Author Topic: Does the Bible teach flat earth?  (Read 1715 times)

Offline Ploughboy

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Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« on: August 06, 2018, 10:58:51 PM »
Does the Bible teach flat or globe earth? What is the general consensus on this forum regarding the shape of the earth as understood in the Bible?

Isaiah 40:22 King James Version (KJV)

Quote
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."


I've always known this verse speaks about a 3D circle. But atheists say this means 2D flat circle. Do atheists have any proof of this claim or is this just another assumption meant to strip the Bible of scientific truth?
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Sick Of Silence

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2018, 01:47:48 AM »
Atheists are pieces of crap that just want to start shit with Christianity about the Bible but don't have the balls to attack Islam for what they say in the Quran.
First Amendment isn't just Freedom Of Speech, it's Freedom Of Conscience.

Who made you the arbiter of morality? You are not Government but you sure are acting like one.

Online T Hunt

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2018, 04:47:16 AM »
Does the Bible teach flat or globe earth? What is the general consensus on this forum regarding the shape of the earth as understood in the Bible?

Isaiah 40:22 King James Version (KJV)


I've always known this verse speaks about a 3D circle. But atheists say this means 2D flat circle. Do atheists have any proof of this claim or is this just another assumption meant to strip the Bible of scientific truth?

God is perfect and knows everything. He created the earth after all, and everything else for that matter. So of course God knows it isnt flat. God is also perfectly honest and just, so why would an all knowing, perfectly good God lie in his words to his people whom he loves and tell them the earth is flat when it isnt? It doesnt fit Gods style.

When ppl say that the bible teaches a flat earth, they are just projecting their own preconcieved notions, just as leftists do when they claim the bible says abortion is ok, or that jesus was a commie who hated the rich. The same is true for those who say homosexuality isnt a sin, those who say the bible supports millions of years, macroevolution, and those who use the bible to justify violence and power like the inquisition.

And of course, just as with muslims, the left judges a religion, not by what its scripture says or by those who follow it religiously,. No, the left judges religions by those who twist their respective scripture for their own ends.

Just like they twist their leftist religion to suit the political winds of the moment. For the left, the individual is his own god, and thus each individual gets to decide for themselves what is and isnt truth and reality.

Offline Solar

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2018, 06:59:15 AM »
I think it was simply taken for granted the earth was round, so when did the nonbelievers get a say? I assume it was the darkages?

In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the Earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon. [DD]

A literal translation of Job 26:10 is “He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end.” A spherical Earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22—“the circle of the earth.”

Note, the Biblical Hebrew word for “circle” (חוג—chuwg) can also mean “round” or “sphere.”
#WWG1WGA

Offline Ploughboy

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2018, 07:44:53 PM »
Atheists are pieces of crap that just want to start shit with Christianity about the Bible but don't have the balls to attack Islam for what they say in the Quran.

Bingo. The Flat Earth movement is a mixed group of atheists pushing secular-humanism and occultists (which includes muslims).
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Ploughboy

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2018, 07:49:10 PM »
I think it was simply taken for granted the earth was round, so when did the nonbelievers get a say? I assume it was the darkages?

In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the Earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon. [DD]

A literal translation of Job 26:10 is “He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end.” A spherical Earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22—“the circle of the earth.”

Note, the Biblical Hebrew word for “circle” (חוג—chuwg) can also mean “round” or “sphere.”

You're absolutely right. But for the sake of knowledge I'm gonna post a sure way to defeat flat earthers in every debate. It may be a lot of reading but it will knowledge worth learning for it will silence flat earthers quickly. I'll start with the Isaiah 40:22 Super Post.
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Ploughboy

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2018, 08:03:18 PM »
The "Chuwg" Isaiah 40:22 Super Post

Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere,

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon: H2329:
Quote
"חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2329

