Author Topic: DACA's Dreamers  (Read 220 times)

Offline topside

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DACA's Dreamers
« on: October 11, 2017, 05:26:54 AM »
This is about an idea with regard to DACA and how to approach the issue of Dreamers. I know most minds are already set on this, but I thought this approach worth a few words in case someone with influence finds merit in it.

First, basic definitions for those who don't follow the issue close.

"The Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) was an American immigration policy that allowed some individuals who entered the country as minors, and had either entered or remained in the country illegally, to receive a renewable two-year period of deferred action from deportation and to be eligible for a work permit. As of 2017, approximately 800,000 individuals—referred to as Dreamers after the DREAM Act bill—were enrolled in the program created by DACA. The policy was established by the Obama administration in June 2012 and rescinded by the Trump administration in September 2017."

[Reference: Duke, Elaine (September 5, 2017). "Memorandum on Rescission Of Deferred Action For Childhood Arrivals (DACA)". United States Department of Homeland Security.]

We're talking numbers of about 800k Dreamers according to a few web sites.

So DACA is a policy about addressing illegals who entered the country as children (Dreamers).

Bottom line is that illegal immigrants are here ... illegally. It's the role of POTUS to enforce / uphold the laws (executive branch). He also seems to influence bills / laws in his role - at least he tries. So the libs / RINOs need to stop whining about Trump enforcing law and work to find better solutions than what he is proposing if they want something different. Certainly, our country has had enough of their obstruction - find a way to be productive ... PLEASE!

Now here is the idea. I think most understand that children who grew up in our country (illegally or not) didn't have a choice of where they lived. To send them back to a "foreign" culture is pretty harsh.

Speaking of harsh, read Ezra 9 / 10 from the scriptures (Bible). I know that some may not follow the Bible nor believe it, but this is a historical piece. A remnant of Israel (after most had been enslaved and died in wars) were gathered with the protection of the King of Persia. Ezra was told about how the remnant of Jews had intermarried with foreign women - and took up with their detestable religious practices. After much prayer and mourning over their error (sin) against God, they committed to send the women and children away to purify themselves. Wow! That's harsh. That's the story - like it or not, it's there. So there is a form of precedent.

So let's imagine that we agreed that the Dreamers are here illegally and they need to migrate back to their country under current law. I think that we would also agree that we and, say, Mexico had a part in this problem. We let them in and  didn't enforce law while Mexico didn't / doesn't do much to stop illegals. So I would propose that the US and Mexico need to work together to re-integrate the Dreamers into their culture. That means finding the basics in Mexico (in this example) where they can make a go of it on their own: basically standing up jobs and temp housing until they should have left the nest; a basic re-integration project that lasted maybe 10 years and was funded / managed jointly by the US and Mexico.

This isn't a handout. Rather, proposes that the US and Mexico own our mistake and do what's right to repair this gap and bring it in alignment with our laws. 

Now, this seems pretty common sense. Maybe there are better ideas or it's already out there. But I haven't seen any logical proposal of this type - especially through all the emotional upheaval between the numerous classes / categories that partition our nation. More content, dialogue and less anger / wrath would be much more productive. Quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. 








Online Solar

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2017, 05:46:25 AM »
FWFI, using bible verse is the quickest way to get a thread moved to the religion forum, because you've opened the door for a discuaaion.
Secondly, and this isn't meant as an insult, but your idea is based in complete ignorance, in assuming any of the players involved care enough to stop this activity of illegal border crossing.

First off, Mexico uses these people like chattle, they work like slaves here, send money back to Mexico, while corporations use our govt to lure these people with one hand offering freebies not offered to Americans, and the other hand feigns to Americans, our Legislature will stop the flow of illegals.

You see, you assumed our Representatives want to put a stop to this action, they do not, they acted all offended when Obozo opened our borders to a flood of illegals, an Impeachable offence if there ever was one. But what did the GOP'e do, and what are they doing today?
Not one damn thing, even threaten Trump for wanting to enforse the law.

