Author Topic: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights  (Read 5083 times)

Offline cubedemon

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Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« on: June 22, 2015, 11:42:15 PM »
There are some Christians who claim that our inalienable rights come from God and come from the bible. Our constitution and declaration of independence is biblically and God derived. If one looks at the bible, it is a collection of stories that teach a point as to what happens if one disobeys God and what happens if one obeys. In the bible God has given series of commands over the centuries to various people. Where does it say in the bible that one has a right to anything whatsoever? What our founding fathers and other philosophers and intellectuals did was took these commands and made them into rights. A command and edict by God becomes a right.

For example, thou shalt not kill somehow transforms into a right to life. Thou shalt not do x or Thou shalt do x is equal to having x or non-x. This is what our founding fathers and other intellectuals do with all of their ruminations on rights and liberties at least those who claim it is biblical. Does this hold up? If it does shouldn’t it be consistent? God also wanted people to clothe the naked and feed the hungry. My question for conservative Christians, the colonial traditionalists and strict constitutionalists is as follows. If one has the right to life which is based upon a command and an edict by God.

If clothing and feeding the hungry is also a command by God then by logical consistency doesn’t one have the RIGHT to be clothed, fed and sheltered if one cannot clothe, feed or shelter himself? Why do colonial traditionalists, strict constitutionalists, Christian conservatives, and personal responsibility advocates have such inconsistent standards? If one must derive a right from a command or edict in one sense then shouldn’t one derive rights from commands from God across the whole board? Why or Why not?



Offline Solar

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2015, 04:05:46 AM »
There are some Christians who claim that our inalienable rights come from God and come from the bible. Our constitution and declaration of independence is biblically and God derived. If one looks at the bible, it is a collection of stories that teach a point as to what happens if one disobeys God and what happens if one obeys. In the bible God has given series of commands over the centuries to various people. Where does it say in the bible that one has a right to anything whatsoever? What our founding fathers and other philosophers and intellectuals did was took these commands and made them into rights. A command and edict by God becomes a right.

For example, thou shalt not kill somehow transforms into a right to life. Thou shalt not do x or Thou shalt do x is equal to having x or non-x. This is what our founding fathers and other intellectuals do with all of their ruminations on rights and liberties at least those who claim it is biblical. Does this hold up? If it does shouldn’t it be consistent? God also wanted people to clothe the naked and feed the hungry. My question for conservative Christians, the colonial traditionalists and strict constitutionalists is as follows. If one has the right to life which is based upon a command and an edict by God.

If clothing and feeding the hungry is also a command by God then by logical consistency doesn’t one have the RIGHT to be clothed, fed and sheltered if one cannot clothe, feed or shelter himself? Why do colonial traditionalists, strict constitutionalists, Christian conservatives, and personal responsibility advocates have such inconsistent standards? If one must derive a right from a command or edict in one sense then shouldn’t one derive rights from commands from God across the whole board? Why or Why not?
Define clothed, define housed,
Death and life has no gray area, you are one of the two, while clothed can range anywhere from a potato sack, to a 3 piece suit, define clothed, or while you're at it, define shelter.

Am I not responsible for myself in any of these areas, such as having enough sense to get the Hell out of the rain, and seek a cave, or fallen tree, did God not give you the gift of free thought and to have enough sense to responsible for yourself?

Once you allow someone power over your welfare, you relinquish the rights they entail.
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Online supsalemgr

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2015, 04:46:52 AM »
There are some Christians who claim that our inalienable rights come from God and come from the bible. Our constitution and declaration of independence is biblically and God derived. If one looks at the bible, it is a collection of stories that teach a point as to what happens if one disobeys God and what happens if one obeys. In the bible God has given series of commands over the centuries to various people. Where does it say in the bible that one has a right to anything whatsoever? What our founding fathers and other philosophers and intellectuals did was took these commands and made them into rights. A command and edict by God becomes a right.

For example, thou shalt not kill somehow transforms into a right to life. Thou shalt not do x or Thou shalt do x is equal to having x or non-x. This is what our founding fathers and other intellectuals do with all of their ruminations on rights and liberties at least those who claim it is biblical. Does this hold up? If it does shouldn’t it be consistent? God also wanted people to clothe the naked and feed the hungry. My question for conservative Christians, the colonial traditionalists and strict constitutionalists is as follows. If one has the right to life which is based upon a command and an edict by God.

