Conservative Political Forum

General Category => Religion Forum => Topic started by: The Fallen on February 07, 2013, 05:32:45 AM

Title: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: The Fallen on February 07, 2013, 05:32:45 AM
Matthew 7:12

A command based on words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount: "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." The Mosaic law contains a parallel commandment: "Whatever is hurtful to you, do not do to any other person."

Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Yawn on February 07, 2013, 04:44:25 PM
So what is your point? Do you think some would argue with that?
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: simpsonofpg on March 07, 2013, 01:49:03 PM
We have been told to treat our neighbors and we would outselves.  The problem arises when we start picking our neighbors.  We select who we will treat fairly and exclude others.  When I do that I am not obey Gods will for me.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: anti-American on March 07, 2013, 06:11:37 PM
Quote from: The Fallen on February 08, 2013, 07:00:20 AM
My point is to make me and others remember we should love the Lord our God with all our heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind and never forget that this is the first and great commandment.

Treating other people the way you would want to be treated is a great moral principle that everyone should [be able to] live by. But unless everyone abides by it, nobody can in every situation--it is downright impractical. How is a judge supposed to sentence a criminal to prison living by this principle? How is a professor supposed to give any student a grade lower than an "A" on any assignment?

[/quote]
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: JustKari on March 08, 2013, 05:33:20 AM
Quote from: American on March 07, 2013, 06:11:37 PM
Treating other people the way you would want to be treated is a great moral principle that everyone should [be able to] live by. But unless everyone abides by it, nobody can in every situation--it is downright impractical. How is a judge supposed to sentence a criminal to prison living by this principle? How is a professor supposed to give any student a grade lower than an "A" on any assignment?

Easy.  It's called honesty.  In order to live this way, you must be able to put yourself in the shoes of the other person.  A good professor does not assume that ever student would write the same paper ad he, but asks if I wrote this pape, how would I have wanted to be graded?  The same with a judge, a judge has to ask how he would want to be judged if he committed the crime he is judging.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: anti-American on March 08, 2013, 09:29:38 AM
Quote from: JustKari on March 08, 2013, 05:33:20 AM
Easy.  It's called honesty.  In order to live this way, you must be able to put yourself in the shoes of the other person.  A good professor does not assume that ever student would write the same paper ad he, but asks if I wrote this pape, how would I have wanted to be graded?  The same with a judge, a judge has to ask how he would want to be judged if he committed the crime he is judging.

But the problem is that if the judge committed the crime, he would want to be adjudicated as not guilty and set free. Nobody in their right mind wants to go to prison even if they know that is what they deserve.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Solar on March 08, 2013, 10:10:36 AM
Quote from: American on March 08, 2013, 09:29:38 AM
But the problem is that if the judge committed the crime, he would want to be adjudicated as not guilty and set free. Nobody in their right mind wants to go to prison even if they know that is what they deserve.
So law plays no part in his decision? You do realize we have minimum sentencing laws, right?
So regardless of his personal belief system, he is still obligated under the law to lay down a sentence delegated by jurisprudence.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: anti-American on March 08, 2013, 10:43:01 AM
Quote from: Solar on March 08, 2013, 10:10:36 AM
So law plays no part in his decision? You do realize we have minimum sentencing laws, right?
So regardless of his personal belief system, he is still obligated under the law to lay down a sentence delegated by jurisprudence.

Some statutes do indeed specify a minimum and/or maximum sentence for a person convicted of a given crime. Of course a judge should always base his decision on the law. But my point was that the judge would not be dispensing justice or, in some cases, abiding by sentencing statutes, if he followed the golden rule when sentencing criminals.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Yawn on March 08, 2013, 04:31:20 PM
Quote from: American on March 07, 2013, 06:11:37 PM
Treating other people the way you would want to be treated is a great moral principle that everyone should [be able to] live by. But unless everyone abides by it, nobody can in every situation--it is downright impractical. How is a judge supposed to sentence a criminal to prison living by this principle? How is a professor supposed to give any student a grade lower than an "A" on any assignment?