Ask yourself, why does mexico restrict nionmexicans from buying land and moving to their country?

Though we appreciate your need to find middle ground, but the truth is, you're attempting to intervene between a coyote and sheep discussing what the meal of the day will be, the sheep, no matter how you slice it is not going to find the outcome acceptable.
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Offline Hoofer

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2017, 06:54:46 AM »
Trump based his candidacy on some really simple things that resonated with us.

a.  Build the wall.   That can't be negotiated away.
b.  End DACA.   That's going to happen, but probably not as 'cleanly' as we *think* it should... IMO, he'll negotiate something for something related, and come up with a path to citizenship.  Not what I want, but what I expect from him.

Those verses in Ezra have been used to justify Divorce - ho hum - and have nothing to do with immigration.  We're not going to 'purify America' by shipping illegals back.   If taking foreign wives is bad, then the lineage of Jesus (Rahab, Ruth) has a serious problem.   This is the problem of resting scripture out of context & contorting it to apply elsewhere.   I suppose you could use the same scripture to deport NFL players, for corrupting the game of Football with politics!  For the sanctity of the NFL, fire the protesting players (divorce) and exile them to cuba (send them away).    :ttoung:  actually... I like that idea..

DACA *must* end, period.   ...which doesn't mean it can't be negotiated into a compromised replacement.
I'd like to see them shipped back to where they came from, then, if they REALLY want to come here, get in line.
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Offline topside

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 08:10:36 AM »
Well, I take it you found no merit in the post. You should have opened with, "Topside, you ignorant slut." (Throwback to SNL with Curtain / Chase).

FWFI, using bible verse is the quickest way to get a thread moved to the religion forum, because you've opened the door for a discuaaion.
Secondly, and this isn't meant as an insult, but your idea is based in complete ignorance, in assuming any of the players involved care enough to stop this activity of illegal border crossing.

I was using history that happens to be published in the Bible. History where a people under a law were sending some back to another country. Wow - how can that possibly be relevant to the DACA discussion? I know it's a big leap ... not. And, moreover, if the Bible isn't relevant then why do some of us profess to believe what it says. I think most buy into the historical parts - can be correlated in other documents.

Quote
First off, Mexico uses these people like chattle, they work like slaves here, send money back to Mexico, while corporations use our govt to lure these people with one hand offering freebies not offered to Americans, and the other hand feigns to Americans, our Legislature will stop the flow of illegals.

You see, you assumed our Representatives want to put a stop to this action, they do not, they acted all offended when Obozo opened our borders to a flood of illegals, an Impeachable offence if there ever was one. But what did the GOP'e do, and what are they doing today?
Not one damn thing, even threaten Trump for wanting to enforce the law. [\quote]

I was looking for a solution that could be better than simply sending them back. Trying to think of something more responsible than sending those who only know our culture back ... even though sending them to their countries of origin is required by law. And, yes, it contained a level of naivety. You seem to always look at problems strictly from Conservative vs. Non-conservative viewpoints and the reality that no agreement / compromise has a chance ... yes, sheep and coyotes. But sometimes a solution can be revealed by looking at extremes and then questioning / reducing the extreme elements toward reality. That's used in math and science all the time. Excuse me for trying to apply this variant process to find a solution to DACA.

Quote
Ask yourself, why does mexico restrict nionmexicans from buying land and moving to their country? [\quote]

I had no idea that they did have such a restriction on land purchase - seems that they'd open it up just to take our money? I do agree that Mexico just uses the illegals as slaves. I guess if we took the step to re-patriate illegals to Mexico and their government wouldn't help then that's on them - we should at least try to do our part. Sure - the current libs / RINO Reps are pretending to be progressives. Yes - BO should have been impeached for not enforcing the law - what else was he there for?

Quote
Though we appreciate your need to find middle ground, but the truth is, you're attempting to intervene between a coyote and sheep discussing what the meal of the day will be, the sheep, no matter how you slice it is not going to find the outcome acceptable.