If clothing and feeding the hungry is also a command by God then by logical consistency doesn’t one have the RIGHT to be clothed, fed and sheltered if one cannot clothe, feed or shelter himself? Why do colonial traditionalists, strict constitutionalists, Christian conservatives, and personal responsibility advocates have such inconsistent standards? If one must derive a right from a command or edict in one sense then shouldn’t one derive rights from commands from God across the whole board? Why or Why not?

What individuals and/or entities should be responsible for doing all this clothing and housing?
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Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2015, 02:36:52 PM »
There are some Christians who claim that our inalienable rights come from God and come from the bible. Our constitution and declaration of independence is biblically and God derived. If one looks at the bible, it is a collection of stories that teach a point as to what happens if one disobeys God and what happens if one obeys. In the bible God has given series of commands over the centuries to various people. Where does it say in the bible that one has a right to anything whatsoever? What our founding fathers and other philosophers and intellectuals did was took these commands and made them into rights. A command and edict by God becomes a right.

For example, thou shalt not kill somehow transforms into a right to life. Thou shalt not do x or Thou shalt do x is equal to having x or non-x. This is what our founding fathers and other intellectuals do with all of their ruminations on rights and liberties at least those who claim it is biblical. Does this hold up? If it does shouldn’t it be consistent? God also wanted people to clothe the naked and feed the hungry. My question for conservative Christians, the colonial traditionalists and strict constitutionalists is as follows. If one has the right to life which is based upon a command and an edict by God.

If clothing and feeding the hungry is also a command by God then by logical consistency doesn’t one have the RIGHT to be clothed, fed and sheltered if one cannot clothe, feed or shelter himself? Why do colonial traditionalists, strict constitutionalists, Christian conservatives, and personal responsibility advocates have such inconsistent standards? If one must derive a right from a command or edict in one sense then shouldn’t one derive rights from commands from God across the whole board? Why or Why not?

You clearly have no depth of understanding of Scriptures much less correct application of them.

If you really are interested in understanding the Bible you need a much deeper level of education.

Online supsalemgr

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2015, 04:40:38 AM »
You clearly have no depth of understanding of Scriptures much less correct application of them.

If you really are interested in understanding the Bible you need a much deeper level of education.

I think cubey is a "hit & run" artist.
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Offline Solar

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2015, 05:46:27 AM »
I think cubey is a "hit & run" artist.
No, he came back and responded to one thread he posted, but I don't think he actually thought his ideas/views would be challenged.

I look at what he wrote, and the bubble in which he resides, a place where he never realized an opposing view existed beyond his tiny world of protected academia, all his peers, Profs, and family came from privilege, liberal privilege.
Sad really, his reality is not real, and it's not his fault in the least, and he's not alone.

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Offline cubedemon

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2015, 01:44:11 PM »
You clearly have no depth of understanding of Scriptures much less correct application of them.

If you really are interested in understanding the Bible you need a much deeper level of education.

You could be right. 

What does this mean right here?  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-60&version=NIV

I've heard the term "God given rights."  When I look and read the bible all I see is a collection of stories, parables, commands, commandments and statutes from God.   

Two of the edicts God gave our "Choose Life" and "Thou shalt not Kill."  Someway, somehow that is beyond my comprehension these two commands are transformed into a right to life given by God.  If this is true and I have a right to life that is derived from these commands then based upon the passages provided don't the hungry have the right to be fed and the thirsty have the right to be quenched.   

To claim that a right comes from a command in one subset of a given set and not apply it to the other subsets in the given set makes no sense.

Either all commands from God turn into rights that different parties have a right to since they're God given rights or rights do not exist at all and do not come from anything and all there is, is a series of commands, commandments or statues that come from God and nothing more.  Your beliefs and standards are inconsistent and I don't follow.

Offline Solar

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2015, 02:05:23 PM »
You could be right. 

What does this mean right here?  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-60&version=NIV

I've heard the term "God given rights."  When I look and read the bible all I see is a collection of stories, parables, commands, commandments and statutes from God.   

Two of the edicts God gave our "Choose Life" and "Thou shalt not Kill."  Someway, somehow that is beyond my comprehension these two commands are transformed into a right to life given by God.  If this is true and I have a right to life that is derived from these commands then based upon the passages provided don't the hungry have the right to be fed and the thirsty have the right to be quenched.   
To claim that a right comes from a command in one subset of a given set and not apply it to the other subsets in the given set makes no sense.
No, it ends at right to life, in the way that if you're attacked, you equally have the right to take the life attacking and trying to take yours.
Just because you have a right, conversely, it does not give you the right to take what others own, just to feed yourself, that falls under "Though Shall Not Steal".
This is where that critical thinking thing kicks in.