The English word “circle” is the Hebrew “Chuwg,” which means to describe a circle---compass, as in a compassing circle (as in a globe shape, 3D circle). It also means circuit (Strong’s numbers H2328, H2329) Therefore chuwg (or khug) is used to describe a circle that compasses itself. The English word compass used as a verb means to surround; to encircle; to environ; to stretch round, while encompass (also used as a verb) is to form a circle around; to encircle. As a noun the word compass means a magnetic or electronic device used to determine the cardinal directions (usually magnetic or true north). The flat earth conspiracists reject the four cardinal directions in their flat earth model. They reject the reality that the polar regions (North and South) exist.
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

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“It is he--rather, connected to the last verse, Have ye not known?--have ye not understood Him that sitteth...? (vs.26) [MAUDER]. Circle--applicable to the globular form of the earth, above which, and the vault of the sky around it, above it, He sits. For “upon” translate “above.” as grasshoppers--or locusts in His sight (Num.13:33), as He looks down from on high (Ps.33:13, 14; 113:4-6).”

Matthew Henry's Commentary

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"Now that which is here said of God is (1.) That he has command of all creatures. The heaven and the earth themselves are under his management: He sits upon the circle, or globe, of the earth, v. 22. He that has the special residence of his glory in the upper world maintains a dominion over the lower world, gives law to it, and directs all the motions of it to his own glory. He sits undisturbed upon the earth, and establishes it. He is still stretching out the heavens, his power and providence keep them still stretched out, and will do so till the comes that they shall be rolled together like a scroll. He spreads them out as easily as we draw a curtain to and fro, opening these curtains in the morning and drawing them close again at night. And the heaven is to this earth as a tent to dwell in; it is a canopy drawn over our heads, et quod tegit omnia coelum --- and it encircles all. --Ovid. See Ps.104:2 (2.) That the children of men, even the greatest and mightiest, are as nothing before him. The numerous inhabitants of this earth are in his eye as grasshoppers in ours, so little and inconsiderable, of such small value, of such little use, and so easily crushed. Proud men's lifting up themselves is but like the grasshopper's leap; in an instant they must stoop down to the earth again. If the spies thought themselves as grasshoppers before the sons of Anak (Num.13:33), what are we before the great God? Grasshoppers live but awhile, and live carelessly, not like the ant; so do the most men. (3.) That those who appear and act against him, how formidable soever they may be to their fellow-creatures, will certainly be humble and brought down by the mighty hand of God."


Henry Morris Study Bible,

Quote
“40:22 circle of the earth. Hebrew khug, translated “compassed” in Job 26:10 and “compass” in Proverbs 8:27. All three, in context, clearly refer to the spherical shape of the earth.
40:22 stretcheth out the heavens. This phrase is possibly a reference to the expanding universe, as envisioned by modern astronomers. There are numerous references in Scripture to the “stretching-out” or “spreading-out” of the heavens (space) when God created the universe. See, for example, Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 42:5; 44:24; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12. Alternatively, the “heavens” referred to here may refer simply to the atmospheric heavens, spread out like a curtain or “tent to dwell in” around a circle of the earth. This atmospheric “tent”, refracting and spreading light over the hemisphere, is sharply distinct from the darkness outside.”
=======================================
How it was applied by the ancient church,

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.

Quote
"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

Here is the English translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate,

Quote
"It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Douay-Rheims Bible).


The English "circle" is meant to be understood as a 3D circle as seen from space.

I have a database on FB which covers all major verses attacked by atheists
https://www.facebook.com/AnsweringFlatEarthLies/
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Ploughboy

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The Forgotten Round World Verses of the Bible
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2018, 08:22:01 PM »
This next presentation is crushing to flat earthers because it presents lost Scripture. Yes...lost Scripture. This is no come-on either. The Geneva scholars deliberately removed much of William Tyndale's work which was translated accurately. The errs of the Geneva scholars would effect the KJV as well. Just read this and see for yourself. I have presented a few of the missing round world verses of the Bible.

The Forgotten "Round World" Verses of Scripture

All verses quoted are from Tyndale influenced Bibles, with the Matthew's Bible being the most dominant.

Psalms 89:11 (v.12 in some Bibles):

1535 Coverdale Bible,

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"The heaues are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundacio of the roude worlde and all that therin is."

1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible,

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"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."

