Author Topic: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights  (Read 6607 times)

Online walkstall

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2015, 07:10:44 PM »
Okay, this is a very deep subject that requires more than a few sentences.  But I will say that I believe the Scriptures when they say that "Before the foundation of the earth, God pre-ordained" those who would become believers in Him.  That is a very difficult doctrine, but it is pure Scripture.  I could give you many scriptures to support this.

The point is..... God ordains who will become His people.  That includes infants and all mankind.  His sheep will hear His voice.

Romans 9 tells us that God created some for destruction.  That is a difficult doctrine.... but truth.  Some people will never become believers because it is not providential. 

I think the best way of looking at it is that if there were no blackness, we would be unable to understand the blessing of light.  Sin exists because we can better appreciate and understand God's grace. 

The old testament law was given to us as a tutor (according to Hebrews) that we might be able to understand good vs. evil.  That we might be able to see the wonder of God's grace to sinners. 

God reveals Himself to all men, but not all men will respond to Him.

So those not  "pre-ordained" can bite the bullet also.   
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.  ~ Ronald Reagan ~

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Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2015, 07:21:07 PM »
So those not  "pre-ordained" can bite the bullet also.

Yes, but it is not that bad.   

In reality NONE of us would accept Christ if left to our own thinking.  We ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God.  It is only those whom He draws to Him that will receive Him.  It is God who initiates the salvation process and we will not resist his amazing grace. 

Jesus said when he was still here on earth that he would not lose any whom His Father had given to Him.

When did the Father give them to Him?  Before the foundation of the earth.

This is very heavy doctrine that requires much time and study to comprehend.  I have studied it for 35 years and am convinced that God is sovereign over all things..... including our salvation.

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2015, 07:55:48 PM »
Yes, but it is not that bad.   

In reality NONE of us would accept Christ if left to our own thinking.  We ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God.  It is only those whom He draws to Him that will receive Him.  It is God who initiates the salvation process and we will not resist his amazing grace. 

Jesus said when he was still here on earth that he would not lose any whom His Father had given to Him.

When did the Father give them to Him?  Before the foundation of the earth.

This is very heavy doctrine that requires much time and study to comprehend.  I have studied it for 35 years and am convinced that God is sovereign over all things..... including our salvation.


Well when I get to the other side I will find out if I was "pre-ordained" or "just hung out to dry." 

The one who must be obeyed has talked to me in many ways in my life time.  But s/he has not told me if I was "pre-ordained" that I know of, BUT I could have missed that along the way.
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.  ~ Ronald Reagan ~

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2015, 08:13:19 PM »

Well when I get to the other side I will find out if I was "pre-ordained" or "just hung out to dry." 

The one who must be obeyed has talked to me in many ways in my life time.  But s/he has not told me if I was "pre-ordained" that I know of, BUT I could have missed that along the way.

But the Bible tells you that......

 Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

 Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

 Eph 1:5  He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

 Eph 1:6  to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 Eph 1:7  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

 Eph 1:8  which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

 Eph 1:9  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

 Eph 1:10  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

 Eph 1:11  also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

 Eph 1:12  to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

 Eph 1:13  In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 Eph 1:14  who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I could give you many more place where He says we are predestined......

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2015, 09:21:14 PM »
But the Bible tells you that......

 Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

 Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

 Eph 1:5  He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

 Eph 1:6  to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 Eph 1:7  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

 Eph 1:8  which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

 Eph 1:9  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

 Eph 1:10  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

 Eph 1:11  also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

 Eph 1:12  to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

 Eph 1:13  In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 Eph 1:14  who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I could give you many more place where He says we are predestined......

kroz your wasting your time with me.   Organized religion went out the door along time ago for me when they told me my wife's live was not important. 
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.  ~ Ronald Reagan ~

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2015, 04:43:36 AM »
kroz your wasting your time with me.   Organized religion went out the door along time ago for me when they told me my wife's live was not important.

I am so sorry about that.

I cannot imagine anyone saying that!  I have never heard of such a horrible thing.  What kind of church was that?