Quote
Either all commands from God turn into rights that different parties have a right to since they're God given rights or rights do not exist at all and do not come from anything and all there is, is a series of commands, commandments or statues that come from God and nothing more.  Your beliefs and standards are inconsistent and I don't follow.
We're all humans, God did not see different specie, so all Gods laws apply across the board.
 Rights do not allow you to oppress another with your Right, we all share in these rights..
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Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2015, 02:28:01 PM »
You could be right. 

What does this mean right here?  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-60&version=NIV

I've heard the term "God given rights."  When I look and read the bible all I see is a collection of stories, parables, commands, commandments and statutes from God.   

Two of the edicts God gave our "Choose Life" and "Thou shalt not Kill."  Someway, somehow that is beyond my comprehension these two commands are transformed into a right to life given by God.  If this is true and I have a right to life that is derived from these commands then based upon the passages provided don't the hungry have the right to be fed and the thirsty have the right to be quenched.   

To claim that a right comes from a command in one subset of a given set and not apply it to the other subsets in the given set makes no sense.

Either all commands from God turn into rights that different parties have a right to since they're God given rights or rights do not exist at all and do not come from anything and all there is, is a series of commands, commandments or statues that come from God and nothing more.  Your beliefs and standards are inconsistent and I don't follow.

Without going into great detail, I will point out that you have taken a few verses and ripped them from the context of what Jesus was teaching.  This was a small portion of His sermon on the Mt. of Olives..... known as the Olivet Discourse.

Chapters 24 and 25 of Matthew are specifically related to the Jewish Nation as related to end times prophecy.  This is the Seven Years of Tribulation which Jesus speaks. There is a direct parallel between the 24th chapter and  the seven Seals Judgements in Revelation. 

If you look at verse 40 of the passage which you posted, you will see that Jesus refers to these brothers and sisters of His.  He is not referring to Christians.... because the Church has already been raptured at this point in history.  He is talking about the Jewish people..... His ethnic brothers and sisters.

The Sheep and Goat judgment does not involve the Church.  It is those people who live through the great tribulation and suffered and died.  Although not all will die.  Some will remain when Jesus returns.

So, this passage is specific to a time and age which has yet to happen.

In Jesus' Church His children are indwelt with the Holy Spirit which speaks to their hearts.  They are called to heed the promptings of the Spirit.  He speaks to our hearts and directs us how and when to do things.  We are called to care for the orphans and widows IN THE CHURCH.  We are not called upon to feed and clothe the world.

Jesus said, "For the poor you always have with you, and whenever you wish, you can do them good; but you do not always have Me.  (Mark 14:7, John 12:8)

Jesus Himself did not help everyone He saw that had a need.  He was selective with His divine help to people.  We should follow his example.  When the Spirit prompts us to help, we should do so.

As far as our Right to Life is concerned...... we are created by God in His image and He numbers the days of our life.  IF (conditional) we put our trust and faith in Him, He will provide for us...... that is our basic needs.... food, clothing, shelter.  These things are not God given "rights" to everyone.   These are His blessings to His children.

This is the very abbreviated edition of the issues you address.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 02:32:22 PM by kroz »

Offline cubedemon

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2015, 03:52:20 PM »
Without going into great detail, I will point out that you have taken a few verses and ripped them from the context of what Jesus was teaching.  This was a small portion of His sermon on the Mt. of Olives..... known as the Olivet Discourse.

Chapters 24 and 25 of Matthew are specifically related to the Jewish Nation as related to end times prophecy.  This is the Seven Years of Tribulation which Jesus speaks. There is a direct parallel between the 24th chapter and  the seven Seals Judgements in Revelation. 

If you look at verse 40 of the passage which you posted, you will see that Jesus refers to these brothers and sisters of His.  He is not referring to Christians.... because the Church has already been raptured at this point in history.  He is talking about the Jewish people..... His ethnic brothers and sisters.

The Sheep and Goat judgment does not involve the Church.  It is those people who live through the great tribulation and suffered and died.  Although not all will die.  Some will remain when Jesus returns.

So, this passage is specific to a time and age which has yet to happen.

