Air Force dumps ‘so help me God’ from enlistment oath

[Solar]

Christ doesn't have to be mentioned. Some religions have a lose concept of the idea of a God or Gods (Daoism, spiritualist religions, etc) and others simply don't believe in a God, so no need to force them to swear on something they don't believe to make you feel better.

Irrelevant to the question. She claimed " One can love their country and not believe in the Christian God" when referring to the oath. No where in any oath is a particular religion named.
God can mean anything to anyone, even a freakin atheist can find solace in something beyond their grasp of conscious/conscience. Claim you yourself are God to yourself for that matter.

Meaning swearing an oath of loyalty as a tradition, creating a bond that those around you serving the country and it's culture find allegiance too as well as one another, like the guys you may one day rely on to save your ass.
Of course you've probably never served, so you probably can't grasp the significance to an oath, a simple freakin oath that every soldier has sworn to down through the centuries.

One to this day I hold in the highest esteem, which is why I'm fighting Marxism to this very day, because I swore I would protect this country and it's Constitution.
The whole idea of the oath is that one is telling themselves this is a sacrifice I'm willing to make, a moment one decides there's no turning back, that once you take this pledge, you, as an individual are giving your word, your entire worth as a man/woman that you promise to do as asked.

Is that too hard of a concept to grasp?

[Michelle]

Show me where Christ is mentioned in the oath Military inductees swear to.

You are right, people keep claiming this is a Christian nation (it is not, or ... feel free to show me where the founding fathers used the name "Christ") so I did indeed assume you referred to the Christian God.

Please explain to me how it serves you as a citizen, or upholds the respect of military, if an atheist lies when he swears on an oath to any God when he fully lacks belief in a God.

[Michelle]

Yes.  It's about experience.

Soooo, you believe your experience as an expert witness trumps Skeptic's education AND experience as a trained lawyer?

Okay.  That's interesting.

Do you celebrate Christmas?

I realize you didn't ask me this but I will respond anyway.  No.  I don't.  I was a hospital nurse for many years and for as long as I can remember I have always offered to work on Christmas so the Christian parents could spend the day with their family.  It has always seemed to be the more ethical thing to do.

Solar writes:

Irrelevant to the question. She claimed " One can love their country and not believe in the Christian God" when referring to the oath. No where in any oath is a particular religion named.
God can mean anything to anyone, even a freakin atheist can find solace in something beyond their grasp of conscious/conscience. Claim you yourself are God to yourself for that matter.

This is what I refer to when I try to explain that there is a great deal of ignorance regarding atheism.

Perhaps this will help:

Theism-  With a God
Atheism-  Without a God

Hello?

One to this day I hold in the highest esteem, which is why I'm fighting Marxism to this very day, because I swore I would protect this country and it's Constitution.

Right.  By asking military personnel to lie on their oath because... well, it's tradition!  I get the tradition, but IMHO I believe it is a slam to the tradition to lie on an OATH.  One would think that honesty from military trumps tradition.  I guess I see where your priorities are.

When my Dad died he had a Catholic funeral.  Before the funeral I asked the priest if there was anything I needed to do/not do to respect the faith and the church.  He said that yes, I shouldn't take communion.  Okay, no problem.

After the service my sister chastised me for staying seated during communion.  I explained that is what the priest told me, she couldn't comprehend the honesty and respect... either.

The whole idea of the oath is that one is telling themselves this is a sacrifice I'm willing to make, a moment one decides there's no turning back, that once you take this pledge, you, as an individual are giving your word, your entire worth as a man/woman that you promise to do as asked.

Agree.  And the atheist soldier is fully willing to swear to the same oath, he's just not willing to add in the dishonesty part by using the "God" part.

I can't wrap my brain around the fact that you see it superior for him to lie.

Is that too hard a concept to grasp?  Really???

[Skeptic]

Christians appealing to an empty oath because its tradition.... well, slavery and discrimination were also traditions in this country, but we had the sense to get rid of that garbage. Something being a tradition doesn't always makes it right or moral.

