Author Topic: Disgusting Christianity.  (Read 617 times)

Offline Hoofer

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Disgusting Christianity.
« on: July 21, 2017, 05:16:54 PM »
Back in the 1980's ... There was a meeting of those who ran Christian Bulletin Board Systems, and Ministries to Cults had a meeting in at this event, put on by JPUSA (Jesus People USA), a commune based in Chicago, IL.  Glenn and Wendy Kaiser (REZ Band) were one of the lead acts.   Yes, it was Metal & Punk.  It was the first and only time someone tried to get so many in Christian Ministries together, a look at the pictures barely tells the story...   Something like a "christian woodstock" ... if there could be such a thing.  I thought this thing was long gone, guess not.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/21/audiofeed-christian-rock-music-festival-illinois


Craziness ...?   you decide.

(.... sorry, Ephesians 2:8-9 says otherwise, and Jesus frequently chastised unbelief or doubt... but it gets worst for you, )

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Revelation 21:7-8  "7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." 

No.. really in essence, he has no faith, and will perish with the worst of the worst of humanity.

Quote
A fan takes a selfie with Christian metal band Grave Robber.


These few pictures hardly capture the event we witnessed in the late 1980's.   IMO, there's nothing represented at this event that even comes close to Biblical Christianity, and I'd venture to say the Word of God is either absent or completely out-of-context.
Some called it an "expression of their faith" - try to find that in the Bible.  Jesus did ask, 'when the Son of Man returns, would He find faith?"
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 04:03:51 PM »
If they practiced real Christianity, --- with their God's laws, --- most Christians would be in jail.

Yahweh is quite the prick.

Regards
DL

Offline SVPete

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2017, 07:34:07 PM »
Back in the 1980's ... There was a meeting of those who ran Christian Bulletin Board Systems, and Ministries to Cults had a meeting in at this event, put on by JPUSA (Jesus People USA), a commune based in Chicago, IL.  Glenn and Wendy Kaiser (REZ Band) were one of the lead acts.   Yes, it was Metal & Punk.  It was the first and only time someone tried to get so many in Christian Ministries together, a look at the pictures barely tells the story...   Something like a "christian woodstock" ... if there could be such a thing.  I thought this thing was long gone, guess not.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/21/audiofeed-christian-rock-music-festival-illinois
....


These few pictures hardly capture the event we witnessed in the late 1980's.   ...

Ummmmmm ... if these pictures are from a 1980s event, what's a 2000 or later camera phone doing there?

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It was the first and only time someone tried to get so many in Christian Ministries together ...

Christian music festivals are hardly unique. Celebration Concerts started doing large scale events in 1979 and started the annual Spirit West Coast events in 1997. Also in 1979 was Jesus West Coast, held in Chico,CA (I was there).

Besides buying into The Guardian's ignorance and at least one jaw-dropping anachronism, I think you've mixed up style and substance. Having been at the concerts of quite a few artists of the time (including Resurrection Band, later called Rez Band), and having played in several local bands in the 1970s, I can say with confidence and first-hand knowledge, the substance is there. To be blunt, I doubt anyone at the Guardian - a very liberal UK newspaper - would recognize substance if they saw and heard it.
SVPete

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Offline Solar

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2017, 06:05:33 AM »

Not really following the point here, but both your posts spurred an old curiosity I've had for decads.
Back in the very early 70s, 72? my girlfriend drug me to her church, a Pentecostal group of mostly an elderly congregation, where a new sensation that had been taking place for the last few years, Christian rock.

Here's what puzzles me, the band was called Striper, or as Wiki shows it, Stryper, but claims the band only started in the 80s with the burgeoning movement.
I remember the music was at best, OK, though I never was a hard rocker, they all wore black and white striped outfits (or was that yellow and white), the audience was polite, with not more than 30 young people in the pews.