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2015, 06:39:19 AM »
I am so sorry about that.

I cannot imagine anyone saying that!  I have never heard of such a horrible thing.  What kind of church was that?

Christians
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.  ~ Ronald Reagan ~

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2015, 06:42:07 AM »
Christians

Not everyone who claims to be Christian really is!  Anyone can SAY they are a Christian.

Can you give me any more information?

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2015, 06:58:09 AM »
Not everyone who claims to be Christian really is!  Anyone can SAY they are a Christian.

Can you give me any more information?

No, as others are very happy in what they have or need. 
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.  ~ Ronald Reagan ~

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Offline red_dirt

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2015, 12:26:31 PM »
I think cubey is a "hit & run" artist.

Well, I suspect he is, too. This is same old tired rhetoric the left spreads around. It is what is taught in colleges and seminaries around the Christian world.  Here is the giveaway to me, the key phrases highlighted in red by yours truly:

This is what our founding fathers and other intellectuals do with all of their ruminations on rights and liberties at least those who claim it is biblical. Does this hold up? If it does shouldn’t it be consistent?

Doesn't this sound just as if it were Obama talking?  I'd say Michelle, too, but she is a little off the deep end even to phrase it so well.
 
So, there we have it folks, this is the official party line. "The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are ruminations on rights by our founding fathers and other intellectuals."

Do you think those "other intellectuals" who, like Bill Ayers and Barack Obama, get fat public jobs they are in  no way qualified for might be in for a shock when and if real communists take over and start going house to house to "interview" those "other intellectuals?"  Where is the Bunko Squad when we need 'em?

Offline supsalemgr

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2015, 12:36:17 PM »
Well, I suspect he is, too. This is same old tired rhetoric the left spreads around. It is what is taught in colleges and seminaries around the Christian world.  Here is the giveaway to me, the key phrases highlighted in red by yours truly:

Doesn't this sound just as if it were Obama talking?  I'd say Michelle, too, but she is a little off the deep end even to phrase it so well.
 
So, there we have it folks, this is the official party line. "The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are ruminations on rights by our founding fathers and other intellectuals."

Do you think those "other intellectuals" who, like Bill Ayers and Barack Obama, get fat public jobs they are in  no way qualified for might be in for a shock when and if real communists take over and start going house to house to "interview" those "other intellectuals?"  Where is the Bunko Squad when we need 'em?

We have to come to find out he has autism so that explained much about his posts.
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Offline milos

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2015, 02:51:03 AM »
There are some Christians who claim that our inalienable rights come from God and come from the bible. Our constitution and declaration of independence is biblically and God derived. If one looks at the bible, it is a collection of stories that teach a point as to what happens if one disobeys God and what happens if one obeys. In the bible God has given series of commands over the centuries to various people. Where does it say in the bible that one has a right to anything whatsoever? What our founding fathers and other philosophers and intellectuals did was took these commands and made them into rights. A command and edict by God becomes a right.

For example, thou shalt not kill somehow transforms into a right to life. Thou shalt not do x or Thou shalt do x is equal to having x or non-x. This is what our founding fathers and other intellectuals do with all of their ruminations on rights and liberties at least those who claim it is biblical. Does this hold up? If it does shouldn’t it be consistent? God also wanted people to clothe the naked and feed the hungry. My question for conservative Christians, the colonial traditionalists and strict constitutionalists is as follows. If one has the right to life which is based upon a command and an edict by God.

If clothing and feeding the hungry is also a command by God then by logical consistency doesn’t one have the RIGHT to be clothed, fed and sheltered if one cannot clothe, feed or shelter himself? Why do colonial traditionalists, strict constitutionalists, Christian conservatives, and personal responsibility advocates have such inconsistent standards? If one must derive a right from a command or edict in one sense then shouldn’t one derive rights from commands from God across the whole board? Why or Why not?