[Michelle]

Christians appealing to an empty oath because its tradition.... well, slavery and discrimination were also traditions in this country, but we had the sense to get rid of that garbage. Something being a tradition doesn't always makes it right or moral.

I understand your point and for the most part I agree with it but in this case, this thread... that isn't how I see this issue.

It boggles the mind that people #1) Insist atheists must have a higher power called God. (Or chair, couch, I forget the other examples.... seriously.. I swear to my couch I will uphold the constitution?)  and #2) It is far more superior to LIE on an oath than to break tradition.  That pretty well makes the oath utterly worthless if one will lie when taking the oath, right?

The oath is fine!  For an atheist adding in the God portion makes it an absolute lie.  But that is somehow the more superior and moral of the two choices.

///slowly shaking head///

[Solar]

You are right, people keep claiming this is a Christian nation (it is not, or ... feel free to show me where the founding fathers used the name "Christ") so I did indeed assume you referred to the Christian God.

Please explain to me how it serves you as a citizen, or upholds the respect of military, if an atheist lies when he swears on an oath to any God when he fully lacks belief in a God.

I know you can't grasp this, and I have no interest in discussing it with a militant atheist kid, one that has the same perspective of the other 20 something in this thread, or are you simply an ignorant adult?
Historical perspective is something both of you sorely lack, and something no one can teach you, especially since the Marxist party worked so fervently over the decades to remove Christianity from the schools.
That is all the evidence one needs if they want to understand just how far we've fallen as a Nation, one where a Christian way of life, a culture that built this nation became the enemy.

Yet you ask where's my proof that this is a Christian Nation? The fact that it''s been under attack for decades should be evidence enough, but since you have absolutely no historical perspective, you can't compare it to other nations that fell before it the very same way.

Keep fighting against Christianity, you'll deserve the end product.

[Solar]

Christians appealing to an empty oath because its tradition.... well, slavery and discrimination were also traditions in this country, but we had the sense to get rid of that garbage. Something being a tradition doesn't always makes it right or moral.

I gave you an example of what God is earlier, and it can be whatever one wants it to be.
Lose the idea of Religion, it plays no part in what God is. Religion is a pigeonholing of a belief, but step away from religion, and God can be whatever you want it to be, and if you want to believe God is your dog because he loves you unconditionally and would sacrifice his life to save your's, that's fine too. And you just may be right, God may be your dog, who's to argue, if you believe it?

Point is, it is you that is labeling God as something more than he is, causing you to denounce it's existence out of a disdain for religion.
Denounce religion all you like, I have, and have no use for it, but don't let that cloud your spiritual side of accepting something bigger than one individual.

If you were to poll atheists around the world, you'd find that most are atheists because of their contempt for religion.
And that contempt stifles most peoples spiritual side and they wind up wandering through life with so many unanswered questions.

You know in your heart, I'm right.

[Michelle]

I know you can't grasp this, and I have no interest in discussing it with a militant atheist kid, one that has the same perspective of the other 20 something in this thread, or are you simply an ignorant adult?
Historical perspective is something both of you sorely lack, and something no one can teach you, especially since the Marxist party worked so fervently over the decades to remove Christianity from the schools.
That is all the evidence one needs if they want to understand just how far we've fallen as a Nation, one where a Christian way of life, a culture that built this nation became the enemy.

Yet you ask where's my proof that this is a Christian Nation? The fact that it''s been under attack for decades should be evidence enough, but since you have absolutely no historical perspective, you can't compare it to other nations that fell before it the very same way.

Keep fighting against Christianity, you'll deserve the end product.

I'm not a child or an ignorant adult.  I happen to be a well educated female adult.  I merely dare to disagree with you and I call you on your own stuff.  You are tripping yourself up here and angry with me for pointing it out.  That is the real issue here. 