In Jesus' Church His children are indwelt with the Holy Spirit which speaks to their hearts.  They are called to heed the promptings of the Spirit.  He speaks to our hearts and directs us how and when to do things.  We are called to care for the orphans and widows IN THE CHURCH.  We are not called upon to feed and clothe the world.

Jesus said, "For the poor you always have with you, and whenever you wish, you can do them good; but you do not always have Me.  (Mark 14:7, John 12:8)

Jesus Himself did not help everyone He saw that had a need.  He was selective with His divine help to people.  We should follow his example.  When the Spirit prompts us to help, we should do so.

As far as our Right to Life is concerned...... we are created by God in His image and He numbers the days of our life.  IF (conditional) we put our trust and faith in Him, He will provide for us...... that is our basic needs.... food, clothing, shelter.  These things are not God given "rights" to everyone.   These are His blessings to His children.

This is the very abbreviated edition of the issues you address.

Just to make sure I am understanding things clearly and without error in my understanding will you answer two more questions if you do not mind.  I appreciate it. 

1.  Who are God's children?

2.  Can you define what the Church is?

I suspect in a number of my writings I may have errors in my thinking and my interpretation of things. 

Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2015, 04:04:05 PM »
Just to make sure I am understanding things clearly and without error in my understanding will you answer two more questions if you do not mind.  I appreciate it. 

1.  Who are God's children?

2.  Can you define what the Church is?

I suspect in a number of my writings I may have errors in my thinking and my interpretation of things.

The way in which I used the term "God's children" is those who embrace Him as their Savior.  That would be Christians. 

The Church is made up of Believers in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior...... it has nothing to do with denomination.  There are true believers in all christian denominations.

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2015, 05:08:51 PM »
The way in which I used the term "God's children" is those who embrace Him as their Savior.  That would be Christians. 

The Church is made up of Believers in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior...... it has nothing to do with denomination.  There are true believers in all christian denominations.

So the Children that have not heard of God or Jesus before they die will just have to bit the bullet.   :rolleyes:   
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Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2015, 06:17:47 PM »
So the Children that have not heard of God or Jesus before they die will just have to bit the bullet.   :rolleyes:

Romans 1 tells us that God has revealed Himself to all men through nature.

I personally know of a Cambodian woman who told me she looked at the birds in the air and trees and knew that her mother's idol did not make them.  She shook her fist and demanded that God reveal Himself to her.  She said, "I don't know who you are but I want to know you!"

She later came to a saving knowledge of her Creator during her incarceration in Indonesia.  She was a "boat refugee" that was captured by the Indonesians and my husband and I taught them about Christ.

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2015, 06:28:44 PM »
Romans 1 tells us that God has revealed Himself to all men through nature.

I personally know of a Cambodian woman who told me she looked at the birds in the air and trees and knew that her mother's idol did not make them.  She shook her fist and demanded that God reveal Himself to her.  She said, "I don't know who you are but I want to know you!"

She later came to a saving knowledge of her Creator during her incarceration in Indonesia.  She was a "boat refugee" that was captured by the Indonesians and my husband and I taught them about Christ.

Like I said "So the Children that have not heard of God or Jesus before they die will just have to bit the bullet."    What does a 1 mouth old or even a 6 mouth old kid know about nature.
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.  ~ Ronald Reagan ~

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Offline kroz

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Re: Commands From God Vs Our Inalienable Rights
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2015, 06:53:10 PM »
Like I said "So the Children that have not heard of God or Jesus before they die will just have to bit the bullet."    What does a 1 mouth old or even a 6 mouth old kid know about nature.

Okay, this is a very deep subject that requires more than a few sentences.  But I will say that I believe the Scriptures when they say that "Before the foundation of the earth, God pre-ordained" those who would become believers in Him.  That is a very difficult doctrine, but it is pure Scripture.  I could give you many scriptures to support this.

The point is..... God ordains who will become His people.  That includes infants and all mankind.  His sheep will hear His voice.

Romans 9 tells us that God created some for destruction.  That is a difficult doctrine.... but truth.  Some people will never become believers because it is not providential. 

I think the best way of looking at it is that if there were no blackness, we would be unable to understand the blessing of light.  Sin exists because we can better appreciate and understand God's grace. 

The old testament law was given to us as a tutor (according to Hebrews) that we might be able to understand good vs. evil.  That we might be able to see the wonder of God's grace to sinners. 

God reveals Himself to all men, but not all men will respond to Him.

 

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