Although it is obvious you are a socialist and that is the reason why you ask this question, it is actually another question: Whether we need human laws at all, or we just need faith in God? First Israelites didn't have human laws, they had only their faith in God. God thought state and human laws will spoil them. And that is what actually happens when man creates state and human laws, that human laws become secular and distant from God. But, if we agree that we must have some kind of state in order to protect ourselves, then we must have some human laws, too. But that means human laws should be minimalistic, in order to be less distant from God. Less human laws mean less distance from God - more human laws mean more distance from God. That is why we don't make all God's commandments into human laws, and why socialist state is more distant from God than capitalist state, because it has more human laws.
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Offline cubedemon

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2015, 09:30:30 AM »
Although it is obvious you are a socialist and that is the reason why you ask this question, it is actually another question: Whether we need human laws at all, or we just need faith in God? First Israelites didn't have human laws, they had only their faith in God. God thought state and human laws will spoil them. And that is what actually happens when man creates state and human laws, that human laws become secular and distant from God. But, if we agree that we must have some kind of state in order to protect ourselves, then we must have some human laws, too. But that means human laws should be minimalistic, in order to be less distant from God. Less human laws mean less distance from God - more human laws mean more distance from God. That is why we don't make all God's commandments into human laws, and why socialist state is more distant from God than capitalist state, because it has more human laws.

The reason I asked this question is so that I can achieve  completion in thought and in deed.  To do these things one must free one self from error.  Contradictions are ideas that are and aren't in the same instance.  Contradictions are a form of error.  To achieve completion one must free oneself from this form error.  If socialism and capitalism are free from contradiction then they're complete.  If not,  expunge the contradictions.  If expunging is not possible then discard the ideas and thoughts. To remove logical contradictions is the path to completion. 

If a set of inalienable rights are inconsistent to each other then they are not inalienable since to be something one can't not be something either.  For example, Typhoid Mary.  She claimed to have liberty to do what she did. Yet what she did was killing people.  Her liberty had to be taken away to save lives.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:47:32 AM by cubedemon »

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2015, 10:27:20 AM »
The reason I asked this question is so that I can achieve  completion in thought and in deed.  To do these things one must free one self from error.  Contradictions are ideas that are and aren't in the same instance.  Contradictions are a form of error.  To achieve completion one must free oneself from this form error.  If socialism and capitalism are free from contradiction then they're complete.  If not,  expunge the contradictions.  If expunging is not possible then discard the ideas and thoughts. To remove logical contradictions is the path to completion. 
There is no contradiction, socialism and capitalism are complete opposite ends of the spectrum, where one believes one exchanges goods and services equally, while the other interferes with the transaction, placing penalty and tax for said transaction.
One is free, while the other ystem is a leech.\

Quote
If a set of inalienable rights are inconsistent to each other then they are not inalienable since to be something one can't not be something either.  For example, Typhoid Mary.  She claimed to have liberty to do what she did. Yet what she did was killing people.  Her liberty had to be taken away to save lives.
She was delusional, she has no right to seize the right of another, therefore her actions necessitated her removal from society.
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Offline cubedemon

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2015, 10:54:57 AM »
Quote
She was delusional, she has no right to seize the right of another, therefore her actions necessitated her removal from society.

Agreed 100% with her removal of society.  For a right to be inalienable then the logic has to hold up in all iterations.   Let's say one makes the claim that All Swans are white.  If one finds a swan that is black then the claim that All Swans are white has been falsified.

If one can find a counter example that disproves a claim or maxim then the maxim or claim can't hold up.   The idea of liberty cannot be inalienable because it fails to be upheld as inalienable in at least one iteration which is the typhoid Mary situation.   To claim liberty as an inalienable which has been demonstrated to be true in all iterations due to other people's rights as well is falsified.   

One does have liberty within certain constraints but to claim it to be inalienable can't be accepted as truth.  It makes no sense to stand by the claim that liberty is an inalienable right.    What I am saying is that there is a black Swan.   

They made the correct decision to quarantine her and by not treating her liberty as inalienable.  Therefore, the lesson is that black swans exist so therefore one can't accept as true that All Swans are White.   

 

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