Question is, does anyone else remember this group and its history?
While searching, I found this article on the bands of the 80s, and distinctly remember this discussion in bible study over the fact the movement was packed full of frauds, using the genre to make money and break into music.
Looks like we were right. The reason for this discussion was to try and find an actual Christian group to play at a venue being put on.
I left the church before the decision when the Pastor got caught cheating on his wife.

http://www.av1611.org/crock/crockex3.html

EDIT:
Admittedly, I only read the first few reviews, but decided to read further after posting. :rolleyes:
I found this odd post, claiming Disco attracted fags, gave them a place to congregate. Really? This is like claiming cars are evil because gave fags the ability to congregate and have yet even larger orgies.

Hell, maybe they just liked the drag queen costumes of the 80s the entertainers wore. :lol:

NEWSBOYS •
The award for the most nauseating display of spiritual blindness easily goes to Jody Davis of the Newsboys. Davis says of their album, Love Liberty Disco,

“Back in the 70’s when disco originated, the people who were into that would go to these clubs looking for love and acceptance. That’s something we have in the Church...” (Release, April/May 2000, p. 24)
Discos were homosexual hell-holes of filth and perversion. Here is how secular writers describe “discos”:

Disco music is a “call for gays to come out of the closet.”
(Newsweek, April 2, 1979 p. 63)
“For the heyday of disco was also the heyday of recklessness in the gay male life-style. . . it cannot be denied that many gay men saw disco as the theme music of their collective orgy…” (Hole in our Soul, p.281)
“A 1980 handbook for would-be disco proprietors, describes discos as a pleasure palace where the public can ‘abandon themselves to the tidal wave of raw animal emotions that engulfs them’” (Ibid, p.281)
And Davis of the Newsboys likens the homosexual disco to the church!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 06:20:27 AM by Solar »
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2017, 07:49:50 AM »
The W'pedia article seems reasonably well sourced. I know Petra played small churches on at least one of their mid-late 70s tours (I heard them in a small Four Square church that met in a house.

By the mid 1980s I had married and had 3 young kids, who we planned to (and did) homeschool. So Stryper was at a time when I wasn't buying records and going to concerts.
SVPete

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Offline SVPete

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2017, 10:35:27 AM »
Solar, I just looked at that webpage you linked, and just from the very brief first entry I can tell it's painfully and tendentiously careless of facts, at best. Family stuff will probably force me to split my comments over two posts.

Some context - that source and me (I'm a charter member of Over-Explainers Annoymorous):

The source looks to be a Fundamentalist site. I was pretty sure of that from just the url. I am not a Fundamentalist, but do not use the term "Fundamentalist" pejoratively, and I try to use it accurately. I know a little of the history of the Fundamentalist Movement, and respect them. Among Fundamentalists there are some tendencies/quirks (I'm not sure how best to describe what I mean). One of those, that is reflected in the url, is a rejection of all modern English translations of the Bible, and acceptance of only the King James Version. Some go so far as to teach that the King James Version translation was divinely inspired. Another is an utter rejection of music more rocky than Perry Como or Glen Miller. That site and page is along those lines.

I respectfully disagree with Fundamentalists of that type. OTOH, they probably would think I'm bound for an unpleasant eternity.
SVPete

Envy is Greed's bigger, more evil, twin.

Those who can, do.
Those who know, teach.
Ignorant incapables, regulate.

Offline Solar

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2017, 12:30:45 PM »
Solar, I just looked at that webpage you linked, and just from the very brief first entry I can tell it's painfully and tendentiously careless of facts, at best. Family stuff will probably force me to split my comments over two posts.

Some context - that source and me (I'm a charter member of Over-Explainers Annoymorous):

The source looks to be a Fundamentalist site. I was pretty sure of that from just the url. I am not a Fundamentalist, but do not use the term "Fundamentalist" pejoratively, and I try to use it accurately. I know a little of the history of the Fundamentalist Movement, and respect them. Among Fundamentalists there are some tendencies/quirks (I'm not sure how best to describe what I mean). One of those, that is reflected in the url, is a rejection of all modern English translations of the Bible, and acceptance of only the King James Version. Some go so far as to teach that the King James Version translation was divinely inspired. Another is an utter rejection of music more rocky than Perry Como or Glen Miller. That site and page is along those lines.

