site have it made because the moderators are rigging debates there so that true believing Christians will lose each and every day. I debate this topic on that site a couple of months ago and was banned for some disagreement I had with the not so good half of the Anglicans which are apostate (I'm from the Anglican Continuum which is a minority today among Anglicans). So he corrupt Anglicans were relentless about something I said about how churches are being corrupt and I threw in the Episcopal churches as an example of corruption. This statement anger Canterbury Anglicans and they got the moderators to give me one infraction after the other over that small little statement. They banned me. But that's not all they did. They deleted the debate which was unrelated to the silly little argument which was the flat earth debate in which the atheists lost very badly. They did not delete any other posts unrelated to the argument besides that one.

So you are right in saying this theistic evolution has become a serious problem and sites like Christianforums are part of that problem. Traditional Christianity is treated horrible on that site and that would be the one site many Christians go to express their faith. But its it a spider's web of atheism there which the moderators have spun to make sure the debates always go in favor of the atheists. But worse than the atheists are the theistic atheists who call themselves Christians but deny God's power.

The one i tried was christianchat. There was a mix of right and left ideologies, all claiming support from the bible. 2 particularly vi ious ones, Dem, and ABC123, were both senior members and VERY libtarded, creating threads like "being rich is sinful" and "the trump dictatorship" i get on there once a week and just respond to their latest claims of leftism in the bible with some verses they didnt cherrypick. The left is trying to destroy the church from without and within. I dont understand how people can think jesus was a commie.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Sick Of Silence on August 10, 2018, 09:54:48 PM
Quote from: Ploughboy on August 09, 2018, 09:31:17 AM
There is actually a forum that bans Christians who disagree with theistic evolution if you use common sense arguments against them. That would be the Christianforrums site. Not hard to get band from that site. From what I have seen the atheists on that site have it made because the moderators are rigging debates there so that true believing Christians will lose each and every day. I debate this topic on that site a couple of months ago and was banned for some disagreement I had with the not so good half of the Anglicans which are apostate (I'm from the Anglican Continuum which is a minority today among Anglicans). So he corrupt Anglicans were relentless about something I said about how churches are being corrupt and I threw in the Episcopal churches as an example of corruption. This statement anger Canterbury Anglicans and they got the moderators to give me one infraction after the other over that small little statement. They banned me. But that's not all they did. They deleted the debate which was unrelated to the silly little argument which was the flat earth debate in which the atheists lost very badly. They did not delete any other posts unrelated to the argument besides that one.

So you are right in saying this theistic evolution has become a serious problem and sites like Christianforums are part of that problem. Traditional Christianity is treated horrible on that site and that would be the one site many Christians go to express their faith. But its it a spider's web of atheism there which the moderators have spun to make sure the debates always go in favor of the atheists. But worse than the atheists are the theistic atheists who call themselves Christians but deny God's power.

Been there/done that. On a non-religious/non political forum I used to be on, the moderators AND the administrators ran it like that. I swear the Off-Topic section pretty much had the same Liberal, Atheist regular assholes starting shit with bullshit thread and crap posts. Attack Christianity on what happened 5 centuries ago but turn a blind eye on what Islam did 5 minutes ago.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 12, 2018, 02:01:19 PM
Today, after church, I took the kids for a short field trip to a Satanic church. We did not go in, but I did stop the car and we got out to check out all the wood rainbow flag plaques on the church and sign, along with a rainbow mailbox -- the gay flag was found on all sides of the church in the form of wooden plaque designs. There was a rainbow bench to sit on. There was a sign in Arabic and a banner on the church with large words inviting people while saying they accept diversity and no racism. No racism means they accept Islamic teachings in the church, even sharing the church with muslims and gays.
I let the kids with me know what happens when a church is infiltrated by Satanists and what to look out for. These young kids are smart and already know Satan is subtle and accusing. That church was once a real Christian church before it was heavily infiltrated by occultists. Now this church has become a Luciferian cult.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: T Hunt on August 12, 2018, 04:14:40 PM
Quote from: Ploughboy on August 12, 2018, 02:01:19 PM
Today, after church, I took the kids for a short field trip to a Satanic church. We did not go in, but I did stop the car and we got out to check out all the wood rainbow flag plaques on the church and sign, along with a rainbow mailbox -- the gay flag was found on all sides of the church in the form of wooden plaque designs. There was a rainbow bench to sit on. There was a sign in Arabic and a banner on the church with large words inviting people while saying they accept diversity and no racism. No racism means they accept Islamic teachings in the church, even sharing the church with muslims and gays.
I let the kids with me know what happens when a church is infiltrated by Satanists and what to look out for. These young kids are smart and already know Satan is subtle and accusing. That church was once a real Christian church before it was heavily infiltrated by occultists. Now this church has become a Luciferian cult.

