Author Topic: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights  (Read 6038 times)

Offline cubedemon

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2016, 09:43:30 AM »
If we put aside for a second the devil in Eden when God banished Adam and Eve because they ate the apple which caused them to realize they were naked and become "aware"

do you think God does not want us to know everything?  He wants to keep us below a certain level?

what do you think?

It doesn't matter what I think.  Thinking implies my subjective opinion.  Problem with that is your red could be my green.   

Another thing, It  seems that based upon what some say nature implies God.  Why can't nature imply Zeus, Apollo, hectate, Titans or any other God as well?

Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2016, 10:27:23 AM »
It doesn't matter what I think.  Thinking implies my subjective opinion.  Problem with that is your red could be my green.   

Another thing, It  seems that based upon what some say nature implies God.  Why can't nature imply Zeus, Apollo, hectate, Titans or any other God as well?

First, to Steve, SPHR…  God definitely wants us to know Him and has given us amply information to do so.  The only thing he keeps from us is His face.  He has spoken audibly to the Patriarchs and given us His written word to live by.
So what was the "Tree of the knowledge of good and  evil?"
Good was exemplified by obedience to God. (Do not eat.)  Evil was disobedience to God.
Before they ate they had no concept of evil.  Once they ate they experienced guilt and remorse.  Their eyes were opened to the inner turmoil of disobedience.  They also faced the consequences of the sin by being expelled from the Garden.
BTW, there is no mention of an apple in Genesis.  It merely says "fruit".

Now to Cubedemon..  You are absolutely right about our opinions being of no value.   The only thing that matters is God's will for us and our obedience to his written revelation in the Bible.  He has interacted with His creation since the beginning of time.   No other "god" has done that.  He has explained His creation in glorious grandeur in the Bible.  He has given us everything we need for achieving our full potential for which we were created.  He has also revealed Himself in the form of Jesus Christ who was God incarnate.

God knew from the beginning that his creation would be disobedient because He gave them a free will to disobey.  Therefore he provided an atonement for our disobedience in the form of the blood of Christ.

Why did He do it this way?   One day we can ask Him when we really start living.. in eternity.

Offline supsalemgr

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2016, 11:39:50 AM »
First, to Steve, SPHR…  God definitely wants us to know Him and has given us amply information to do so.  The only thing he keeps from us is His face.  He has spoken audibly to the Patriarchs and given us His written word to live by.
So what was the "Tree of the knowledge of good and  evil?"
Good was exemplified by obedience to God. (Do not eat.)  Evil was disobedience to God.
Before they ate they had no concept of evil.  Once they ate they experienced guilt and remorse.  Their eyes were opened to the inner turmoil of disobedience.  They also faced the consequences of the sin by being expelled from the Garden.
BTW, there is no mention of an apple in Genesis.  It merely says "fruit".

Now to Cubedemon..  You are absolutely right about our opinions being of no value.   The only thing that matters is God's will for us and our obedience to his written revelation in the Bible.  He has interacted with His creation since the beginning of time.   No other "god" has done that.  He has explained His creation in glorious grandeur in the Bible.  He has given us everything we need for achieving our full potential for which we were created.  He has also revealed Himself in the form of Jesus Christ who was God incarnate.

God knew from the beginning that his creation would be disobedient because He gave them a free will to disobey.  Therefore he provided an atonement for our disobedience in the form of the blood of Christ.

Why did He do it this way?   One day we can ask Him when we really start living.. in eternity.

Right on.  :thumbup:

Good to hear from you. Hope you have been well and continue to visit. We have missed you good lady.
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Offline walkstall

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2016, 11:50:11 AM »
Right on.  :thumbup:

Good to hear from you. Hope you have been well and continue to visit. We have missed you good lady.

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Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2016, 11:54:31 AM »
Right on.  :thumbup:

Good to hear from you. Hope you have been well and continue to visit. We have missed you good lady.

Thank you sup.  I appreciate your kind words.  I visit when I get email notifications. (not a lot)  I am doing very well.