The "golden rule" doesn't apply to States. It is for INDIVIDUALS.  There was an excellent article in Wake Up! (http://www.britishisrael.co.uk/national_faith/17.pdf) magazine, years ago called "No State Right to Forgive."  When someone violates the rights of others, there MUST be consequences. "Mercy" can have a part in justice, but it is not the same as the Golden Rule.

QuoteThe State function is to exercise its powers of restraint, its function is
negative. It is the Church which has the positive office of reform through
instruction in the keeping of the Divine Law. The responsibilities of the
two powers are clearly defined. The State has no more ability to reform
sinners that the Church has to apprehend thieves. When the State
abandons its limited function of punishing evil and takes upon itself the
responsibility for reforming criminals it becomes derelict in its Divinely
ordained duty and can only end up by doing neither effectively.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Solar on March 08, 2013, 08:30:12 PM
Quote from: American on March 08, 2013, 10:43:01 AM
Some statutes do indeed specify a minimum and/or maximum sentence for a person convicted of a given crime. Of course a judge should always base his decision on the law. But my point was that the judge would not be dispensing justice or, in some cases, abiding by sentencing statutes, if he followed the golden rule when sentencing criminals.
I'm not sure whether you're trying to convince me, or yourself that the golden rule is bad.
This has to be the silliest stance I've ever seen taken, it's like claiming that people who believe in the rule, should never fight back against tyranny.

I believe in the Golder rule, but like most, I will treat you no better than you treat me.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, and expect retaliation.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: kramarat on March 09, 2013, 04:43:51 AM
Here's something similiar that is often misunderstood.

http://www.cfirecm.com/QandA/Judge%20Not%20Lest%20Ye%20Be%20Judged.htm (http://www.cfirecm.com/QandA/Judge%20Not%20Lest%20Ye%20Be%20Judged.htm)
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Yawn on March 10, 2013, 06:09:26 AM
Quote from: kramarat on March 09, 2013, 04:43:51 AM
Here's something similiar that is often misunderstood.

http://www.cfirecm.com/QandA/Judge%20Not%20Lest%20Ye%20Be%20Judged.htm (http://www.cfirecm.com/QandA/Judge%20Not%20Lest%20Ye%20Be%20Judged.htm)

This is good. I was going to post on this topic in a separate thread.  People try to use this scripture to silence me for criticizing DOCTRINE some believe in such as "Heaven as the reward of the saved", the belief in an immortal soul, Sunday as a sanctified day etc....

Beyond what the article said (100% correct as far as it went), what Yeshua was REALLY saying, was better translated CONDEMN NOT (as in don't judge that Chavez. or Hitler is burning in Hell), Lest YOU be condemned by your Creator by the same standard.

We are to JUDGE right & wrong, good& evil, but we must not decide for ourselves another human being's ULTIMATE fate. As the saying goes, God isn't finished with me (or you) yet--even unto the first death.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: kramarat on March 10, 2013, 06:37:35 AM
Quote from: Yawn on March 10, 2013, 06:09:26 AM
This is good. I was going to post on this topic in a separate thread.  People try to use this scripture to silence me for criticizing DOCTRINE some believe in such as "Heaven as the reward of the saved", the belief in an immortal soul, Sunday as a sanctified day etc....

Beyond what the article said (100% correct as far as it went), what Yeshua was REALLY saying, was better translated CONDEMN NOT (as in don't judge that Chavez. or Hitler is burning in Hell), Lest YOU be condemned by your Creator by the same standard.

We are to JUDGE right & wrong, good& evil, but we must not decide for ourselves another human being's ULTIMATE fate. As the saying goes, God isn't finished with me (or you) yet--even unto the first death.

We shouldn't confuse open disagreement, (or even the occasional argument), with judgement; nor should any of us attempt to completely shut out opposing opinions. All of us believe we are "right" on certain issues; believing we are right, doesn't necessarily make it so. :wink:

Yes, judging a person and their actions, is different from passing judgement on people; that is ultimately between them and God. Although, even that isn't entirely true. We have man's laws that meet out justice on certain individuals, and it ranges from fines, to imprisonment, to the death penalty. Without these laws, society would spin out of control.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: anti-American on March 10, 2013, 02:48:47 PM
Quote from: Solar on March 08, 2013, 08:30:12 PM
I'm not sure whether you're trying to convince me, or yourself that the golden rule is bad.
This has to be the silliest stance I've ever seen taken, it's like claiming that people who believe in the rule, should never fight back against tyranny.

