Author Topic: 5 Questions for Creationists  (Read 7689 times)

Offline Sci Fi Fan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2014, 10:09:15 PM »
Answer: On the geological scale, or in other words in the grand scheme of things so to speak, ALL the  species evolved in a very very short amount of time. Remember the entire Universe is about thirteen Billion years old, according to non-creationist cosmologists themselves. With again according to those same non-creationist scientists, our own sun, and our own planet being somewhere between four to four and a half billion years old.

When seen in that scale we along with all the animal life that has ever existed on Earth, which has only existed on Earth for a couple of hundred million years, (according again to non-creationist scientists) did "evolve" or were created, in a very very short amount of time.

"Daidalos", this literally does absolutely nothing to answer the question in any way, shape or form.   :huh:

Quote
If you read the Genesis account you find that God created Human beings to be just that. Hunter Gatherers. Not farmers or agriculturalists as we as a species largely are today. Especially, post, expulsion.

You completely ignored the part about the vestigial organs.  Indeed, you cherry picked a portion of one of the two paragraphs and never bothered to address the point, which is that the makeup of known animals just happens to match the predictions of Evolutionary Theory.


Quote
The Bible (Judeo-Christian) Scripture makes mention of several different types of sentient life out there in the creation.  See Cherubim, Seraphim, Nephilim for example.

Are you seriously trying to claim that descriptions of winged angelic beasts accurately predicts the existence of Neanderthal and erectus fossils?  The two aren't similar at all - Genesis failed utterly to mention them, yet evolutionary theory predicts their existence, and so it obviously has greater predictive power, and so it is clearly a better theory.

Quote
Wrong again, not only are the scriptures chock full of "observations" about the nature of man, and our interaction with the creator.

No, it is not.  Any non-trivial predictions about human nature happen to be post-ad-hoc rationalizations.  Case study: after the big bang theory became accepted science, some theologians tried to claim that Genesis suggested just that when it described God's stretching out the Cosmos.  But it's piss easy to do post-ad-hoc vague handwaviums like that; psychics and astrologists make a living on it.  Real science has the ability to make specific, accurate predictions, not vague philosophical generalities.

Quote
Which is the primary focus of the book as it is NOT meant to be a geology or astronomy text for example.

I am addressing creationists, and creationists obviously do think the Bible is a geology and astronomy text, because they reject the scientific alternatives.

Quote
And it contrary to your assertion, does in fact time and time again make "predictions" many of which can be, have been, and are absolutely "testable" and indeed proven.

Uh huh.  Please name them.

Quote

See Ezekiel's prophecy concerning the city of Tyr, and then the archeological evidence of what actually happened to that city for example.


What the fuck does this have to do with creationism, again? 

Quote
The scripture doesn't say God created plants before the stars. You ask for a civil/rational reply, yet have made anyone of a number of fallacious, and ill informed assertions already. Such as for example your assertion that the scripture makes no observations, nor predictions. Or the assertion that it makes no mention of other sentient life. To have such a polite and rationale "conversation" with you, you'll first have to do quite a bit more study of those scriptures first so you know what it is you are actually talking about. As given the aforementioned assertions for example, it's obvious you know very little about the creation story/myth/belief as described within the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

Cutting through the 75% of this paragraph where you state emphatically that I am wrong and flawed and yet only devote a small amount of text to actually explaining how, you seem to think that mention of ANGELIC BEASTS is somehow a prediction of Neanderthal remains, and deny that the Scripture claims God created the plants before the stars when, you know, it clearly says that.  But more to the point, I'd be interested in seeing these observations and predictions the Bible made that you have alluded to but conveniently failed to actually describe, and your Grand Finale where you explain how any of this defends creationism or opposes evolution at all.

Offline Sci Fi Fan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2014, 10:18:34 PM »
All of your questions are based on the assumption that the man-made concept of time is the same as God's time.
 When God first created the Earth, it was shapeless. It wasn't round with 24 hour days as weknow today. A "God day" could have been 10,000,000,000 years for all we know.

OK...what does this have to do with anything I've said?  None of my arguments are predicated on a literal 6 day creation myth.