Offline cubedemon

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2016, 03:25:13 PM »
First, to Steve, SPHR…  God definitely wants us to know Him and has given us amply information to do so.  The only thing he keeps from us is His face.  He has spoken audibly to the Patriarchs and given us His written word to live by.
So what was the "Tree of the knowledge of good and  evil?"
Good was exemplified by obedience to God. (Do not eat.)  Evil was disobedience to God.
Before they ate they had no concept of evil.  Once they ate they experienced guilt and remorse.  Their eyes were opened to the inner turmoil of disobedience.  They also faced the consequences of the sin by being expelled from the Garden.
BTW, there is no mention of an apple in Genesis.  It merely says "fruit".

Now to Cubedemon..  You are absolutely right about our opinions being of no value.   The only thing that matters is God's will for us and our obedience to his written revelation in the Bible.  He has interacted with His creation since the beginning of time.   No other "god" has done that.  He has explained His creation in glorious grandeur in the Bible.  He has given us everything we need for achieving our full potential for which we were created.  He has also revealed Himself in the form of Jesus Christ who was God incarnate.

God knew from the beginning that his creation would be disobedient because He gave them a free will to disobey.  Therefore he provided an atonement for our disobedience in the form of the blood of Christ.

Why did He do it this way?   One day we can ask Him when we really start living.. in eternity.

Ten commandments:
http://aumamen.com/s/i/t/h/the-ten-commandments-2.png

Looking at all ten commandments, statutes, laws, commands, etc I think we can derive a zeroth commandment which is simply Obey God.

Similar to the concept of the three laws of robotics by Issac Asimov in logical structure which are

1.  A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

2.  A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3.  A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

and the zeroth law says

0. A robot may not harm humanity, or through inaction allow humanity to come to harm.

Offline cubedemon

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2016, 06:05:20 AM »

Now to Cubedemon..  You are absolutely right about our opinions being of no value.   The only thing that matters is God's will for us and our obedience to his written revelation in the Bible.  He has interacted with His creation since the beginning of time.   No other "god" has done that.  He has explained His creation in glorious grandeur in the Bible.  He has given us everything we need for achieving our full potential for which we were created.  He has also revealed Himself in the form of Jesus Christ who was God incarnate.

God knew from the beginning that his creation would be disobedient because He gave them a free will to disobey.  Therefore he provided an atonement for our disobedience in the form of the blood of Christ.

Why did He do it this way?   One day we can ask Him when we really start living.. in eternity.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/new-board/commands-from-god-vs-our-inalienable-rights/msg247644/#msg247644

Looking at your post above you said God has ordained some will become his people and you said God created some for destruction.   If what you say is truth here then how do we have free will to obey or disobey at all?   If God created some for destruction as you say then are they not obeying God as well?   By this logic and the definition of murder (murder is unlawful or unauthorized killing), there is no such thing as murder and all killing is authorized and lawful by God since some who were created for destruction are killers as well.   

So, I am not really understanding what you're saying here.   Is there something that you're implying that I am missing?   If there is, I do have difficulty with things that are implied and not stated out due to my autism. 

How can those who were chosen for destruction choose or not choose to obey God or are they already obeying God especially if obeying God is the zeroth commandment to all of his commandments, statutes, laws, etc?

Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2016, 07:51:24 AM »
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/new-board/commands-from-god-vs-our-inalienable-rights/msg247644/#msg247644

Looking at your post above you said God has ordained some will become his people and you said God created some for destruction.   If what you say is truth here then how do we have free will to obey or disobey at all?   If God created some for destruction as you say then are they not obeying God as well?   By this logic and the definition of murder (murder is unlawful or unauthorized killing), there is no such thing as murder and all killing is authorized and lawful by God since some who were created for destruction are killers as well.   

So, I am not really understanding what you're saying here.   Is there something that you're implying that I am missing?   If there is, I do have difficulty with things that are implied and not stated out due to my autism. 

How can those who were chosen for destruction choose or not choose to obey God or are they already obeying God especially if obeying God is the zeroth commandment to all of his commandments, statutes, laws, etc?

That is an excellent question, cubedemon.

What you fail to realize is that NONE of us would choose to obey God.  We are all sinful creatures and are totally powerless to obey God within our own flesh.  None in the Old Testament totally obeyed the Mosaic Law.  In our flesh we have a bent toward sinfulness.

However, in God's sovereign providence He has chosen to draw some of us to Himself.  The Holy Spirit pricks our hearts and draws us toward our Creator.  When He does this, we will recognize that this is a force outside of ourselves and we will respond by receiving Him into our heart.  That is not our own doing, but all of it comes from God.  We merely receive Him into our hearts. 