I believe in the Golder rule, but like most, I will treat you no better than you treat me.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, and expect retaliation.

I'm not trying to convince you that the Golden Rule is bad. I'm merely pointing out how imperfect it is. Ideally, we should be able to come up with one intuitive moral rule that always applies and does not leave any immoral conduct ungoverned.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Solar on March 10, 2013, 02:55:02 PM
Quote from: American on March 10, 2013, 02:48:47 PM
I'm not trying to convince you that the Golden Rule is bad. I'm merely pointing out how imperfect it is. Ideally, we should be able to come up with one intuitive moral rule that always applies and does not leave any immoral conduct ungoverned.
Moral relativism is what you're suggesting, and once society collapses, morals have collapsed as well.

That's why the Golden Rule has stood the test of time, it's also why I know if I say hello to someone, I can expect the same courtesy in return.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: kramarat on March 10, 2013, 03:33:52 PM
Quote from: Solar on March 10, 2013, 02:55:02 PM
Moral relativism is what you're suggesting, and once society collapses, morals have collapsed as well.

That's why the Golden Rule has stood the test of time, it's also why I know if I say hello to someone, I can expect the same courtesy in return.

Quite frankly, it's already been solved.

I was talking to friend of mine today, that leans atheist, and he agreed that the ten commandments are not a bad set of standards to live by, Christian or not.

Combine the ten commandments with the US constitution and bill of rights, and you've got about the best system that humans have ever come up with. For people to actively be working to take them apart, (including our president), is an exercise in stupidity.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Solar on March 10, 2013, 04:23:17 PM
Quote from: kramarat on March 10, 2013, 03:33:52 PM
Quite frankly, it's already been solved.

I was talking to friend of mine today, that leans atheist, and he agreed that the ten commandments are not a bad set of standards to live by, Christian or not.

Combine the ten commandments with the US constitution and bill of rights, and you've got about the best system that humans have ever come up with. For people to actively be working to take them apart, (including our president), is an exercise in stupidity.
Of course, but you'll never convince a lib of that.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Yawn on March 10, 2013, 06:35:24 PM
Quote from: kramarat on March 10, 2013, 03:33:52 PM
Quite frankly, it's already been solved.

I was talking to friend of mine today, that leans atheist, and he agreed that the ten commandments are not a bad set of standards to live by, Christian or not.

You mean the LAST HALF. They utterly reject the first 4 (expressed by Yeshua as the Great Commandment, You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind:

1) You shall have no other gods before Me
2) You shall not make any graven image...You shall not bow down to them nor serve them
3) You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain
4) Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shall you labor and do all your work, but the SEVENTH DAY is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall not do any work.

Heck, most "christians" reject several of these.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: kramarat on March 11, 2013, 04:10:36 AM
Quote from: Yawn on March 10, 2013, 06:35:24 PM
You mean the LAST HALF. They utterly reject the first 4 (expressed by Yeshua as the Great Commandment, You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind:

1) You shall have no other gods before Me
2) You shall not make any graven image...You shall not bow down to them nor serve them
3) You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain
4) Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shall you labor and do all your work, but the SEVENTH DAY is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall not do any work.

Heck, most "christians" reject several of these.

#4 definitely gets bent pretty often. Even my wife's Dad, a retired surgeon, and very devout Christian, had to work on Sundays sometimes. In today's times, there would be no way that everyone could adhere to #4, even if they wanted to.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: supsalemgr on March 11, 2013, 05:13:11 AM
Let's not forget the Jews became really upset with Jesus for healing on the sabbath. Personally, I believe it is up to the individual to determine which day is the sabbath in today's world.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Yawn on March 11, 2013, 05:27:11 PM
Quote from: supsalemgr on March 11, 2013, 05:13:11 AM
Let's not forget the Jews became really upset with Jesus for healing on the sabbath. Personally, I believe it is up to the individual to determine which day is the sabbath in today's world.
It's up to God. He made it clear WHICH day He sanctified and commands a holy convocation. Of course He gives every human being free will and the ability to twist scripture to their own destruction (http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Peter%203%3A16).
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: supsalemgr on March 12, 2013, 05:48:06 AM
Quote from: Yawn on March 11, 2013, 05:27:11 PM
It's up to God. He made it clear WHICH day He sanctified and commands a holy convocation. Of course He gives every human being free will and the ability to twist scripture to their own destruction (http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Peter%203%3A16).