I really don't know how to explain the concept of atheism more than I have.  I will repeat it for you once again with a little more detail.  Perhaps this will help you understand:

theism
[thee-iz-uh m]  Spell  Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).

Now, do you honestly believe Fido the dog fits this definition?  Fido my dog (in reality, Fido is my cat's name) is the creator and ruler of the universe?  For real?  And you call ME ignorant?  The only issue I have been militant about is correct definitions.  I see that correct information is frustrating for you.

So you are suggesting that  an atheist military person swearing the oath could quite literally end it with, "So help me Fido" and that is acceptable.  This is ridiculous.  It's a moot point, atheists don't believe in a God(s) and you know what?  They don't have to.  This leaves swearing to Fido or being HONEST (a concept that seems to escape you) and omitting "God" from the same oath as everyone else.

Forced Christianity should have been removed from the schools but Christianity in general most certainly has not been removed from schools.  A child is absolutely welcome to request to reserve a room before/after school to have prayer meetings, bible studies, etc.  They are welcome to pray quietly as to not disrupt the learning process.  The only thing that has been removed has been forced prayer or religious issues led by public school teachers.  If the only way your kid is going to pray is if he is forced to do so by a tax paid teacher, that's not the fault of the govt.  That is your fault as a Christian parent.

The reality is quite simple.  Years ago people started insisting Christians follow their own rules.  Christians only wanted THEIR religion in schools, to hell with Jews and everyone else.  When Christians had to start following the same rules as everyone else they started screaming persecution.  Well... what does that mean Christians were doing to non Christians in prior times?  That had to have been persecution as well.  Truth is, Christians just have to follow the same rules as the rest of the country.  O.M.G.!  The horror!

For at least 30 years I have been saying the same thing, keep religion out of schools and govt.  At the rate Christians are losing members of their faith to Paganism and atheism (about 1% annually) someday Christianity is not going to be the major religion anymore.  Is it really fogging wise to set a precedent where a religion rules the country?  No, it's stupid and ignorant.

What I did not see coming was Muslims becoming the #1 power and at the rate they are breeding like bunnies (intentionally, I might add) they will be the major religion in the US.  So for awhile Christians ruled the roost.  Then we finally got a bit of sanity and left schools to teach and churches to preach now it is leaning towards Muslims.  I always thought it would be Paganism that would end up being the majority religion.  I have nobody to blame but Christians.  They are the ones demanding religion be in schools.  Looks like you are getting just what you asked for now.

Gee, thanks for that.

[taxed]

Soooo, you believe your experience as an expert witness trumps Skeptic's education AND experience as a trained lawyer?

I've never claimed to be an expert witness, so I have no idea what you're talking about.  I have been in business for myself since I was in my late teens (a little over 20 years now), so my experience in those sectors absolutely trumps the knowledge of a rookie attorney with 3-years of experience.  Do I know more about corporate law than my corporate attorney who has decades of experience?  No.  Do I know more about criminal law than my criminal attorney who is a former assistant DA prosecutor?  No.  Do I know more about real estate law than my closing and real estate attorneys who have decades of experience? No.  Do I know more about my sectors, and the legalities and technicalities within those sectors that I've learned from my expert and experienced attorneys over the years and the legal situations I've been in, than a rookie fresh-faced junior attorney?  Yes.

Okay.  That's interesting.

Not when you know what you're talking about.

I realize you didn't ask me this but I will respond anyway.  No.  I don't.  I was a hospital nurse for many years and for as long as I can remember I have always offered to work on Christmas so the Christian parents could spend the day with their family.  It has always seemed to be the more ethical thing to do.

Neat!

[Michelle]

I've never claimed to be an expert witness, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry, I think I am confusing your posts with that of another.

[taxed]

Sorry, I think I am confusing your posts with that of another.

Would my points not be interchangeable with the other author?

[Michelle]

Would my points not be interchangeable with the other author?

Not sure, I'd have to go back and reread.  I think it's clear I am mixing up authors here. 