I respectfully disagree with Fundamentalists of that type. OTOH, they probably would think I'm bound for an unpleasant eternity.
Yeah, I didn't read much into it, more as a way of pointing out that many artists moved to the Christian music movement, not because they were Christian, but for audience and profit.
Myself? I don't really care, I'm not religious in any sense of the word, not a follower of any organized group, though I fully respect those that believe, be it Jew, Christian or Mormon, or Jehovah Witness, it's following one's faith that counts more than anything for me.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2017, 01:01:10 PM »
So, here is the first entry on that page, ready for some fisking:

Quote
1 In 1971, 2 the first Christian rock album was recorded, titled “Come to the Waters” by the group Children of the Day. Led by singer 3 Marsha Stevens, her song “For Those Tears I Died” was the spark that ignited the CCM wildfire.

Dr. Mark Powell, author of An Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music, writes, “[Marsha] certainly deserves to be known as ‘the mother of contemporary Christian music’”. (p.870) 4 CCM’s “Mother” is also a militant lesbian. Marsha started the spiritually perverted group B.A.L.M. (Born Again Lesbian Music).

1 Yes, "Come to the Waters" was recorded by the Children of the Day in 1971, it included "For Those Tears I Died", which was written by Marsha Carter (more about that shortly). To say Marsha Carter was the leader of COTD is an exaggeration at best. It was more of a partnership with her sister Wendy and friends Peter Jacobs and Russ Stevens.

2 The original Maranatha! Records catalog number for "Come to the Waters" was "HS777/2" (Yes, they do have doctors for people who remember this). That number "2" means what it suggests. "Come to the Waters" was the second album released by Maranatha! Records, the first being an anthology titled, "The Everlastin' Living Jesus Music Concert" (aka "Maranatha 1). So CttW was not even the first album released by the Maranatha label. On Light Records, Andrae Crouch and the Disciples released, "Take the Message Everywhere" in 1969 and "Keep On Singin'" in 1971. On Dimension Records, the eponymous record "Harvest Flight" and Phoenix Sonshine's "Shinin' In The Light" were released in 1971. If anyone should be called the "Father" of Christian rock, it might be Larry Norman, who released "Upon This Rock" in 1969. and "Bootleg" in 1970. An album by the Spokane group, Wilson McKinley appears to have been released in 1970.

I'm not disparaging COTD or Marsha Carter, just pointing out a glaring inaccuracy in the first sentence of the entry and showing that COTD were important parts of a much larger context that did not start with them.

3 The entry leaves out some relevant information. As might be guessed, Marsh Carter married Russ Stevens in 1972 or 1973. COTD's 1973 second album, "With All Our Love", is centered on their marriage. It was after a marriage of some 7 years (I believe they had one or more children) that they divorced (1979) and Marsha Stevens announced she was a lesbian. At that point (after 6 albums) COTD also disbanded. IOW, that website's insinuation that Christian rock was the creation of a lesbian is false.

4 "BALM" was founded by Marsha Stevens in the 1980s, and she has traded on her COTD history. How successful she has been in that sphere I have no clue.

I'm not into abstract honorifics like "Father of ..." or "Mother of ...". In terms of influence, because she was in a group rather than a solo artist, I'd think first of Annie Herring (of 2nd Chapter of Acts and also did solo work) Debbie Kerner (who married Ernie Rettino and together started the "Psalty the Singing Songbook" "empire"), Nancy Honeytree, or Jamie Owens-Collins.

In sum, it's very tempting to say the first entry on that webpage is disingenuous or worse, but a simpler explanation is ignorance combined with confirmation bias - the dude knew very little and looked for dirt rather than information.
SVPete

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Those who can, do.
Those who know, teach.
Ignorant incapables, regulate.