1539 Great Bible,

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"The heauens are thyne, the earth also is thyne: thou hast layed the foundacyon of the rounde worlde, and all that therin is."


1568 Bishop's Bible,

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"The heauens are thine, the earth also is thine: thou hast layde the foundation of the rounde worlde, and of all the plentie that is therin."


Psalm 18:15,

1539 Great Bible:
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"The sprynges of waters were sene, & the foundacions of the round worlde were discouered at thy chydinge, O Lorde, at the blastynge of the breth of thy displeasure."

Proverbs 8:31,

1568 Bishop's Bible:
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"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men."


Hebrew Lexicons:

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398
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"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."


Make sure to see Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8398

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

Quote
"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".


New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

Quote
"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."

The meaning is not lost and the lexicons prove this point for us. Even in the KJV it is speaking about the complete fullness of the world God created. But Tyndale, being the brilliant scholar he was, knew how important "round world" would be to English speaking readers, as the text does imply the whole of the earth, and its round shape (globe).
=======================================
A Breakdown of תֵּבֵל têbêl:

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth"--AND-- "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

So where do we see flat earth?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 08:26:41 PM by Ploughboy »
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Ploughboy

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2018, 08:45:30 PM »
The Spinning Globe Post

Job 38:14, The Rotation of the earth

Quote
“It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment” (KJV)

Other Translations:

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“It is turned as clay to fashion, and all stand up as a garment” (1599 Geneva Bible).

Quote
“It is turned like clay by the seal,
and it stands out as a garment”
(MEV)

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“It turneth itself as clay of a seal And they station themselves as clothed” (YLT).

So it [the earth] is turning in a full rotation facing the dayspring (v.12). Henry Morris hammers this one down very well in his classic work The Remarkable Record of Job, p.40,

Quote
"Job suggests not only that the earth was suspended in space but also that it rotates about its north-projecting axis. “Hast thou commanded the morning since they days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth; that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; they stand out as a garment” (Job 38:12-14). Though figurative language, this reflects a true physical process. God is pictured as taking hold of the two ends of the earth’s axis and turning it as if it were a clay cylinder receiving an impression from a seal. The seal toward which the earth is turned, however, is not a metallic pattern. Rather, it is the “dayspring,” evidently the sun fixed in its place.”

The Henry Morris Study Bible,

Quote
“38:14 turned. This figurative expression refers to God’s initiation of the earth’s rotation and the day-night cycle. Each night, like a rotating clay cylinder exposing the impressions of the seal, the earth turns to the sun (or “dayspring”), exposing the wicked and their works of the night.”

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Bible Commentary, Vol.2,

Quote
“14. Explaining the first clause of v.13, as v.15 does the second clause. As the plastic clay represents the various figures impressed on it by a seal, so the earth, which in the dark was void of all form, when illuminated by the day-spring, presents a variety of forms, hills, valleys, etc. “Turned” (‘turns itself’,’ Hebrew) alludes to the rolling cylinder seal, from one to three inches long, such as is found in Babylon, which leaves the impression on the soft plastic clay, as it is turned about: so the morning light rolling on over the earth. Rich (‘On the Ruins of Babylon’) in Barnes, says, ‘The cuneiform writing of these cylinder seals is reversed, or written from right to left, whereas every other cuneiform writing is to be read from left to right. This can only be accounted for by supposing that they were intended to roll impressions.’ they stand--the forms of beauty unfolded by the dawn stand forth as a garment in which the earth is clad.”

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, 1885 Edition

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“38:12-15. God’s control of the earth also includes the daily sequence of dawn and darkness. The dawn causes the wicked, who are active at night (cf. 24:14-17; John 3:19), to hide. It is as if the morning light were shaking them out of a blanket (Job 38:13), causing them to be broken in their power (upraised arm, v. 15; cf. 40:9). As the sun comes up the earth’s contours become evident and the wicked no longer have darkness, which they call their light, in which to work. Since Job had nothing to do with establishing or controlling this aspect of Creation how could he question God’s doings now?”