Quote
Elsewhere in the Bible, it mentions that our lives are like a small vapor in the grand scheme of things. Well, vapors last about a second and guven that the average lifespan is about 75 years (currently), that gives furtger evidence that God is not on human time. In addition, God created animals before humans, it seems that God time may have allowed for certain evolutionary processes to take place.

If you're acknowledging evolution, why are you even arguing with me?  And again, how does anything that you're saying here have anything to do with the text you were quoting?

Quote
I have three questions for you. Do you understand the difference between evolution and adaptation? Can you explain evolution on a microbiological level? Specifically, address how individual cells can mutate to give rise to complex systems such as the human eye. If one component of the human eye is missing, the whole system fails to work. So how did it develop? With a lens? A useless lens without a retina or the approximately 40 chemicals necessary to make it work? Explain complex systems such as this, please.

Over hundreds of millions of years, your "it's too complicated to arise!" argument falls flat to the enormity of the time natural selection has to get it right.  Mind you, if you are a creationist, you may want to explain the existence of vestigial eyes in various mole species, or the fact that the eye is actually a very vulnerable and imperfect organ.  Evolutionary theory not only allows for these observations, but actually predicts them, whereas creationism needs to undergo post ad-hoc rationalizations and clever infalsifiable loops such as "the lord works in mysterious ways!"

Your entire argument, once you actually got to saying it, is to point out that evolutionary biologists have not exactly described the evolution of every possible adaptation, and so the whole theory must be flawed.  But that's absurd - by that logic, because the inhabitants of Hiroshima couldn't have calculated the exact radiation flux of the atomic bomb dropped on them, they could not have concluded that they just had an atom bomb dropped on them.  The vast fossil record, vestigial traits, DNA similarities and other features can only be explained by Darwinian evolution, and it's interesting that you completely ignore all of the actual questions I was asking to point out this fact.


Quote
Last question: as a neuropsychologist (done with coursework for doctrate, simply awaiting to finish myinternship), I am intrigued by your statement that neurological and psychological evudence contradicts any creationist worldview. Can you elaborate on that?

It's funny that you ask that, since I made no such claim, and you are having a hard time understanding the difference between pointing out that creationism makes no predictions and claiming that it makes false predictions.  Creationism has made numerous false predictions, but after the evidence overwhelms it, it just changes its mind with the convenient luxury of being ill-defined.

Online s3779m

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2697
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep looking, it's there
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2014, 04:07:47 AM »
 I have been reading and trying to keep up with the various arguments, so this does not have a quote from anything in particular, but I do have a question for sci fi, are you trying to prove that the theory of evolution is fact ?, or are you trying to prove that God does not exist?

Online Solar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 67747
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2014, 05:15:01 AM »
I have been reading and trying to keep up with the various arguments, so this does not have a quote from anything in particular, but I do have a question for sci fi, are you trying to prove that the theory of evolution is fact ?, or are you trying to prove that God does not exist?
:biggrin:
The woman is a complete screwball. If the argument starts out with her claiming there is no God, and you wind up agreeing with her, she will then argue that you are wrong, God does exist.

She' the epitome of insanity.
#WWG1WGA

Offline Dr. Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2014, 11:08:23 PM »
:biggrin:
The woman is a complete screwball. If the argument starts out with her claiming there is no God, and you wind up agreeing with her, she will then argue that you are wrong, God does exist.

She' the epitome of insanity.
Plus, she's banned and won'tbe answering his question. At least not until she starts a new account.

Darth Fife

  • Guest
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2014, 05:07:43 PM »
Wow!

Now I know how Luke Skywalker felt in that cave on Dagobah!

Okay, here is the same question asked with a little more sophistication.

You posit that God created the universe and all that is in it. That means that God created the laws which govern that universe. Question: Can God violate the laws which govern the universe which he created?

And here is one for the Evolution/Science Deniers out there.

One of the arguments used by Evolution Deniers is that changing of one species into another has not been observed in modern time, i.e. a lion has always been a lion, and an elephant has always been an elephant for all of recorded history. For Evolution to be vaild, they claim, it must be an ongoing process.

My position now is that evolution exists, because God created it! And, of course, anything he makes, he can unmake. 

