America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.

Started by JoReba, January 05, 2013, 01:40:57 PM

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Yawn

REMEMBER the Sabbath Day--to KEEP IT HOLY. Six days shall you labor, but the seventh day is the Sabbath OF THE Lord Your God. In it you shall not do any work.

Only those in REBELLION against the God of Israel would argue that this is open to interpretation.  Your hostility to this clear COMMANDMENT tells me about your relationship with the Lord of the Sabbath.

MFA

Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 01:46:12 PM
REMEMBER the Sabbath Day--to KEEP IT HOLY. Six days shall you labor, but the seventh day is the Sabbath OF THE Lord Your God. In it you shall not do any work.

Only those in REBELLION against the God of Israel would argue that this is open to interpretation.  Your hostility to this clear COMMANDMENT tells me about your relationship with the Lord of the Sabbath.

HOW DO YOU "KEEP THE SABBATH"?

Jesus did work on the Sabbath.  He claimed that his Father did work on the Sabbath.  The priests did work on the Sabbath.

Surely you are not so blindly fundamentalist about this that you cannot think through these questions beyond the black and white...

Do you know the Jewish definition of "work"?  Do you turn on a light switch on a Saturday?  You're breaking the Sabbath.  There is obviously interpretation involved.  That's why there are reams and reams of definition in Judaism as to what constitutes "work."

Please.  Think.  Answer.

Yawn

#62
Made for Adsense (MFA), I have asked REPEATEDLY for you to furnish proof that the Church of God abandoned the Sabbath for SUNday. You have yet to furnish that proof. Instead, you and the other have gone the personal attack route because you cannot honestly defend your position.

I will admit that the Counterfeit Church (founded by Simon Magus), did change the day of worship to SUNday around 360 Ad.  Can you show me BIBLICAL refrences that what you had ORIGINALLY said is true?

I await your SCRIPTURAL proof.

Yawn

Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:50:26 PM
HOW DO YOU "KEEP THE SABBATH"?

Jesus did work on the Sabbath.  He claimed that his Father did work on the Sabbath.  The priests did work on the Sabbath.

Surely you are not so blindly fundamentalist about this that you cannot think through these questions beyond the black and white...

Do you know the Jewish definition of "work"?  Do you turn on a light switch on a Saturday?  You're breaking the Sabbath.  There is obviously interpretation involved.  That's why there are reams and reams of definition in Judaism as to what constitutes "work."

Please.  Think.  Answer.

I will delve further into Keeping the Sabbath when you answer your ORIGINAL argument about the Church abandoning the 4th COMMANDMENT for another day.

You keep trying to change the subject rather than admit error.

Deal with the original discussion FIRST, and then we can move forward.

MFA

Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 01:52:03 PM
Made for Adsense (MFA), I have asked REPEATEDLY for you to furnish proof that the Church of God abandoned the Sabbath for SUNday. You have yet to furnish that proof. Instead, you and the other have gone the personal attack route because you cannot honestly defend your position.

You asked for proof.  I gave you proof.

Then you changed the goalposts and asked for scriptural proof.  There are hints (although ambiguous) in the Bible, of which I gave you some.

Now you're saying I never gave you proof.  Are you being deliberately dishonest?  Or is this a mistake?

QuoteI will admit that the Counterfeit Church (founded by Simon Magus), did change the day of worship to SUNday around 360 Ad.  Can you show me BIBLICAL refrences that what you had ORIGINALLY said is true?

I already gave a reference to the change which dates to early second century.  So...at least 200 years before you say the change happened.  Why are you ignoring that?

QuoteI await your SCRIPTURAL proof.

John was on the Island of Patmos on "the Lord's Day."  In his Gospel, he uses the word "Sabbath" 9 times.  If he meant "Sabbath" in his Revelation, why did he not say it?  This is evidence that they are two different days.  You'd be hard-pressed to make the case that he is referring to the Sabbath when he said "the Lord's Day."

Yawn

#65
Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 01:59:18 PM
You asked for proof.  I gave you proof.

Then you changed the goalposts and asked for scriptural proof.  There are hints (although ambiguous) in the Bible, of which I gave you some.

Now you're saying I never gave you proof.  Are you being deliberately dishonest?  Or is this a mistake?

I already gave a reference to the change which dates to early second century.  So...at least 200 years before you say the change happened.  Why are you ignoring that?