We do not know why God chooses to convict some of their sins and not others.  It is God's providential choice.  It is His grace and mercy showered on a chosen few.  But Scripture tells us that He determined His chosen ones before the foundation of the earth was laid.  As Romans 8 and 9 says, before we were even born we were predestined to be conformed to His image….. "before we had done anything right or wrong."

But that does not mean we do not ALL have free wills.  The ONLY thing outside of our free will is our predestined election by God.  Without that, we would ALL be doomed to hell.  None of us has the power to save ourselves.  We all sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Even after we are saved by God's sovereign choice, we continue to sin and fall short.  However, we have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to prick our hearts and conscience to do the things that would please the Father.  We have a new bent to please our Father.  God knows that we will never be perfect before reaching eternity but we will continue to grow and mature in our relationship with God until we reach eternity.  And He will use us for His purposes while we are still here on earth.  That is why I emerge from retirement to this forum to answer your questions.  God continues to prick my heart to reach out to others who may be His elect but have not yet understood the truth.  I pray that truth takes root in your heart and God's Spirit draws you to Him.


Offline cubedemon

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2016, 08:39:39 AM »
That is an excellent question, cubedemon.

What you fail to realize is that NONE of us would choose to obey God.  We are all sinful creatures and are totally powerless to obey God within our own flesh.  None in the Old Testament totally obeyed the Mosaic Law.  In our flesh we have a bent toward sinfulness.

However, in God's sovereign providence He has chosen to draw some of us to Himself.  The Holy Spirit pricks our hearts and draws us toward our Creator.  When He does this, we will recognize that this is a force outside of ourselves and we will respond by receiving Him into our heart.  That is not our own doing, but all of it comes from God.  We merely receive Him into our hearts. 

We do not know why God chooses to convict some of their sins and not others.  It is God's providential choice.  It is His grace and mercy showered on a chosen few.  But Scripture tells us that He determined His chosen ones before the foundation of the earth was laid.  As Romans 8 and 9 says, before we were even born we were predestined to be conformed to His image….. "before we had done anything right or wrong."

But that does not mean we do not ALL have free wills.  The ONLY thing outside of our free will is our predestined election by God.  Without that, we would ALL be doomed to hell.  None of us has the power to save ourselves.  We all sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Even after we are saved by God's sovereign choice, we continue to sin and fall short.  However, we have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to prick our hearts and conscience to do the things that would please the Father.  We have a new bent to please our Father.  God knows that we will never be perfect before reaching eternity but we will continue to grow and mature in our relationship with God until we reach eternity.  And He will use us for His purposes while we are still here on earth.  That is why I emerge from retirement to this forum to answer your questions.  God continues to prick my heart to reach out to others who may be His elect but have not yet understood the truth.  I pray that truth takes root in your heart and God's Spirit draws you to Him.

Let's pull these two statements out.  "What you fail to realize is that NONE of us would choose to obey God.  We are all sinful creatures and are totally powerless to obey God within our own flesh. "

First statement: "Would" implies that the ability to choose to obey God is within us and our own flesh; one simply chooses not to obey him.   Second statement:  Totally Powerless implies that one can't choose to obey God b/c of our condition (fleshly nature). 

I don't get it.  Is it that one chooses not to obey or one literally can't obey w/o God's prickling?

Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2016, 11:51:54 AM »
Let's pull these two statements out.  "What you fail to realize is that NONE of us would choose to obey God.  We are all sinful creatures and are totally powerless to obey God within our own flesh. "

First statement: "Would" implies that the ability to choose to obey God is within us and our own flesh; one simply chooses not to obey him.   Second statement:  Totally Powerless implies that one can't choose to obey God b/c of our condition (fleshly nature). 

I don't get it.  Is it that one chooses not to obey or one literally can't obey w/o God's prickling?

You have very keen insight on this subject, cubedemon, and ask good questions.

We are ALL born with a sin nature which we inherited from Adam.  a sinful nature dwells within us and reigns over us.  Romans 3: 10 12 says "as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God.  All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."

Man does not seek God.  It is God who seeks after men.  Apart from the indwelling Spirit of God we cannot truly obey God.  We can strive to be good and moral people, but our "works" can never save us.  However, we can know that He exists because of our knowledge of His creation.  So we are without excuse for not seeking after God.  But the truth is that no one does truly seek after God in his own flesh.  Sin reigns within us and we are incapable of pleasing God.

