Author Topic: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.  (Read 4304 times)

Offline Yawn

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Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2013, 04:55:06 PM »
Wow.  I said it was in John's Revelation.  I presumed you'd be familiar with it.  Sorry.

Revelation 1:10-11 - "On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'"

Yes, I am familiar with it. That is why I said I was waiting for you to use it and that it doesn't mean what you think it does.  Why does this mean Sunday (the first day of the week) to you? Where does it say this is talking about Sunday? The fact is, it is talking about The Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the prophetic time immediately after the Great Tribulation. It has NOTHING to do with Sunday.

Remember that John uses the word "Sabbath" 9 times in his Gospel.  Clearly he is not referring to the Sabbath.

There is the WEEKLY Sabbath and also the ANNUAL Sabbaths (the Holy Days). If you think any of them mean anything else, please quote them and explain.

I pull 'em all.  Why do you presume that I am one of those that says, "Christians must obey the 10 Commandments"?  That's not scriptural.

Why do you think I believe you do? I don't. You are in REBELLION against God over the Sabbath. It is a COMMANDMENT for all of Mankind. You reject it. So how could I think you advocate observing ALL of His COMMANDMENTS when you clearly don't. You follow Simon Magus and I foillow Jesus, the apostles and prophets.

You're blinded by what you think I have said.  Christians are not obligated to keep the law.  Not only that, but Christians that attempt to earn or keep justification or sanctification through the law (including the 10 Commandments), are effectively denying the efficacy of Christ's death and resurrection.  That's in scripture.
Really??? So if you DON'T murder, or steal or lie, then you are trying to "earn" salvation?  See how you're trying to justify sin ONLY when it comes to the Sabbath? Remember when I pointed out to you the definition of sin. Sin IS the transgression (breaking) of the Law--I John 3:4. That's why I said you're in REBELLION against God and are actually worshiping Satan by insisting that keeping Sunday is necessary, but keeping Sabbath as God COMMANDED is "earning salvation."  How twisted your mind has become to create that line of reasoning in your mind.

If you haven't murdered, I have to ask, "WHY are you trying to earn your salvation???"

Why do you reject the REAL Jesus (Yeshua)???

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Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments." 18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "

And....

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.--Rev 12

Offline MFA

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Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2013, 05:47:00 PM »
Sorry, but your input doesn't count here.

Yes, it does.

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The Sabbath argument is the SAME as one saying it is a CRIME to murder, and the other saying it is not.  Both (Keep the Sabbath and You shall not murder) are part of the SAME Law of God.

Well, you're wrong, because God's prophets passed God's judgments on the nations around Israel--for their treatment of the poor, for murder, for injustice.  But never for failure to keep the Sabbath.

Why?

Because that is part of the Mosaic Covenant.  It doesn't apply to non-Jews.

Offline MFA

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Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2013, 05:48:16 PM »
MFA,

HERE are the scriptures related to the "Lord's Day" that you seem unable to provide to make your case.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/3Verses.htm

CLAIM #1… Acts 20:7 “And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.”


CLAIM #2… I Corinthians 16:2 “Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [god] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.”


CLAIM #3… Revelation 1:10 “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet”


CLAIM #4… Mark 2:23-28 "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.  And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?  And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?  How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."




CLAIM #5… Colossians 2:16-17  “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”




CLAIM #6… Galatians 4:9-11, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.



CLAIM #7… Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


Well, I did provide some of them.  Did you miss them?  You imply that provided none.  Hmmm...

Offline MFA

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Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2013, 05:54:09 PM »
Yes, I am familiar with it. That is why I said I was waiting for you to use it and that it doesn't mean what you think it does.  Why does this mean Sunday (the first day of the week) to you? Where does it say this is talking about Sunday? The fact is, it is talking about The Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the prophetic time immediately after the Great Tribulation. It has NOTHING to do with Sunday.

The "Day of the Lord" (referencing OT prophetic literature) is not a "single day."  Why would John say that?

But wait, this phrase is only used once in the Bible.  Here.  By John.

The "Day of the Lord" is used for the "day of God's judgment" or the "day of God's deliverance."