The language of Job 38:12-15 is deeply figurative but the rotation of the earth can be clearly seen as well as the sun’s stationary position in the solar system, making this passage stand out as a garment of light to those who seek the depth of truth which turns in it’s revolution out of the darkness. This passage also helps interpret Job 26:10 “the boundary of light and darkness.”

*Note: figurative language is used to capture a deeper spiritual meaning. 

Early Church Fathers on the Rotation of the Earth.

The first quotations come from 4th century St.Ambrose from his work called the "Hexameron", from The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage.

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“Consequently, the year, too, has the stamp of a world coming to birth, as the splendor of the springtime shines forth all the more clearly because of the winter’s ice and darkness now past. The shape of the circles of years to come has been given form by the first dawn of the world” (p.12).

The circle of years. That sounds like a spinning globe to me.

This next quotation from St.Ambrose is long but necessary for this subject. Here Ambrose defines what immovable earth means while also quoting from a Psalm in which the earth is moving! Ambrose is explaining how the earth abides by the laws ordained for it by God, that it will not fall down (since it is suspended in space, Job 26:7). The earth will not float away. It is a fixed sphere and will not move from its ordained laws.

Quote
“How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (pp.22-23).

Quote
“However, in the circular quality of a sphere these elements are confused and lose the impulse of their course, inasmuch as a sphere is turned around in its orb and hence the elements above change place with the elements beneath and vise-versa” (p.23).

The circular quality of a sphere [Strong’s H2328 - H2329]. This sphere is turned (Job 38:14). We can see how Ambrose is reading and interpreting Scripture (if indeed he needs to interpret anything).

The next citation from Ambrose’ Hexameron deals with how the skeptics of the Bible claim that the earth cannot be a sphere because water could not remain on it.

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“And first of all these interpreters wish to destroy the profound impressions which frequent reading of the Scriptures have made in our mind, maintaining that waters cannot exist above the heavens. That heavenly sphere, they say, is round, with the earth in the middle of it; hence, water cannot stay on that circular surface, from which it needs must flow easily away, falling from a higher to a lower position. For how, they say, can water remain on a sphere when the sphere itself revolves?” (p.52).

In the next quotation Ambrose begins the paragraph with “Scripture points out”, and then cites from Isa.40:22,

Quote
“And further on: ‘Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?’ Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (p.231).

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

Quote
“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1)
.

And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth.

Clement of Rome was a 1st century Church father who was consecrated by St.Peter and mentioned by St.Paul in Philippians 4:3:

Quote
And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

Clement is the first successor of the Apostles who became the Bishop of the church in Rome. Some Roman Catholics call Clement the first Pope but this is not true. They did not have Popes back then. But they did have a Bishop for each city where there was a Christian church. So Clement was the first Bishop after the Apostles.

In Clement's Epistle, we read about a round earth that rotates with people living on opposite earth.

The first quote is about the earth's rotation:

Quote
"Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (Clement of Rome; Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1: "Epistle to the Corinthians," Chapter 20:2, p.22).

The next quote indirectly mentions antipodes which means he is speaking about a globe earth.

Quote
"The ocean, impassible for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master" (Clement of Rome; Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1: "Epistle to the Corinthians," Chapter 20:8, p.22).

Origen explains Clement's comment here:

Quote
“Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call “people of the opposite earth,” and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called “worlds,” when he says, “The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler” (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).

Augustine also indirectly mentions this passage in his book City of God and does not believe that antipodes exist. He was proven wrong by Columbus who validated the 1st century Clement's words on the matter.

Clement has one more round earth statement in his Epistle.

Quote
“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (Clement of Rome; Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1: "Epistle to the Corinthians," Chapter 33:3, p.22).

So even in the earliest century of Christ the Christians understood the Scriptures as teaching globe earth.

But even 1st century Jewish Historian mentions the round shape of the earth.

Quote
“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7). You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere. So here in the 1st century, both Josephus and Clement of Rome, refute modern liberal theology. Did Josephus know how to read Hebrew? Sure he did! He not only knew how to read Hebrew but was also a highly educated historian. So all these modern arguments which fool many have no weight in light of what we read from 1st century Josephus and Clement!
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Ploughboy

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Isaiah 40:22...chuwg or dur?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2018, 11:00:08 PM »
The Chuwg/Dur Isaiah 40:22 Super Challenge!