John was on the Island of Patmos on "the Lord's Day."  In his Gospel, he uses the word "Sabbath" 9 times.  If he meant "Sabbath" in his Revelation, why did he not say it?  This is evidence that they are two different days.  You'd be hard-pressed to make the case that he is referring to the Sabbath when he said "the Lord's Day."

No, you made statements that the disciple abandoned Sabbath for Sunday. You gave no proof.  Provide the SCRIPTURAL proof. I've given you many chances to make your case. You're not even as good as most Sunday keepers. I've heard ALL of the arguments. Do I have to do your job for you?  I was expecting a more worthy opponent.
QuoteThen you changed the goalposts and asked for scriptural proof.  There are hints (although ambiguous) in the Bible, of which I gave you some.
I won't move forward with you in this discussion until you can make your case that GOD'S Sabbath was CHANGED to Sunday.  WHY are you so hostile to GOD'S Sabbath?  That tells me boatloads.

Of course, in the RELIGION FORUM, in a discussion between "Christians", I would assume that "proof" means nothing but SCRIPTURAL proof. Why would it mean anything less to you?????

BTW, did you know Daniel said the mark of the Antichrist would be that he would change Times & Laws?  Which Church did that, and even BRAGS about it?  That's right, the Church of Simon Magus.


MFA

Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 02:19:47 PM
No, you made statements that the disciple abandoned Sabbath for Sunday. You gave no proof.  Provide the SCRIPTURAL proof. I've given you many chances to make your case. You're not even as good as most Sunday keepers. I've heard ALL of the arguments. Do I have to do your job for you?  I was expecting a more worthy opponent.I won't move forward with you in this discussion until you can make your case that GOD'S Sabbath was CHANGED to Sunday.  WHY are you so hostile to GOD'S Sabbath?  That tells me boatloads.

I never said "the Sabbath was CHANGED to Sunday."  When did I ever say that?

My position is that Jewish Christians kept the Sabbath but met together as followers of Christ including gentile Christians on the day after the Sabbath.

QuoteOf course, in the RELIGION FORUM, in a discussion between "Christians", I would assume that "proof" means nothing but SCRIPTURAL proof. Why would it mean anything less to you?????

I think your assumption is illegitimate.  It is certainly reasonable to introduce the documented practices of the early Christians.  It's not scripture, but it certainly does mean something.

QuoteBTW, did you know Daniel said the mark of the Antichrist would be that he would change Times & Laws?  Which Church did that, and even BRAGS about it?  That's right, the Church of Simon Magus.

You know what?  I think you need to start a different thread on your diatribe against the Roman Catholic Church.  It's not really adding to this discussion.  It is certainly not scriptural.  The words "Roman Catholic Church" do not appear in scripture.  Neither does "Church of Simon Magus."  In fact, Simon the Magus was in incidental character in Acts.  Everything to which you refer about him is extra-biblical and probably more based on tradition than anything else.

So, (1) put it on another thread, and (2) if you want to prove stuff just from scripture then you gotta lose the Simon the Magus stuff.

Yawn

All of these endless posts of yours, and I have asked in nearly every thread that you prove your claim that the early Church abandoned the Sabbath which GOD clearly COMMANDS.

You make endless posts and constantly change the topic but will not prove that point.  Until you do, I will ignore your claims.

Yawn

Quote from: MFA on January 08, 2013, 01:40:55 PM
Well, except that the disciples met together on "the Lord's Day"; in fact, Jewish followers of Jesus would meet at the Temple and then congregate together uniquely the next day.  When gentiles became followers, they didn't participate in Jewish worship but met only with other followers of Jesus on "the Lord's Day."  Nowhere in scripture is the Sabbath called "the Lord's Day."

HERE is your original claim that I keep asking you to prove.  Will you do it now?

MFA

Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:24:00 PM
HERE is your original claim that I keep asking you to prove.  Will you do it now?

Okay, so just to be clear, I never said "the Sabbath was changed."  Neither did I say that "the disciples did not keep the Sabbath."  I said that Jewish Christians kept the Jewish Sabbath.  Gentile believers did not.

How do I know this?

Because John refers to "the Lord's Day" and very early history attests to the fact "the Lord's Day" was Sunday.
Because there is no evidence that gentile believers worshiped on the Sabbath.