[Solar]

I'm not a child or an ignorant adult.  I happen to be a well educated female adult.  I merely dare to disagree with you and I call you on your own stuff.  You are tripping yourself up here and angry with me for pointing it out.  That is the real issue here. 

I really don't know how to explain the concept of atheism more than I have.  I will repeat it for you once again with a little more detail.  Perhaps this will help you understand:

theism
[thee-iz-uh m]  Spell  Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).

Yes, you are ignorant, and this post proves it, which is the reason I said I wan't interested in discussing the topic further.
Beyond that, I have no idea what your point is, in posting a dictionary description of atheism.

Now, do you honestly believe Fido the dog fits this definition?  Fido my dog (in reality, Fido is my cat's name) is the creator and ruler of the universe?  For real?  And you call ME ignorant?  The only issue I have been militant about is correct definitions.  I see that correct information is frustrating for you.

Exactly my point, you didn't grasp my point because of your blind hatred of religion, and apparently Christiianity in particular.
Also, how do you know I adhere to the belief that God created the universe? Maybe a collective conscience of humanity played a part in it, maybe this collective thought of man is God? Point is, no one knows, but the fact that we're here is more than proof enough something created it, some unknown force, and for lack of a better description, the term God will suffice.
So again, the point is, God can represent whatever someone wants to claim it does.

So you are suggesting that  an atheist military person swearing the oath could quite literally end it with, "So help me Fido" and that is acceptable.  This is ridiculous.  It's a moot point, atheists don't believe in a God(s) and you know what?  They don't have to.  This leaves swearing to Fido or being HONEST (a concept that seems to escape you) and omitting "God" from the same oath as everyone else.

Seriously, did I say that? Do you want to have a serious discussion, or act like a preteen emotional idiot?

Forced Christianity should have been removed from the schools but Christianity in general most certainly has not been removed from schools.  A child is absolutely welcome to request to reserve a room before/after school to have prayer meetings, bible studies, etc.  They are welcome to pray quietly as to not disrupt the learning process.  The only thing that has been removed has been forced prayer or religious issues led by public school teachers.  If the only way your kid is going to pray is if he is forced to do so by a tax paid teacher, that's not the fault of the govt.  That is your fault as a Christian parent.

Boy Suspended for Bringing Bible To School Files Suit | Video ...
A San Diego-area teen suspended for bringing his Bible to school and talking about his faith has filed a lawsuit against the school district, the superintendent, an assistant principal, ... Dominguez's Bible was even confiscated by that teacher, ...
Search domain www.theblaze.comtheblaze.com/stories/2011/03/31/boy-suspended-for-brin...

The reality is quite simple.  Years ago people started insisting Christians follow their own rules.  Christians only wanted THEIR religion in schools, to hell with Jews and everyone else.  When Christians had to start following the same rules as everyone else they started screaming persecution.  Well... what does that mean Christians were doing to non Christians in prior times?  That had to have been persecution as well.  Truth is, Christians just have to follow the same rules as the rest of the country.  O.M.G.!  The horror!

OMG! Those evil Christians and their Easter holidays, or letting kids give gifts at Christmas, and how dare they call it Christmas vacation.

For at least 30 years I have been saying the same thing, keep religion out of schools and govt.  At the rate Christians are losing members of their faith to Paganism and atheism (about 1% annually) someday Christianity is not going to be the major religion anymore.  Is it really fogging wise to set a precedent where a religion rules the country?  No, it's stupid and ignorant.

Show me where the church ruled this nation.

What I did not see coming was Muslims becoming the #1 power and at the rate they are breeding like bunnies (intentionally, I might add) they will be the major religion in the US.  So for awhile Christians ruled the roost.  Then we finally got a bit of sanity and left schools to teach and churches to preach now it is leaning towards Muslims.  I always thought it would be Paganism that would end up being the majority religion.  I have nobody to blame but Christians.  They are the ones demanding religion be in schools.  Looks like you are getting just what you asked for now.