Really? This wasn't middle ground! The illegals, even Dreamers, are sent to their countries of origin without exception. That's not a compromise of any values. The only point was to admit we have some culpability with innocents who are caught up in it - children that have known no other home. It's a logical, reasonable thought holds up whether anyone buys into it or not. It's a reasoned IDEA that is worth a look.

Offline topside

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2017, 08:20:29 AM »
Trump based his candidacy on some really simple things that resonated with us.

a.  Build the wall.   That can't be negotiated away.
b.  End DACA.   That's going to happen, but probably not as 'cleanly' as we *think* it should... IMO, he'll negotiate something for something related, and come up with a path to citizenship.  Not what I want, but what I expect from him.

Those verses in Ezra have been used to justify Divorce - ho hum - and have nothing to do with immigration.  We're not going to 'purify America' by shipping illegals back.   If taking foreign wives is bad, then the lineage of Jesus (Rahab, Ruth) has a serious problem.   This is the problem of resting scripture out of context & contorting it to apply elsewhere.   I suppose you could use the same scripture to deport NFL players, for corrupting the game of Football with politics!  For the sanctity of the NFL, fire the protesting players (divorce) and exile them to cuba (send them away).    :ttoung:  actually... I like that idea..

DACA *must* end, period.   ...which doesn't mean it can't be negotiated into a compromised replacement.
I'd like to see them shipped back to where they came from, then, if they REALLY want to come here, get in line.

I'll just reiterate some of what I said to Solar in the context of your reply - then watch you two blast away. The Bible is a credible source of faith and history. Many may not accept the faith but some of the history can be correlated with other publications. The relevance from Ezra was very direct - sending some away (wives / children) from a land when a law was broken but in an even more extreme circumstance. Yes - it was very harsh! DACA is also harsh on the children, hence the emotional reaction. The real, underlying debate is whether we send them back (enforce the law) or keep / change the law. In Ezra, the law was there for good reason, so they swallowed the bitter pill. With illegals, the laws are there for good reason, so DACA needs to go. The (my) proposal was just a method of aiding the transition.

In the case of Ezra, it was Jewish law rather than US law. No more was meant than to say there has been times when such "hard things" are done to line back up with laws. No replacement was suggested - just a method to own some of the transition problems.

I'm starting to understand that this site tries to keep "church and state" separated to a degree. Using articles of any faith probably just sets some peoples teeth on edge. You guys should just move this post to the religious section and I'll speak more in line with your intent in the political section going forward.

Online Solar

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2017, 09:05:56 AM »
Well, I take it you found no merit in the post. You should have opened with, "Topside, you ignorant slut." (Throwback to SNL with Curtain / Chase).
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote
I was using history that happens to be published in the Bible. History where a people under a law were sending some back to another country. Wow - how can that possibly be relevant to the DACA discussion? I know it's a big leap ... not. And, moreover, if the Bible isn't relevant then why do some of us profess to believe what it says. I think most buy into the historical parts - can be correlated in other documents.

Which has nothing to do with the law, period! Your using religion opens the thread for total derailment of the ssubject at hand, as evidenced in Hoofer's post challenging your point, and continuing the argument on phjilosophical grounds, not law.
So keep religion where it belongs, in the religion forum.


Quote
Really? This wasn't middle ground! The illegals, even Dreamers, are sent to their countries of origin without exception. That's not a compromise of any values. The only point was to admit we have some culpability with innocents who are caught up in it - children that have known no other home. It's a logical, reasonable thought holds up whether anyone buys into it or not. It's a reasoned IDEA that is worth a look.
Umm, your words as follows.

Now here is the idea. I think most understand that children who grew up in our country (illegally or not) didn't have a choice of where they lived. To send them back to a "foreign" culture is pretty harsh.

Life's a bitch, depending on how long they've been in the country makes a huge difference, say they're in their 30s, they've more than likely assimilated, but 5 years? Send them back along with anyone related..
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Offline Billy's bayonet

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 09:17:02 AM »
Not a bad idea Topside, no disrespect but you really expect the Mexican Govt to deal honestly effectively and competently in the case of THEIR citizens? No, they'll steal every damn thing they can and scream at the Gringo's for more money.