This is confirmed by the Jerusalem Council which did not require gentile Christians to observe Mosaic Law (the terms of the first covenant); they were required to abide by three requirements:  maintain sexual purity, abstain from meat with blood in it, and eschew idolatry.

You're contesting, on the other hand, that at one point in history, centuries after Jesus' resurrection, a political entity claiming to represent the Church of Jesus Christ mandated a sweeping change of worship practice, and all followers of Jesus meekly followed along--until some Christians smartened up quite a while later.

I've already proven that your timeline here is wrong but it stands to reason that this kind of political power would be difficult, if not impossible, to enact.  It would also be pointless, unless you presume a successful satanic or pagan conspiracy to infiltrate the Church and take it over.

Yawn

Quote from: MFA on January 12, 2013, 03:38:23 PM


How do I know this?

Because John refers to "the Lord's Day" and very early history attests to the fact "the Lord's Day" was Sunday.
Because there is no evidence that gentile believers worshiped on the Sabbath.



Please give the SCRIPTURAL reference to "the Lord's Day" that you keep referring to. Then we will discuss it. Hint: it doesn't mean what you WANT it to mean.

BTW, the Sabbath COMMANDMENT is part of the Foundational Law. It applies to ALL Mankind if they submit to the One True God. It is not a part of the "Law of Moses." Why do you insist on pulling THAT Commandment from the 10 and not, You shall not murder, or You shall not steal.

Again, your natural hostility to THAT Commandment should reveal something very sinister about what/who has you under his spell.

kramarat

#71
Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:50:31 PM
Please give the SCRIPTURAL reference to "the Lord's Day" that you keep referring to. Then we will discuss it. Hint: it doesn't mean what you WANT it to mean.

BTW, the Sabbath COMMANDMENT is part of the Foundational Law. It applies to ALL Mankind if they submit to the One True God. It is not a part of the "Law of Moses." Why do you insist on pulling THAT Commandment from the 10 and not, You shall not murder, or You shall not steal.

Again, your natural hostility to THAT Commandment should reveal something very sinister about what/who has you under his spell.

Hint: Open your heart to Jesus and his Father, and these stupid conversations become moot.

You are missing the forest for the trees. Keep on proving it.

The Bible was never intended to become a contest of who understands it better; nor was it intended for particular religions to share the limelight with Jesus Christ. :glare:

Yawn

Sorry, but your input doesn't count here.

The Sabbath argument is the SAME as one saying it is a CRIME to murder, and the other saying it is not.  Both (Keep the Sabbath and You shall not murder) are part of the SAME Law of God.
If you're going to participate in this thread, try to offer something intelligent. I'm having enough trouble keeping "Made for Adsense" focused.

Yawn

#73
MFA,

HERE are the scriptures related to the "Lord's Day" that you seem unable to provide to make your case.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/3Verses.htm

CLAIM #1... Acts 20:7 "And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."


CLAIM #2... I Corinthians 16:2 "Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [god] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."


CLAIM #3... Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet"


CLAIM #4... Mark 2:23-28 "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.  And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?  And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?  How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."




CLAIM #5... Colossians 2:16-17  "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."




CLAIM #6... Galatians 4:9-11, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.



CLAIM #7... Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.




MFA

Quote from: Yawn on January 12, 2013, 03:50:31 PM
Please give the SCRIPTURAL reference to "the Lord's Day" that you keep referring to. Then we will discuss it. Hint: it doesn't mean what you WANT it to mean.

Wow.  I said it was in John's Revelation.  I presumed you'd be familiar with it.  Sorry.

Revelation 1:10-11 - "On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'"

Remember that John uses the word "Sabbath" 9 times in his Gospel.  Clearly he is not referring to the Sabbath.

QuoteBTW, the Sabbath COMMANDMENT is part of the Foundational Law. It applies to ALL Mankind if they submit to the One True God. It is not a part of the "Law of Moses." Why do you insist on pulling THAT Commandment from the 10 and not, You shall not murder, or You shall not steal.

I pull 'em all.  Why do you presume that I am one of those that says, "Christians must obey the 10 Commandments"?  That's not scriptural.

QuoteAgain, your natural hostility to THAT Commandment should reveal something very sinister about what/who has you under his spell.

You're blinded by what you think I have said.  Christians are not obligated to keep the law.  Not only that, but Christians that attempt to earn or keep justification or sanctification through the law (including the 10 Commandments), are effectively denying the efficacy of Christ's death and resurrection.  That's in scripture.