So many flat earthers try to be the mind of Isaiah and say if Isaiah meant spinning ball then he would have used the Hebrew word dur which flat earthers claim mean ball. Then they go on to say that the earth is flat like a plate in the Bible and Isaiah's use of the Hebrew word chuwg means a flat plate. So lets look into this claim and see if what flat earthers say is true.

A Challenge to Isaiah 40:22

There are some online articles which ask the question as to why Isaiah didn’t use the Hebrew word “dur” which carries the meaning of “ball.” This question, however, is irrelevant because we cannot go back in time and ask Isaiah this question. But wait, we can, Strong’s H1754 does define dur as a circle, ball or pile (or to move in a circle, surround, TWOT). The verse often cited by atheists is Isa.22:18 in which they ask why Isaiah didn’t use the word dur? More interesting is TWOT’s explanation of the word #418. The word was used to mean “to heap up” or “to pile something.” It can be used to mean “go in a circle.” But the word is more closely associated to dor (#1887, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vo.1) which is used to mean “lap in a race, cycle of time, lifetime.” Nothing I had read would lead me to the conclusion that it would be used to describe the shape of the earth. I wanted to type the lexicons in but those very long explanations for the word dur. So anyone who can get their hands on the Strong's or TWOT are free to see how there is nothing in the explanation given that would lead us to believe Isaiah would use the word dur over chuwg.

My Challenge To Flat Earthers

But I have a question for flat earther: Why didn’t Isaiah use the Hebrew word “machabath” (Strong’s H4227)?

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

Quote
"4227. machabath, makh-ab-ath'; from the same as 2281; a pan for baking in:--pan [5x]. See TWOT -- 600b; BDB -- 292b, 561d”

TWOT 600b:
Quote
“flat plate, pan, or griddle (e.g. Lev. 2:5; 6:14; Ezk 4:3)”.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=nasb&strongs=h4227


Since flat earthers like to cite from TWOT, why can’t they find the right word which better describes their flat plate model of the earth they designed for the Biblical view of the earth? Surely this word would have been better than chuwg? It could have been translated “...the pan of the earth” or “the griddle of the earth" or "the plate of the earth." But it wasn't. There is another word which means flat.

Strong’s H8478 is found in Joshua 6:5, 20; which is the Hebrew word tachath which was used to describe the walls of Jericho “that the wall fell down flat “ (Joshua 6:20). The word translated flat is tachath.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8478

So why wasn’t another Hebrew word which means flat used in Isaiah 40:22? Why couldn’t the verse just literally translate “the flatness of the earth”? Surely if the earth was flat and plate shaped Isaiah would have used the right word to communicate that message. The word translated circle does not mean flat as the earth is circular in shape. The definition of round carries a broad meaning in English.

Conclusion. If Isaiah wanted to use dur (Strong's H1754) instead of chuwg he would have. When we go into the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon we may see the reason why Isaiah chose chuwg over dur.

Here is the Gesenius' definition of dur
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h1754

Here is the Gesenius' definition of chuwg
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2329

The word chuwg means circle, sphere, which is a 3D circle. The word also means compass which is what a 3D  circle does.
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

The English word "compass" applied to the shape of the earth.

Proverbs 8:31,

Quote
"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (Bishop's Bible).

Quote
"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end"(Job 26:10, KVJ).

Quote
"He hath compased the waters with certayne boundes vntill the daye & nyght come to an ende" (Job 26:10, 1539 Great Bible).

Proverbs 8:31 uses the Hebrew word תֵּבֵל têbêl which is also used to describe the shape of the earth which, like חוּג chûwg, means a compassing fullness of the globe.
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Ploughboy

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2018, 11:07:37 PM »
Firmament/expanse from The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.

Quote
(1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautiful: (b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."

As you can plainly read the word "raqiya" does not mean solid dome.