If Mexico, or where ever these people came from were a half way decent Govt to begin with we wouldn't have half the problem, You get elected into office by buying your way in and maintain that office by stealing everything you can to pay for more votes, your mistresses, padding your off shore accounts in a Swiss bank in case you have to flee in the middle of the night coz the drug cartels you are protecting decide they want a new boss.

I can understand the sympathy towards the DACA but for my 2 cents WE HOLD THE PARENTS, GUARDIANS OR WHOMEVER SMUGGLED THE KID IN HERE RESPONSIBLE. That means whatever we do with the now grown up kids, whoever brought them here illegally pays the price. They get arrested and deported NOW. If they are a now a citizen,  Hit them with CHILD TRAFFICKING charges, coz in some cases that is what it is.

We have to do something to discourage the practise which will continue 10 fold if you allow the current situation to exist and 100 fold if you give these "dreamers" citizenship.
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Offline topside

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 01:29:29 PM »
I don't have first hand experience with Mexico's corruption, but I'm taking your word for it in conjunction with gossip I pick up. If they deny helping to immigrate THEIR people, they go on record and the Mexicans are the bad guys - not us ... just a political chit.

Much better if the US and Mexico find a soft landing for the Dreamers - to a reasonable extent. Yes - the parents are culpable too. BO should pay for the re-immigration zone to help Dreamers back in. Maybe the Dims could donate some of their political funds to it too. Wait ... do they have any funds?

Also agree - bottom line is that Dreamers need to return to their country of citizenship by law. Then they can apply for US citizenship like anyone else.

Offline Hoofer

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 05:40:34 PM »
I'll just reiterate some of what I said to Solar in the context of your reply - then watch you two blast away. The Bible is a credible source of faith and history. Many may not accept the faith but some of the history can be correlated with other publications. The relevance from Ezra was very direct - sending some away (wives / children) from a land when a law was broken but in an even more extreme circumstance. Yes - it was very harsh! DACA is also harsh on the children, hence the emotional reaction. The real, underlying debate is whether we send them back (enforce the law) or keep / change the law. In Ezra, the law was there for good reason, so they swallowed the bitter pill. With illegals, the laws are there for good reason, so DACA needs to go. The (my) proposal was just a method of aiding the transition.

In the case of Ezra, it was Jewish law rather than US law. No more was meant than to say there has been times when such "hard things" are done to line back up with laws. No replacement was suggested - just a method to own some of the transition problems.

I'm starting to understand that this site tries to keep "church and state" separated to a degree. Using articles of any faith probably just sets some peoples teeth on edge. You guys should just move this post to the religious section and I'll speak more in line with your intent in the political section going forward.

I don't make the rules, just try to live by them, best I can here... the only thing I have invested here is *time*.
As far as Biblical 'reading' - today I got through Acts, Romans & 1 Corinthians - useful, yes, VERY - it helps keep my own head clear and focused on what really matters, to separate the crap from the real stuff.  I don't want to be seen as an 'example' - just a follower of Jesus - I am not Jesus.

What does really bother me, and bother me ALOT - people who wrest scripture completely out-of-context to make a far-fetched application, never even referring to the historical time, geographical place, audience, etc., and claim it's completely applicable for this moment.  That is not "rightly dividing" or correctly applying the Word of Truth.  The less they read / understand Scripture, the more likely they are to come up with really wild applications that often border on 'adding to the Word of God' - just my opinion, mind you.
What is not my opinion, Scripture is powerful & sharp.... people seem to think their interpretation and power of persuasion is somehow 'more powerful' - utterly laughable!

I still can't see what Ezra has to do with DACA - sorry!  Who is to say some of those wives and children we're killed?  If you want a tough, heartless decision, how about sacrificing your daughter because you made a vow to sacrifice the first thing that you meet at the door?  Or beheading John the Baptist because the daughter of your main squeeze danced well? 