Thats creepy shit. You might wanna stay away from places like that or at least get check by a pastor afterwards to make sure you didnt catch any demons while in the vicinity.

While i dont believe in ghosts, as a christian, i have to believe that the devil and his demons are lurking about "like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour",l. Spiritually speaking of course.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 19, 2018, 12:23:38 AM
Quote from: T Hunt on August 12, 2018, 04:14:40 PM
Thats creepy shit. You might wanna stay away from places like that or at least get check by a pastor afterwards to make sure you didnt catch any demons while in the vicinity.

While i dont believe in ghosts, as a christian, i have to believe that the devil and his demons are lurking about "like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour",l. Spiritually speaking of course.

I'm not worried about it. I didn't go in the church but wanted to see what was on the outside of it.  I do agree that there is a major increase in demonic activity.
Title: Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
Post by: Ploughboy on August 24, 2018, 09:36:55 PM
Refuting Liberal Professors

Contextual Application: chûwg, mᵉchûwgâh, têbêl, dûwr (also machabath & tachath)


Process of Elimination: Which words and verses do not fit the context of the earth and it's shape?

1. "The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house" ( H4230: מְחוּגָה mᵉchûwgâh, Isaiah 44:13 -- KJV).

2. "He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (Strong's H2328: חוּג chûwg; Job 26:10 -- KJV).

3. "That he sytteth vpon the circle of the worlde, and that al the inhabytours of the worlde are in comparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heauens as a coueryng, that he stretcheth them out, as a tent to dwell in" (Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg, Isaiah 40:22 -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

4. "Yea euen the Lorde of hoastes that with his power made the earth, with his wisdome prepared the round world, and with his discretion spread out the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl Jeremiah 51:15 -- 1568 Bishop's Bible).

"But as for our God he made the earth with his power, and with his wisdome doth he order the whole compasse of the worlde, with his discretion hath he spread out the heauens" (Strong's H8398:תֵּבֵל têbêl, Jeremiah 10:12 -- 1568 Bishop's Bible).

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl, Proverbs 8:31 -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

5. "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 22:14 -- KJV).

"And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 29:3 -- KJV).

"Take the choice of the flock, and burn also the bones under it, and make it boil well, and let them seethe the bones of it therein" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Ezekiel 24:5 -- KJV).
-----------------------------------------------
Summary:

1. Strong's H4230 mᵉchûwgâh is used only 1x and was not used to describe the shape of the earth or the earth at all.

2. Strong's H2328 chûwg is used 1x to describe the earth.

3. Strong's H2329 chûwg is used 3x but only 1x to describe the entire earth, with the other two verses used to describe the arch or vault (curvature) of the sky.

4. Strong's H8398 têbêl is used 36x and 10x to describe the fullness of the earth and its inhabitants. I only used 3 examples out of 10 here to keep it simple and easy.

