Can a fundamentalist please explain these bible verses to me?

[Sci Fi Fan]

So you are saying that only good people should have free will?

So you are saying that, if you could do literally anything with a gesture, you wouldn't stop a serial murderer because he has the free will to kill?

[IBeMe]

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

This is just an ignorant-shotgun rant, taking scriptures out of context; trying to blame the evil of man against man, on God.

God created the heaven and the earth, but He didn't create the present state of the world today, or back then. The world, then and now, is the creation of man; although God may choose to intervene as He sees fit.

God warned them for many generations, sending prophets to plead with them (many of whom they killed), that if they didn't turn from their wicked ways, they would fall into the hand of evil men that would do such things as; "their pregnant women ripped open."

Hey, if you want to be an atheist, don't be such a wimp.
I used to be an atheist, confirmed under fire.

I never felt the need to attack others believes, a good atheist doesn't care what anyone else thinks.
You are a wimp atheist; driven to try to tare down other's believes, so that you can hold on to your own ... dramatic show of weakness.

If you can't be a strong atheist, don't even think about being a Christian.
Christians will be tested by God and man, wimps need not apply.

[Sci Fi Fan]

This is just an ignorant-shotgun rant, taking scriptures out of context; trying to blame the evil of man against man, on God.

If you saw a man murdering someone and could, with a snap of your fingers, stop it, would you?

Or would you just ignore the crime, because the murderer has the "free will" to do whatever he wants and it's the victim's responsibility?

[IBeMe]

If you saw a man murdering someone and could, with a snap of your fingers, stop it, would you?

Or would you just ignore the crime, because the murderer has the "free will" to do whatever he wants and it's the victim's responsibility?

Hey, you OK?
What the hell you talking about?
Is it time for the meds?

[Sci Fi Fan]

What the hell you talking about?

Since you obviously fail at basic reading comprehension, let me spell it out for you.

You argued that it's OK for God to let murderers do what they do because they have free will.  OK then, by that logic, if you had the power to stop a murder, you wouldn't lift a finger to protect the murderer's "free will".

Of course, you'd order your "chosen people" to burn whores at the stake and stone to death disobedient teenagers, but hey, whoever said an almighty being needed to be rational?

[IBeMe]

You argued that it's OK for God to let murderers do what they do because they have free will.

I don't know where you got that.
Take another toke, maybe things will clear up.

[Sci Fi Fan]

I don't know where you got that.

Oh, I don't know, the "I'll send prophets who are themselves murderers [Moses ordered the slaughtering of infants] to warn people not to kill, rather than stopping all murders myself".

[IBeMe]

Oh, I don't know, the "I'll send prophets who are themselves murderers [Moses ordered the slaughtering of infants] to warn people not to kill, rather than stopping all murders myself".

You seem to be extremely confused.
First you said, "You argued" something I never said.
I asked, where you got it, and you replied with the mess above.

Hey, if just want to carry on an argument with yourself, have fun.

[Yawn]

Oh, I don't know, the "I'll send prophets who are themselves murderers [Moses ordered the slaughtering of infants] to warn people not to kill, rather than stopping all murders myself".

God's words to Abraham, in promising HIS descendents the Land of the Amorites (but not in Abraham's day):

"And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity (lawlessness) of the Amorites is not yet full.

He was giving the Amorites time to repent (turn from EVIL), but He (the Creator) understands human nature and knew they would only become worse and worse (the ABOMINATION of homosexuality, child sacrifice, adultery, murder etc), and so the promise was made to give that Land and the Land of the surrounding nations to the Children of Abraham through the line of Isaac.

Those who understand that the Lord is the same, yesterday, today and forever, will be filled with FEAR over where modern day America is going.

[JustKari]

So you are saying that, if you could do literally anything with a gesture, you wouldn't stop a serial murderer because he has the free will to kill?

No, I wouldn't.  First of all, sin is sin.  Both the murder and the victim are equals in the eyes of God when neither are believers.  Both have an equal shot at redemption and forgiveness.  This life is not the end all and be all.  Second of all, if God rescues every person in peril, then people will believe in him simply for personal preservation on this Earth, God never promises any such thing.

[MFA]

I will say with full sincerity...