People do dumb things (in hindsight), all the time - I simply attribute bringing your kids to America illegally as one of those dumb things - send them back, they are not citizens.   But... I suspect Trump will cave on that promise.
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Offline topside

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2017, 09:38:28 AM »
I don't make the rules, just try to live by them, best I can here... the only thing I have invested here is *time*.
As far as Biblical 'reading' - today I got through Acts, Romans & 1 Corinthians - useful, yes, VERY - it helps keep my own head clear and focused on what really matters, to separate the crap from the real stuff.  I don't want to be seen as an 'example' - just a follower of Jesus - I am not Jesus.

What does really bother me, and bother me ALOT - people who wrest scripture completely out-of-context to make a far-fetched application, never even referring to the historical time, geographical place, audience, etc., and claim it's completely applicable for this moment.  That is not "rightly dividing" or correctly applying the Word of Truth.  The less they read / understand Scripture, the more likely they are to come up with really wild applications that often border on 'adding to the Word of God' - just my opinion, mind you.
What is not my opinion, Scripture is powerful & sharp.... people seem to think their interpretation and power of persuasion is somehow 'more powerful' - utterly laughable!

I still can't see what Ezra has to do with DACA - sorry!  Who is to say some of those wives and children we're killed?  If you want a tough, heartless decision, how about sacrificing your daughter because you made a vow to sacrifice the first thing that you meet at the door?  Or beheading John the Baptist because the daughter of your main squeeze danced well? 

People do dumb things (in hindsight), all the time - I simply attribute bringing your kids to America illegally as one of those dumb things - send them back, they are not citizens.   But... I suspect Trump will cave on that promise.

If I had said something about how Jefferson had slaves and provided support then there would have been no question in my use of history. But I used the Bible as a historical record. 

You're reading too much into what I wrote. All I did was ask myself if there is any other precedent that I know of (historically) where children were sent away from their culture of origin to their country of citizenship that they grew up in due to a country returning to the laws they are committed to - but violated. I happened to have read the Ezra reference recently and found it interesting and relevant. It also underscored how difficult a situation it was. You don't see it - okay, move on.

After identifying the story from Ezra and recognizing that they must also have felt great pain in their decision (speculation, but logical), I went on to suggest that we might try and find a soft landing for the Dreamers as we escort them back to their country under our laws. That a soft landing might be better for them and might also make the situation politically tenable / generate more support.

Not sure why you seem so bent out of shape. I didn't associate any implication from it other than it had happened another time in history and any interested could go read about it and why it happened. I didn't misconstrue anything out of context - just stated that it happened and any reader can go look it up and read it if they want to. So get off my case and quit inventing messages that I neither wrote overtly nor implied.


Online Solar

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2017, 10:46:11 AM »
If I had said something about how Jefferson had slaves and provided support then there would have been no question in my use of history. But I used the Bible as a historical record. 

You're reading too much into what I wrote. All I did was ask myself if there is any other precedent that I know of (historically) where children were sent away from their culture of origin to their country of citizenship that they grew up in due to a country returning to the laws they are committed to - but violated. I happened to have read the Ezra reference recently and found it interesting and relevant. It also underscored how difficult a situation it was. You don't see it - okay, move on.

After identifying the story from Ezra and recognizing that they must also have felt great pain in their decision (speculation, but logical), I went on to suggest that we might try and find a soft landing for the Dreamers as we escort them back to their country under our laws. That a soft landing might be better for them and might also make the situation politically tenable / generate more support.

Not sure why you seem so bent out of shape. I didn't associate any implication from it other than it had happened another time in history and any interested could go read about it and why it happened. I didn't misconstrue anything out of context - just stated that it happened and any reader can go look it up and read it if they want to. So get off my case and quit inventing messages that I neither wrote overtly nor implied.
Now, do you understand why religion is unacceptable in the Poli forum?
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Offline topside

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 06:09:02 AM »
Now, do you understand why religion is unacceptable in the Poli forum?