Gee, thanks for that.

So your hatred of Christianity played no part in it? What  freakin hypocrite!

[Michelle]

Yes, you are ignorant, and this post proves it, which is the reason I said I wan't interested in discussing the topic further.
Beyond that, I have no idea what your point is, in posting a dictionary description of atheism.
Exactly my point, you didn't grasp my point because of your blind hatred of religion, and apparently Christiianity in particular.

HAHAHAHA!  OMG!  You are amusing!  Now I see why someone in another thread writes what they do about you, it is quite accurate.

I never wrote anything to lead anyone to believe I have a blind hatred of religion.  I do have a serious dislike for being willingly ignorant, I fully admit I have a hatred for our prez, but religion?  Nope.  I'm not the one out there demanding Christians bake wedding cakes for gay folks, I support the Christians.  I signed petitions supporting pastors not turning over their sermon to an idiot politician.  I'm not the one out there demanding, "In God We Trust" be removed from money, I don't give a rats butt.

Being atheist does not mean a blind hate for religion.  Sorry, you'll have to try harder.   

What is annoying me is you.  You don't like reality so you merely change the definitions of words.  Theist, atheist, God, any word that doesn't fit into your agenda and you just change the meaning of the word, then stomp your feeties, ball up your fisties, stick out your lower lip and go on a slam fest.

Isn't that what Libs do?

Also, how do you know I adhere to the belief that God created the universe? Maybe a collective conscience of humanity played a part in it, maybe this collective thought of man is God? Point is, no one knows, but the fact that we're here is more than proof enough something created it, some unknown force, and for lack of a better description, the term God will suffice.

I don't know that.  Of course, I never made the claim either.

Do you just have these debates in your head and you forget what is in your head vs. what people actually write?

*I* provided the accurate dictionary definition of a God.  You made up your own definition so I merely provided you with the true definition.  I didn't claim you believe anything.  Well, other than incorrect meanings of words.

So again, the point is, God can represent whatever someone wants to claim it does.
Seriously, did I say that? Do you want to have a serious discussion, or act like a preteen emotional idiot?

You know, Dude, I have to tell you.  You really don't behave as a rational adult.  You do behave as a troll.

Boy Suspended for Bringing Bible To School Files Suit | Video ...
A San Diego-area teen suspended for bringing his Bible to school and talking about his faith has filed a lawsuit against the school district, the superintendent, an assistant principal, ... Dominguez's Bible was even confiscated by that teacher, ...
Search domain www.theblaze.comtheblaze.com/stories/2011/03/31/boy-suspended-for-brin...

I tried to go to your link, I received this message:

~~The server at www.theblaze.comtheblaze.com can't be found, because the DNS lookup failed. DNS is the network service that translates a website's name to its Internet address. This error is most often caused by having no connection to the Internet or a misconfigured network. It can also be caused by an unresponsive DNS server or a firewall preventing Google Chrome from accessing the network.
Error code: DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN~~

OMG! Those evil Christians and their Easter holidays, or letting kids give gifts at Christmas, and how dare they call it Christmas vacation.

Did you take your meds today?  Seriously, do you have an anxiety disorder?

Show me where the church ruled this nation.
So your hatred of Christianity played no part in it? What  freakin hypocrite!

Heh... I was addressing YOUR point where YOU claim the US is a Christian nation. 

I'm new here.  Are you a troll?  Or just a troubled person?

[taxed]

~~The server at www.theblaze.comtheblaze.com can't be found, because the DNS lookup failed. DNS is the network service that translates a website's name to its Internet address. This error is most often caused by having no connection to the Internet or a misconfigured network. It can also be caused by an unresponsive DNS server or a firewall preventing Google Chrome from accessing the network.
Error code: DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN~~

If you knew this, then you can clearly look at the URI and see where the error is.  Why go through the trouble of exposing a typo, when you yourself couldn't identify it?