Based on what you have posted on this forum so far, I say with full sincerity that I doubt that is true.

...that I've tried coming up with every possible rationalization for these verses, and have even researched justifications from Christian sites...and I still haven't come up with an excuse for this disgusting embarrassment to the human conscience.  Please read these verses.



Hosea 16:13

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

And who will do this?

Judges 21:10-24


    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem.  They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards.  When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!  And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding.  Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'"  So the men of Benjamin did as they were told.  They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance.  Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them.  So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

On what basis do you judge this?  Some kind of absolute morality or "absolute moral position"?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29


    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Better off to do nothing?  What should be the result?  And if you could change the consequence, how important would it be to you to enact such a change?

Deuteronomy 22:23-24



    If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Have you really searched out Christian sites for justification for this?  If so, you must have some kind of understanding.  Do you understand the importance marriage in that culture?  Or are you judging it based on the casual, immoral, "throwaway" view of marriage in ours?  Are you judging it based on our obsession with sex in our culture?

Exodus 21:7-11



    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Do you understand the purpose of slavery in that culture?  Do you also understand the identity of women in that culture as wives and mothers--that those who were not wives or mothers not only had no role in culture but no means of support?

These are just the ones about rape, and one about cutting open pregnant women.  I can literally find hundreds of verses about genocide, torture, etc.  Heck, I can find passages of God mandating abortions.  This is why any Christian who isn't a blind follower should actually read the Bible, on his/her own time, front to back.  It's probably the best way to make atheists.

Literally hundreds?  Do you know what "literally" means?

[Sci Fi Fan]

Both the murder and the victim are equals in the eyes of God when neither are believers.

But not to you.  I'm certain you don't regard me the same way you'd regard a serial killer.  But if God does so, when don't you, given that you follow his moral code?

Both have an equal shot at redemption and forgiveness.

In this case, the victim won't ever get another shot...because he/she will be dead within seconds.

Second of all, if God rescues every person in peril, then people will believe in him simply for personal preservation on this Earth, God never promises any such thing.

In other words, God cares more about people worshiping him...then actually helping said people?

Wouldn't you think less of a great philanthropist if he demanded that every recipient of his good will bow down and label him The Magnificent and give thanks to a giant statue of him every Sunday?  Wouldn't you think even less of him if he actually had enough money to end all of their problems with a fraction of his resources, but chooses not to so that he can continue receiving praise?

[MFA]

In other words, God cares more about people worshiping him...then actually helping said people?

Wouldn't you think less of a great philanthropist if he demanded that every recipient of his good will bow down and label him The Magnificent and give thanks to a giant statue of him every Sunday?  Wouldn't you think even less of him if he actually had enough money to end all of their problems with a fraction of his resources, but chooses not to so that he can continue receiving praise?

You're really missing the point.  God is in the process of recruiting humanity to be in relationship with him and fulfill his kingdom on earth.  When his people don't do that, people are killed, sold into slavery, etc.

You kind of have it right...when we see injustice, we should be sitting up and taking notice.  God will not interfere with the free will of humanity, meaning that he will not interfere with the pimp recruiting child prostitutes, or the westerner flying to Thailand to take advantage of said child prostitutes, nor will he interfere with our inaction as we complain about the situation and do nothing to stop it.

In which cases should he interfere with free will?  Where is that line?

[Sci Fi Fan]

God will not interfere with the free will of humanity, meaning that he will not interfere with the pimp recruiting child prostitutes,

But you would, if it was within your power, would you not?  Would you not vilify a bystander who does nothing to report a heinous felony?  Would you not condemn a leader who does nothing to stop crime and poverty simply because he feels that it is not his responsibility?  Why does God follow lesser moral standards than the average human?  Why do you defend God's choice to follow "free will" so absolutely, even though you wouldn't tolerate the presence of a human who tried adhering to the same doctrine?

If you have children, I would wager that you would not allow them to stick their fingers down an electrical socket because they have the free will to do so.

[Yawn]

You've already been told. This world is left to US. WE asked God to butt-out and He lets us have the world WE create. And yes, YOU are responsible to do good.  That God who is letting us have a belly full is judging you on your actions as well as your inactions.