Offline SVPete

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2017, 01:27:09 PM »
Quote
... many artists moved to the Christian music movement, not because they were Christian, but for audience and profit.

When speaking of the 1970s, that claim was silly. Christian rock artists of that time were stuck in a crack. Secular record companies wanted nothing to do with them. Existing Christian record companies were unsure there was a market for their music, and were concerned about how their existing Gospel and quartet markets might react. Word took a chance, with the newly created Myrhh label, but Calvary Chapel artists had to form their own record label, and other artists had to self-record or go with small start-ups. Finding the $$ to get into a studio was difficult. And many Christian bookstore had the same fears as Christian record companies. Many artists of the era were basically itinerant, supporting themselves from meager record sales and almost any church or coffee house who would host them. It was into the 80s when record sales became significant and concert venues were larger.

That particular website sees people like Phil Keaggy or Andrae' Crouch or Paul Clark as deceivers rather than as deceived people thinking they are doing ministry. Being deceivers - in that website's view - their motives must be greed or celebrity.
SVPete

Envy is Greed's bigger, more evil, twin.

Those who can, do.
Those who know, teach.
Ignorant incapables, regulate.

Offline Solar

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2017, 02:00:25 PM »
When speaking of the 1970s, that claim was silly. Christian rock artists of that time were stuck in a crack. Secular record companies wanted nothing to do with them. Existing Christian record companies were unsure there was a market for their music, and were concerned about how their existing Gospel and quartet markets might react. Word took a chance, with the newly created Myrhh label, but Calvary Chapel artists had to form their own record label, and other artists had to self-record or go with small start-ups. Finding the $$ to get into a studio was difficult. And many Christian bookstore had the same fears as Christian record companies. Many artists of the era were basically itinerant, supporting themselves from meager record sales and almost any church or coffee house who would host them. It was into the 80s when record sales became significant and concert venues were larger.

That particular website sees people like Phil Keaggy or Andrae' Crouch or Paul Clark as deceivers rather than as deceived people thinking they are doing ministry. Being deceivers - in that website's view - their motives must be greed or celebrity.
,
I never said the 70s. Note, it was the 80s Wiki referred to, which is why I questioned the article, since I first saw them perform in 1972.
But seriously, I really don't don't care.
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Offline Mountainshield

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2017, 01:24:49 AM »
My ex wife was a The leader of her pentecostal church youth group and organized music festivals with other branch churches nation wide, sure it was music and dancing all night but it was also combined with prayer, real sermons by pastors and their wives. Since They were pentecostal The dancing was also to induce speaking in tongues. But it was nothing like you see in those pictures which looks like hippie burning man something shitty. The pentecostal music festivals with Christian rock Are clean and pure and because of this also more fun than simple hedonism imo.

Offline Hoofer

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Re: Disgusting Christianity.
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2017, 06:05:12 AM »
My ex wife was a The leader of her pentecostal church youth group and organized music festivals with other branch churches nation wide, sure it was music and dancing all night but it was also combined with prayer, real sermons by pastors and their wives. Since They were pentecostal The dancing was also to induce speaking in tongues. But it was nothing like you see in those pictures which looks like hippie burning man something shitty. The pentecostal music festivals with Christian rock Are clean and pure and because of this also more fun than simple hedonism imo.

Not at Grayslake, IL.   Wifey and I were there in the mid 1980's, along with several others for a "come together meeting" to "pool resources" - what a disaster.  Not anything we'd ever seen before or since.  IMO... If you need to remind the festival goers, "This is a CHRISTIAN event, we don't do drugs, hookups & fight!", it's just bringing the world into the church.

JPUSA is a Commune in the middle of Chicago, working the Capitalist system... barely.  We got acquainted with a couple of the folks, but it was sort of difficult to really work on anything together, they were really, really busy on a different kinds of problems than we ever imagined.  We were programmers & writers, they were managers and writers - the projects never got off the ground... though we tried.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

 

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