So, the answer to your question is yes, we cannot obey apart from God's drawing us to Himself.

The fact that you ask such good questions makes me think that God may already be working in your heart.   If He is, He will convict you of your sinfulness and give you a contrite heart.  At that point all you have to do is acknowledge your sin and receive His free gift of grace.  From that day forward you will sense the Spirit of God within you and seek to conform to the image of God and please Him.  Yes, you will continue to sin but your conscience will prick your heart and lead you to repentence.  It is an ongoing relationship and He will never leave you.  The rest of your life will be a spiritual maturing process.
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Offline cubedemon

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2016, 11:33:06 AM »
You have very keen insight on this subject, cubedemon, and ask good questions.

We are ALL born with a sin nature which we inherited from Adam.  a sinful nature dwells within us and reigns over us.  Romans 3: 10 12 says "as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God.  All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."

Man does not seek God.  It is God who seeks after men.  Apart from the indwelling Spirit of God we cannot truly obey God.  We can strive to be good and moral people, but our "works" can never save us.  However, we can know that He exists because of our knowledge of His creation.  So we are without excuse for not seeking after God.  But the truth is that no one does truly seek after God in his own flesh.  Sin reigns within us and we are incapable of pleasing God.

So, the answer to your question is yes, we cannot obey apart from God's drawing us to Himself.

The fact that you ask such good questions makes me think that God may already be working in your heart.   If He is, He will convict you of your sinfulness and give you a contrite heart.  At that point all you have to do is acknowledge your sin and receive His free gift of grace.  From that day forward you will sense the Spirit of God within you and seek to conform to the image of God and please Him.  Yes, you will continue to sin but your conscience will prick your heart and lead you to repentence.  It is an ongoing relationship and He will never leave you.  The rest of your life will be a spiritual maturing process.
.

Thanks for the compliment.

I would like to sum this up in bullet points just to make sure I'm understanding this fully.

a.   Anyone who is not obedient to God is not saved and is therefore sinful since sin means disobedience to God.
b.   No one is obedient to God because of their nature and therefore everyone is sinful.
c.   God chooses who he will bring to him and save.   
d.   Those who he chooses will continue to stumble and fall but God will prick at them and still draw them to him but they will become obedient.
e.   God chooses some for destruction.
f.   Whether God chooses one for life or destruction God's desire for each person is being fulfilled whether it is life and eternity with him or death and eternity without him.
g. Everyone, whether chosen for life or destruction, is a part of fulfilling God's plan.

Is all of what I am saying correct?  Do I have any inaccuracies, misinterpretations, or misrepresentations?

Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2016, 12:27:39 PM »
Thanks for the compliment.

I would like to sum this up in bullet points just to make sure I'm understanding this fully.

a.   Anyone who is not obedient to God is not saved and is therefore sinful since sin means disobedience to God.
b.   No one is obedient to God because of their nature and therefore everyone is sinful.
c.   God chooses who he will bring to him and save.   
d.   Those who he chooses will continue to stumble and fall but God will prick at them and still draw them to him but they will become obedient.
e.   God chooses some for destruction.
f.   Whether God chooses one for life or destruction God's desire for each person is being fulfilled whether it is life and eternity with him or death and eternity without him.
g. Everyone, whether chosen for life or destruction, is a part of fulfilling God's plan.

Is all of what I am saying correct?  Do I have any inaccuracies, misinterpretations, or misrepresentations?

Almost right!

God really does not desire that any would perish.  He would love for all to be obedient, but Adam made that impossible.  (But God foreknew that Adam would disobey….. because He gave Adam a freewill to do so.)  But it is important that we understand that Adam was NOT condemned to hell for his disobedience.  He suffered loss and was doomed to die, but he repented and still had a relationship with God and taught his children to be obedient to the Father.  But full obedience was no longer possible.