Yes - point well taken by example.

It's an interesting dilemma.

On the one hand, if our faith isn't integrated into who we are all the time then it's either fake or at best is true faith being hidden.

But on the other, if we try and communicate with others based on our faith then those who have different takes on how the secular and supernatural meet go off the deep end.

I've always heard about the separation of church and state. It's not in the Constitution but was part of some of Jefferson's dialogue from what I've learned. I haven't ever found a reason to agree with it - just seemed like a critical compromise for the wrong reasons. But this experience does identify why it has some validity to be able to communicate with those who have variants in faith (even just in Christian circles).

I'm still not sure how to balance it when talking to people ... or posting in the forum. But I thought the Ezra reference was pretty benign and even it blew up a little. Hiding or faith is problematic from the side of being genuine but citing our faith on dealing with problems is also problematic - reduces productive political discussion.

This isn't meant as critical, but the point of the forum is still under question for me. There is a lot of chest beating, joking, and rock throwing. But once in awhile, someone with influence sees it - it might just have an impact. I guess that the other benefit is figuring out how to interact with those of similar minds with regard to politics. I would like to see more constructive ideas though. Maybe they are buried in some of the other sections?

Offline topside

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 06:17:24 AM »
Now, do you understand why religion is unacceptable in the Poli forum?

Actually, the "Disguising Christian" post that is now active in the Poli Forum makes your case CRYSTAL clear.

Online Solar

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2017, 08:20:43 AM »
Actually, the "Disguising Christian" post that is now active in the Poli Forum makes your case CRYSTAL clear.
Everyone has an opinion about religion, and no two are the same, even amongst Christians, which make every post involving religion a point of contention and a challenge for debate.
There is no right answer where religion is concerned, only philosophical discussions where all parties agree not to challenge another's beliefs.
In truth, all Religion is faith based "Feeling", there is no solid evidence supporting one idea over another, only the actions of the Clergy precede them and how they're judged by their followers.
There is, however, the actions of the church where one can base their views on the religion being taught and the intellect of the congregation.
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Offline topside

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Re: DACA's Dreamers
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2017, 11:37:33 AM »
Everyone has an opinion about religion, and no two are the same, even amongst Christians, which make every post involving religion a point of contention and a challenge for debate.
There is no right answer where religion is concerned, only philosophical discussions where all parties agree not to challenge another's beliefs.
In truth, all Religion is faith based "Feeling", there is no solid evidence supporting one idea over another, only the actions of the Clergy precede them and how they're judged by their followers.
There is, however, the actions of the church where one can base their views on the religion being taught and the intellect of the congregation.

Correction to my post: "Distgusting Christianity" mentioned was in the Religious Forum, not the Poli Forum. I typed the wrong Forum name by accident.

I'm with you on the outcome - that it seems few can agree to state their position and answer valid questions, checking the emotions at the door. Or to avoid attacks of the beliefs of others - but to rather just ask thoughtful questions for clarification before making personal decisions on the statements / arguments of others. No - it usually just gets into an emotional mud ball - unproductive for anyone.

Where I agree less so is with regard to Clergy. I don't respect Clergy any more than anyone else - maybe even less. They live in a world that is somewhat isolated from the day-to-day reality of experiential living. They experience more of the pretend-side of people who act one way at church / with Clergy and differently when doing life or when they are alone. Religions are all broken. Even the community churches are full of messed up people led by messed leaders. My faith / hope is that some of those I worship with will try and find their way to the one who cleans up the mess.

My faith starts with simple internal logic based on experiences - which is dangerous. But then my focus starts with the Bible which gives that faith fine-grained substance of who God is and how he's interacted with mankind through history. Yes, the Bible has inconsistencies, but the basic message and support for it's historical and supernatural content are unprecedented. So, as many others, I read that and try and chase after God through what it says. As with you, I'm not in any official religion but do use the Bible to pave the way to run toward the Creator.


 




 

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