Which day is it and where is that found?
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: kramarat on March 12, 2013, 06:20:13 AM
Quote from: supsalemgr on March 12, 2013, 05:48:06 AM
Which day is it and where is that found?

That's a good question; and not easily answered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity)

As far as making Sunday the rule, it looks like the honors go to the Roman emperor Constantine, and the Catholic church.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Solar on March 12, 2013, 06:32:28 AM
I get a kick out of the way these threads quickly morph into something completely irrelevant.
To think God is going to actually punish someone for not taking a break during the week is ludicrous.

What about the poor village that worked all summer in the fields, taking only the Sabbath for rest, only to lose their crop to an infestation of locust.

Now would God punish those for working through the Sabbath so they can survive winter, or reward those that went above and beyond to help his neighbors survive the winter, all the while ignoring the Sabbath?

I find strict adherence to any Religion ignorant of God's will, and an insult to his gift of life.

Religion was always meant as a guide to life's principles, never a barrier to living one's life.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: kramarat on March 12, 2013, 07:10:20 AM
Quote from: Solar on March 12, 2013, 06:32:28 AM
I get a kick out of the way these threads quickly morph into something completely irrelevant.
To think God is going to actually punish someone for not taking a break during the week is ludicrous.

What about the poor village that worked all summer in the fields, taking only the Sabbath for rest, only to lose their crop to an infestation of locust.

Now would God punish those for working through the Sabbath so they can survive winter, or reward those that went above and beyond to help his neighbors survive the winter, all the while ignoring the Sabbath?

I find strict adherence to any Religion ignorant of God's will, and an insult to his gift of life.

Religion was always meant as a guide to life's principles, never a barrier to living one's life.

I don't adhere to any specific religion, simply due to the hypocrisy within them, and the disagreements that erupt between them, over the same Bible. It's still interesting to take a look at these things in their historical context though.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: supsalemgr on March 12, 2013, 08:48:45 AM
Quote from: Solar on March 12, 2013, 06:32:28 AM
I get a kick out of the way these threads quickly morph into something completely irrelevant.
To think God is going to actually punish someone for not taking a break during the week is ludicrous.

What about the poor village that worked all summer in the fields, taking only the Sabbath for rest, only to lose their crop to an infestation of locust.

Now would God punish those for working through the Sabbath so they can survive winter, or reward those that went above and beyond to help his neighbors survive the winter, all the while ignoring the Sabbath?

I find strict adherence to any Religion ignorant of God's will, and an insult to his gift of life.

Religion was always meant as a guide to life's principles, never a barrier to living one's life.

Exactly. That was my point. Thanks.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: Solar on March 12, 2013, 09:26:59 AM
Quote from: supsalemgr on March 12, 2013, 08:48:45 AM
Exactly. That was my point. Thanks.
And I agreed which is why I expanded upon you point.
I have no problem with Religion in general, it's the zealots I take issue with, or political systems that masquerade as Religion.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: supsalemgr on March 12, 2013, 09:58:09 AM
Quote from: Solar on March 12, 2013, 09:26:59 AM
And I agreed which is why I expanded upon you point.
I have no problem with Religion in general, it's the zealots I take issue with, or political systems that masquerade as Religion.

I usually try to stay away from religeous threads because too many times religeon is used as a tool to push other agendas.
Title: Re: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You
Post by: kramarat on March 12, 2013, 10:03:55 AM
I think the point of that commandment, is for us to take time out and remember that it's about God, and not to allow work to supplant God, as the center of our lives.

It ties in with the first three:

1) You shall have no other gods before Me:
There is only one God.


2) You shall not make any graven image...You shall not bow down to them nor serve them:
This can be money, gold, or a host of other things or people.

3) You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain:
Blasphemy; but also, don't be praying for things that don't matter. Like praying for a faster car or a nicer house.