a.  Is not correct because none of us are totally obedient to God.  And those who are not "called" of God cannot obey because they do not possess the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit prompts us to do certain things which God wills us to do.   It may be something as small as reaching out to someone that has been placed on your heart to help in a time of need.  God wants to use believers to accomplish His will on earth.  To the extent that we heed the H.S.'s voice that speaks to our heart, we are rewarded in heaven.  But there are many times that we  do not follow the promptings of the Spirit.  It does not affect our salvation but it causes us to lose rewards and blessings in eternity.  Obedience has nothing to do with our salvation.  Our salvation is a pure gift from God apart from anything we do.  Obedience is something we do to please the Father, much like a child wants to please their parent.

b. and c.  are totally correct.

d. is mostly correct but no believer becomes totally obedient.  Many are not often obedient.  Not all Christians grow to maturity.  Some die as immature Christians.  In eternity they will regret their disobedience on earth because they will suffer a form of "loss".  We don't know exactly what all that involves but the Scriptures say that we are given "crowns" for our obedience.  We are also given assignments of various levels of leadership in the Millennial kingdom.  Those assignment will be based upon our faithfulness on earth.  Scripture says we will reign with Him.  There is much to look forward to.  This life is just a proving ground for the real life which will last forever.

e. f. and g.  are correct.   Read Romans chapter nine for a better understanding of it.

Offline Sirius Star

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2016, 10:14:14 PM »
There are some Christians who claim that our inalienable rights come from God and come from the bible. Our constitution and declaration of independence is biblically and God derived. If one looks at the bible, it is a collection of stories that teach a point as to what happens if one disobeys God and what happens if one obeys. In the bible God has given series of commands over the centuries to various people. Where does it say in the bible that one has a right to anything whatsoever? What our founding fathers and other philosophers and intellectuals did was took these commands and made them into rights. A command and edict by God becomes a right.

For example, thou shalt not kill somehow transforms into a right to life...If one has the right to life which is based upon a command and an edict by God.

If clothing and feeding the hungry is also a command by God then by logical consistency doesn’t one have the RIGHT to be clothed, fed and sheltered if one cannot clothe, feed or shelter himself? Why do colonial traditionalists, strict constitutionalists, Christian conservatives, and personal responsibility advocates have such inconsistent standards? If one must derive a right from a command or edict in one sense then shouldn’t one derive rights from commands from God across the whole board? Why or Why not?
Good questions which some might just find convenient enough to keep a single loaf of bread from ever going around. So where was the U.S. Constitution first found? Some say it was at least partly derived from some American Indians' sacred burial mounds, while others may say it was already found inside of their Bibles. Perhaps, so, it was found in both places. Who really actually knows? And exactly how or who did design that same exact flag all say she created by the name of Betsy Ross. All some may know is that the word says that God is a judge, a lawgiver and a king, as in Isaiah 33:22. So there are the three compartments separated.

Just the church at Philadelphia, is that all still some kind of Jewish history, or does it perhaps just perhaps have something to really do with those exact same colonialists? There's nothing that says anyone has a right to leave out the Ten Commandments as being what would be the right to receive as gifts the Ten Amendments. Without one living to have obedience to God, they might say that no one just gets to just have the other ones. As in, those who hate what the Founding Fathers managed to arrange by the divine providence of God, that most assuredly some have only made it big to provide a conduit to the whole truth of who is the Christ will be solved.

That the light of the truth shall have finally evolved: Isaiah 11:4 > "But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked." So if one has the wealth or even a way to help someone else, but never does, because of what reason it may mean to them, that they would know they are outside of ownership of all that they own just because they did it inside of malice, that it would be entered into the Book of Life as failed, soullessly, the whole of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, just because money into their heartlessness was all they ever imported.

Revelation 20:12, books were opened and there was present with them all they had done, whether good or bad. So, when evil is called good, is that just okay by God? The second death is the lake of fire is if they never turned it around or thought it would meet in the middle of the exchanged. Some like to say the lake of fire is not real. But all are also judged as much by the book of life for all that was to become dead. Blessed and holy who partakes in the first resurrection! That Satan has been loosed as he was also just as much another victim of binding by the way of all the same bondage given. The one reality is that slow-of-speech is no excuse to not understand. And even if they don't, just because they never wanted it, that will be all theirs right to the altered.




The Akhenaten Revolution meant the end of the Russian czars only to be ruled over by something not less than the kin of aliens; if you see the truth, then turn the pages of history and Seti's Temple Abydos, for the Lord abides with us all the way through the Book of Revelation ***/\ chapters 7 & 14.

 

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