5. Strong's H1754 dûwr (aka, dur) is used 3x and never to describe the earth.
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Conclusion:

Hebrew is the context driven language. Neither H4230 mᵉchûwgâh or H1754 dûwr are ever used once to describe the earth. Together they make up 4 verses in the entire Bible. If these words were supposed to be used to describe the earth then they would of been used at least 1x out of 4 to do so.
But you will noticed how H2328--H2329 chûwg and H8398 têbêl share the same contextual application with only minor differences in overall usage. But when applied to the earth they both describe an earth which is compassing, round, circular, full, abiding by the boundary of light and darkness as we would expect from a spherical earth. The Tyndale influenced Bibles translate têbêl as "round world" or "round compass" or "whole compass of the world." These renderings give meaning to H2328 and a compassing world at the boundary of light and darkness (a globe). But têbêl & chûwg also share similar context in verses like Isaiah 40:22, Jeremiah 10:12 and Jeremiah 51:14 as the following check list shows:

✅ "round world" (Jer.51:15) "circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22) and "whole compass of the world (Jer.10:12).

✅ "spread out the heavens" (Isaiah 40:22; Jer.10:12, 51:15).

Isaiah 40:22 shares another characteristic with Proverbs 8:31,

✅ "circle of the earth" (Isa.40:22); "round compass of his world" -- in both cases the earth is the Lord's and attributed to His Dominion and Rule from creation.

✅ "inhabitants of the world" (Isa.40:22), "children of men" (Prov.8:31).

So the connection between the shape of the earth, the spreading out of the heavens, and the inhabitants therein (Ps.89:11), are clearly seen. TWOT even goes further to define têbêl,

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth."
And again it says: "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

So both têbêl and chûwg share common application.

So why not use H4230 mᵉchûwgâh or H1754 dûwr?
Well the answer is pretty obvious that they are not good word choices which explains why Isaiah used neither word in Isa.40:22.

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon does not contradict meaning. H2328 does not mean 2D flat circle while H2329 means globe. That is not how these definitions were meant to be understood. They both teach a 3D circle that compasses around at the boundary of day and night.

2000 years of theology can't go wrong.
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APPENDIX: My Challenge To Flat Earthers

Why didn't Isaiah use the Hebrew word "machabath" (Strong's H4227)?

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

"4227. machabath, makh-ab-ath'; from the same as 2281; a pan for baking in:--pan [5x]. See TWOT -- 600b; BDB -- 292b, 561d"

TWOT 600b: "flat plate, pan, or griddle (e.g. Lev. 2:5; 6:14; Ezk 4:3)".

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=nasb&strongs=h4227

So why can't they find the right word which better describes their flat plate model of the earth they designed for the Biblical view of the earth? Surely this word would have been better than chuwg? It could have been translated "...the pan of the earth" or "the griddle of the earth" or "the plate of the earth." But it wasn't. There is another word which means flat.

Strong's H8478 is found in Joshua 6:5, 20; which is the Hebrew word tachath which was used to describe the walls of Jericho "that the wall fell down flat " (Joshua 6:20). The word translated flat is tachath.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8478

So why wasn't another Hebrew word which means flat used in Isaiah 40:22? Why couldn't the verse just literally translate "the flatness of the earth"? Surely if the earth was flat and plate shaped Isaiah would have used the right word to communicate that message. The word translated circle does not mean flat as the earth is circular in shape. The definition of round carries a broad meaning in English.

Conclusion. If Isaiah wanted to use dur (Strong's H1754) instead of chuwg he would have. When we go into the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon we may see the reason why Isaiah chose chuwg over dur.

Here is the Gesenius' definition of dur
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h1754

Here is the Gesenius' definition of chuwg
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2329

The word chuwg means circle, sphere which is a 3D circle. The word also means compass which is what a 3D circle does.
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

The English word "compass" applied to the shape of the earth.

Proverbs 8:31,

"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (Bishop's Bible).

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (Job 26:10, KVJ).

"He hath compased the waters with certayne boundes vntill the daye & nyght come to an ende" (Job 26:10, 1539 Great Bible).

Proverbs 8:31 uses the Hebrew word תֵּבֵל têbêl which is also used to describe the shape of the earth which, like חוּג chûwg, means the compassing fullness of the globe.