If what you're saying here is true, then why did you say "the Lord's Day" is the Sabbath"?  Seems you're contradicting your original contention.

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There is the WEEKLY Sabbath and also the ANNUAL Sabbaths (the Holy Days). If you think any of them mean anything else, please quote them and explain.

Well, actually, when John says "Sabbath" he's referring to Saturday.  That's why, when he says "the Lord's Day," he's not referring to the Sabbath.

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Why do you think I believe you do? I don't. You are in REBELLION against God over the Sabbath. It is a COMMANDMENT for all of Mankind. You reject it. So how could I think you advocate observing ALL of His COMMANDMENTS when you clearly don't. You follow Simon Magus and I foillow Jesus, the apostles and prophets.

For all of mankind?  Where does scripture say that?

And...bringing Simon Magus into it? What happened to "proof from scripture"?  Aren't you being more than a bit hypocritical when you keep bringing that in?

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Really??? So if you DON'T murder, or steal or lie, then you are trying to "earn" salvation?

No.  You're misrepresenting the teaching of the New Testament.

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See how you're trying to justify sin ONLY when it comes to the Sabbath?

Wrong again.  You're not really trying to understand what I'm trying to say, are you?

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Remember when I pointed out to you the definition of sin. Sin IS the transgression (breaking) of the Law--I John 3:4. That's why I said you're in REBELLION against God and are actually worshiping Satan by insisting that keeping Sunday is necessary, but keeping Sabbath as God COMMANDED is "earning salvation."  How twisted your mind has become to create that line of reasoning in your mind.

So why are we to keep the law?

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If you haven't murdered, I have to ask, "WHY are you trying to earn your salvation???"

Totally missing the point.

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Why do you reject the REAL Jesus (Yeshua)???

Lose the arrogance, bud.

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And....

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.--Rev 12

What is the relevance?  You're sounding rabid.

Offline Yawn

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Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2013, 06:37:18 PM »
You're not a serious debater. Truth is irrelevant to you. I'm done with you.

Offline MFA

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Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2013, 06:57:26 PM »
You're not a serious debater. Truth is irrelevant to you. I'm done with you.

Translation:  "I'm out of my depth and am unable to deal with a higher level of processing thought and information so I bow out when my dearly held presuppositions are challenged.  Thus, I will make a judgmental comment right before I bow out to feel better about myself (of course, forgetting that I was the one that originally accused you of being judgmental)."

That about right?

This is the important thing that you're missing (besides the judgment of the Jerusalem Council, which you have blatantly and repeatedly ignored):

Galatians 2:15-16 - "We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified."

Galatians 2:21 - "...if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 3:3 - "Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?"

Galatians 5:1 - "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

Galatians 5:4 - "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 07:02:00 PM by MFA »

Offline kramarat

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Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2013, 06:01:44 AM »
Sorry, but your input doesn't count here.

The Sabbath argument is the SAME as one saying it is a CRIME to murder, and the other saying it is not.  Both (Keep the Sabbath and You shall not murder) are part of the SAME Law of God.
If you're going to participate in this thread, try to offer something intelligent. I'm having enough trouble keeping "Made for Adsense" focused.

You are quite correct.

Your profound ability to cast stones and pass judgement on others is very evident.

I'm gonna give you one more hint before I leave..............

A person can memorize the equation 2 + 2= 4, and use it to impress others.

If they have no conceptual understanding of the number 2, then the number 4 is equally meaningless.

Memorizing and quoting scripture is much the same.

Online walkstall

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Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2013, 06:41:53 AM »
You are quite correct.

Your profound ability to cast stones and pass judgement on others is very evident.

I'm gonna give you one more hint before I leave..............

A person can memorize the equation 2 + 2= 4, and use it to impress others.

If they have no conceptual understanding of the number 2, then the number 4 is equally meaningless.

Memorizing and quoting scripture is much the same.



A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

"Where is the $2,500 in savings Democrats and Obama promised me?"

Offline kramarat

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Re: America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.
« Reply #83 on: January 13, 2013, 06:57:56 AM »




I suppose I should have thanked him for doing all of the heavy lifting in proving my point. :wink:

 

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