Heaven/Heavens defined in The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

Quote
"8064. [420x] Shamayin, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused sing.

Shameh, shaw-mah'; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perb. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): -- heaven (39x), air [21x], astrologer + 1895 [1x].

Introduction: Sometimes it signifies the atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth, in which the fowls of the air fly. Sometimes it is used of the space in which the clouds are floating. In other places it refers to the vast expanse through which the starts are moving in their courses. It is opposed to sheowl (7585), the one being regarded as a place of exaltation, the other of degradation; the one being represented as the dwelling place of the Most High and the angels of God, the other as the abode of the dead. It includes all space that is not occupied by the terrestrial globe, and extends from the air we breathe and the winds we feel around us to the firmament or expanse that contains the innumerable stars. This is includes, and exceeds for where our intellect ceases to operate, and fails to find a limit to the extension of space, there faith comes in. And while before the eye of the body there is spread out an infinity of space, the possession of the super-material nature brings us into communion with a Being whose nature and condition cannot adequately be described by terms of locality or extension. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The countless stars are not only known and numbered by Him, but are called into existence and fixed in their courses by His will and wisdom. Where He is, there the true heaven is; and the glories of the firmament faintly shadow forth the ineffable bliss that those must realize who are brought into relationship with Him.
(1) Shamayim is the usual for the sky and the realm of the sky (1a) birds fly (Duet.4:17). (1b) This area, high above the ground below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often a locus of visions (1 Chr. 21:16). (2) This word represents an area farther removed from the earth's surface (2a) from which come such things as (2a1) frost (Job 38:29), (2a2) snow (Is 55:10), (2a3) fire (Gen 19:24), (2a4) dust (Deut 28:24), (2a5) hail (Josh 10:11), and (a26) rain (Gen 8:2). (2b) This realm is God's storehouse; God is (3a) the dispenser of the stores and Lord of the realm (Deut 28:12). (2c) This meaning of shamayim occurs in Gen 1:7-8. (3) Shamayim also represents the realm in which the sun, moon, and stars are located (Gen 1:14). (4) The phrase "heaven and earth" may denote the entire creation (Gen 1:1). (5) Heaven is the dwelling place of God (Ps 2:4; Deut 4:39; 26:15). (5a) Another expression representing the dwelling place of God is "the highest heaven" [literally, the heaven of heavens] (Deut 10:14). (5b) This does not indicate height, but also an absolute--i.e., God's abode is a unique realm not to be identified with a physical creation. Syn.: 7834. See TWOT--2407a; BDB--1029c, 116a."


Genesis one translated properly into modern English
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=MEV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NKJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=RSV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NASB

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=ESV

Different translations, different disciplines, and yet they properly translate Genesis 1 using correct modern grammar. The KJV means the same thing but grammatical rules back then differ from what they do today.
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Ploughboy

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2018, 11:16:13 PM »
Job 37:18, Solid Sky.

This verse is quoted continuously by flat earthers. You cannot even engage in a discussion with a flat earther without having this verse thrown at you out of nowhere (as they will cite the verse with no connection to a discussion about the shape of the earth). They say the Bible teaches us that the sky is solid, like metal. Since flat earthers are KJV Only, lets cite Job 37:18 from the KJV,

Quote
"Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"

Other Translations:

Quote
"Thou perhaps hast made the heavens with him, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

Quote
"Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?"
(ESV).

Quote
"Hast thou stretched out the heavens, which are strong, and as a molten glass?" (1599 Geneva Bible).

Quote
"Have you, with Him, spread out the sky,
which is strong and is like a molded mirror?" (MEV)
.

Quote
"With Him, have you spread out the skies,
Strong as a cast metal mirror?" (NKJV).

Quote
"can you help God spread out the skies
as hard as a cast metal mirror?"
(HCSB).

Quote
"can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze?"
(NIV).

Well, that's it. We're done. They got us. Close down the churches! Hide in the hills! The Bible is over; disproven!  :rolleyes:

There is a very simple response to this verse. It is a very easy easy answer. I do not feel it necessary to explain whether or not there is a figurative meaning. The answer is so easy no explanation of this verse is necessary.

The answer: The narrator is Elihu.

What does this mean? It means the narrator was not Job or God and thus the narrator is irrelevant.

Flat earthers will respond: "But its in the Bible!" This does not remove the irrelevancy of Elihu's narration. His words are part of a dialogue but they do not effect our church doctrine. Now if Job or God said this then I would go into a deeper explanation. But since the narrator is Elihu there is no reason to provide any explanation longer than this one.

The narrator is irrelevant.
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Ploughboy

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2018, 11:52:15 PM »
Earth suspended in space over nothing.

Job 26:7 נטה צפון על תהו תלה ארץ על בלי מה׃

Quote
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (KJV).

Corpus of Translations:

Quote
"Which God stretchith forth the north on voide thing, and hangith the erthe on nouyt" (1382 Wycliffe Bible).

Quote
"He stretcheth out ye north ouer the emptie, & hageth ye earth vpo nothinge" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

Quote
"He stretched oute the north ouer the emptie, & hangeth the earth vpon nothinge" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Quote
"He stretcheth out the north ouer the emptie, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1539 Great Bible).

Quote
"He stretcheth out the noorth ouer the emptie place, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

Quote
"He stretches out the North over empty space,
and suspends the earth over nothing at all"
(NAB).

Quote
"He stretches out the north over the void
and hangs the earth on nothing" (ESV).

Quote
"He stretched out the north over the empty space, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

Quote
"He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing" (NASB)
.

Quote
"He stretches out the north over empty space,
He hangs the earth upon nothing"
(MEV).
Quote
"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing" (NIV).

Quote
"He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing" (NKJV).

Quote
"God stretches the northern sky over empty space
and hangs the earth on nothing" (NLT).

Quote
"He stretches out the north over the void,
and hangs the earth upon nothing" (RSV)
.

Quote
"Stretching out the north over desolation, Hanging the earth upon nothing" (YLT).

Quote
"He stretches the north over chaos
and suspends the earth on nothing" (Complete Jewish Bible)
.
======================================
Hebrew Lexicons:

The word "hangeth" found in the KJV is the Hebrew word תָּלָה.

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
Quote
"H8518. תָּלָה tâlâh, taw-law'; a primitive root; to suspend (especially to gibbet):—hang [25x], hang up [3x]. See: TWOT -- 2512; BDB -- 1067d"

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament:
 
Quote
"2512 תָּלָה (tâlâh) hang. (ASV and RSV similar.)
". . . The verb means basically "to hand," whether a utensil on a peg (Isa 22:24; Ezk 15:3), weapons on a wall ((Ezk 27:10f., both Piel: Song 4:4), or a lyre on a tree (Ps 137:2). Job 26:7 strikingly pictures the then-known world as suspended in space, thereby anticipating future scientific discovery, when it states that God "hangs the earth upon nothing." Other (more grisly) examples of the verb may be seen in Lam 5:12 (Niphal); 11 Sam 4:12; 18:10."

New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vol.4: תָּלָה (tlh), hang (#9434),

Quote
". . . 5. Hanging or suspending other objects. These include harps, which are hung on poplars by the disconsolate exiles (Ps 137:2), a variety of things that can be hung on a wooden peg (yated, --> # 3845; Ezk 15:3), and the earth, which is hung by God "over nothing" (Job 26:7)."
Make sure to see Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon definition linked below and seen on the photo of this post
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h8518

This was revealed to Job back in 2000 B.C. This could not have been known apart from God's Divine inspiration.

Commentary on Job 26:7,

Believer's Bible Commentary:

Quote
"26:5-13 The rest of the chapter gives a marvelous description of God's power in the universe: the evaporation/precipitation cycle; the density of the clouds; the cycle of light and darkness; the storm at sea; and the stars and constellations by which His Spirit has adorned the heavens.
While Bildad stressed God's glory in the heavens, Job here dwells on His power in the depths: under the waters, Sheol, and Destruction.
Job desccribes--centuries before science taught it--that God hangs the earth on nothing (which is a poetic depiction of the earth's position and movement in the solar system).

How immeasurably above the cosmogonies of the heathen philosophers are these few grand words! In them we have as in germ the discoveries of a Newton and a Keppler. It is a great mistake to think Scripture does not teach scientific truth. It teaches all needed truth, even if not in scientific language. yet with scientific accuracy" [Ridout, Job, pp.133, 134] (brackets mine).


Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on the Whole Bible,

Quote
"7. Hint of the true theory of the earth. Its suspension in empty space is stated in the second clause. The north in particular is specified in the first, being believed to be the highest part of the earth ( Isaiah 14:13 ). The northern hemisphere or vault of heaven is included; often compared to a stretched-out canopy ( Psalms 104:2 ). The chambers of the south are mentioned ( Job 9:9 ), that is, the southern hemisphere, consistently with the earth's globular form."


Matthew Henry's Commentary,

Quote
"(1.) He hangs the earth upon nothing, v. 7. The vast terraqueous globe neither rests upon any pillars nor hangs upon any axle-tree, and yet, by the almighty power of God, is firmly fixed in its place, poised with its own weight. The art of man could not hang a feather upon nothing, yet the divine wisdom hangs the whole earth so. It is ponderibus librata suis—poised by its own weight, so says the poet; it is upheld by the word of God’s power, so says the apostle. What is hung upon nothing may serve us to set our feet on, and bear the weight of our bodies, but it will never serve us to set our hearts on, nor bear the weight of our souls."

The Expositor's Bible Commentary (Abridged Edition),

Quote
“7-8 The word “skies” is a justifiable insertion in v.7. Although Saphon means “north” (GK 7600), the verb “spreads out” is never used of the earth but if often used in reference to the heavens (cf.9:8). This imagery is continued by the words “over empty space.” It is not difficult to postulate what “empty space” might be intended by Job if he were referring to a northern region of the earth where the majestic mountains rise.
Job was pointing to God’s power as incomprehensible. The heavens are visible yet, they do not fall to earth; there is no visible means of support. Even the earth itself can be said to hang on nothing. That God spread out the heavens over empty space, hang the earth on nothing, and fill the clouds with water without bursting is intended to make us stand in awe. Job was boldly expressing in poetic terms the marvelous and majestic power of God.”

Ancient Christian Commentary On Scripture: Old Testament XI -- Job,

Quote
"26:7-9 God Suspends the World on Nothing

Rain Useful To The Whole Created Order. Olympiodorus [ the Deacon ]: "He stretches out the north wind upon nothing, and he upon nothing hangs the earth." Indeed the support of the earth is nothing but an understructure, but it is suspended and is sustained by Divine will. . . . "
  (brackets mine).

Lastly, it is important to know how to interpret the immovable earth verses in the Bible.These immovable earth verses are in connection to Job 26:7.

4th century Bishop  Ambrose defines what the immovable earth means.
Quote
“How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, pp.22-23)
.

 Ambrose here is quoting and harmonizing Scriptures which teach us what the doctrine of immovable earth mean. It means that the earth is fixed in its position in the solar system and will not float away or fall.
Job 26:7 may of had some believers worried about the earth falling and Ambrose points out that the earth is immovable which means steadfast and fixed in position by the laws ordained for it by God Who created the earth. This answers all immovable earth verses in the Bible.

Origen (185-254 A.D.)

Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

Quote
“Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption.”

So our sphere is fixed by the laws God ordained for it. While it is suspended in space, the earth will not fall and thus by doing so go into corruption; nor will it float away into the starry cosmos leaving us all to freeze to death. The earth is immovable from the laws God has fixed for the earth and God's will made all things during creation week "very good."
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 11:58:19 PM by Ploughboy »
"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is."
~ Psalm 89:11, 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible

Offline Solar

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2018, 07:57:30 AM »
Thanks for educating the atheist Ploughboy. :biggrin:
#WWG1WGA

Online T Hunt

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Re: Does the Bible teach flat earth?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2018, 11:46:37 AM »
Good explanation. Very in-depth. I feel like i am back in hebrew class in college again...christian college of course.

 

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