Obviously, if the Universe began with the Big Bang, someone had to light the fuse...

Quote
Fair enough.

So, let me ask all of you theist out there.

Does God still speak to his "chosen" people today, either directly or through "prophets"? If not, why not?

The point I'm getting at is this. Most Christian discount the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as nothing more than a "cult" religion started by a 19th Century charlatan. Oh, many, if not most, Christian tolerate the Mormons, but very few think they are truly Christians.

And yet, the founding of the LDS church and the persecutions they faced over the past 150 years is very analogous to that of the early Christian Church.

What makes Christians so damned sure that God didn't decide that mainstream Christianity had drifted away from the true course Christ had set for it, and so he decided to raise up a prophet in the name of Joseph Smith to do a disc format and reboot of Christianity?

I believe that it is not beyond plausible that God does continues to interact with humanity, sometimes on a broad level and sometimes on a personal level.

I believe he still, from time to time, calls individuals to be his messengers - prophets if you will. But there are not nearly as many as there are that claim to be!

Finally, the Bible story of Creation is simply a story, possibly inspired by God, to teach lessons of morality and obedience and the consequences of immorality and disobedience to a given group of people. All peoples of this Earth have their own Creation myth and nearly all serve the same purpose - to teach their people!

Darth

Online taxed

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23985
  • Gender: Male
  • At some point, the money is due.
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2014, 05:27:51 PM »
Wow!

Now I know how Luke Skywalker felt in that cave on Dagobah!

My position now is that evolution exists, because God created it! And, of course, anything he makes, he can unmake. 

Obviously, if the Universe began with the Big Bang, someone had to light the fuse...

I believe that it is not beyond plausible that God does continues to interact with humanity, sometimes on a broad level and sometimes on a personal level.

I believe he still, from time to time, calls individuals to be his messengers - prophets if you will. But there are not nearly as many as there are that claim to be!

Finally, the Bible story of Creation is simply a story, possibly inspired by God, to teach lessons of morality and obedience and the consequences of immorality and disobedience to a given group of people. All peoples of this Earth have their own Creation myth and nearly all serve the same purpose - to teach their people!

Darth

On subject, what do you think about this?:
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/science-and-technology/the-atacama-humanoid/

Darth Fife

  • Guest
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2014, 12:36:28 PM »
On subject, what do you think about this?:
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/science-and-technology/the-atacama-humanoid/

I'll address this on the thread you linked to.

Darth

Offline Skeptic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 620
  • Gender: Male
  • Fighting for your rights, for a profit.
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2014, 12:49:38 PM »
The day Creationists actually produce real falsifiable evidence about their claims that can be actually tested using the scientific method, and not just straw man arguments and appeals to faith, perhaps I'll pause to discuss this topic with them. Until then, why waste our time with it?
Skepticism, like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily.

Darth Fife

  • Guest
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2014, 01:12:34 PM »
The day Creationists actually produce real falsifiable evidence about their claims that can be actually tested using the scientific method, and not just straw man arguments and appeals to faith, perhaps I'll pause to discuss this topic with them. Until then, why waste our time with it?

Isn't that what you just did?

 :huh:

Darth

Offline Dr. Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2014, 09:22:13 AM »
Isn't that what you just did?

 :huh:

Darth

Not to mention the time he wasted coming up with his cliche avatar. He's obsessed with the religion of atheism.

Offline Rasputttin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Gender: Male
  • Never once voted democrat. Not even when young.
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2014, 07:20:19 PM »
By “creationist” I am referring to those who prescribe to a religious creation story; specifically, my question is targeted towards Christian creationists.

1.   If God created humans and animals within a decently small timespan, why don’t we ever find homo sapiens fossils from the same era as Australopithecus?  We can see with hominid fossils that they come from different eras, and it just happens that as the dates approach the present, they become more and more similar to us.  It seems quite mightily convenient for Evolutionary Theory that we find a similar trend throughout every fossil hierarchy.  It doesn’t seem to fit with the Creationist stance that God created the animals at around the same time – why would they happen to exist in distinct eras with clear progressions from one set of fossils to the next?


2.   I’d asked earlier how creationists explain vestigial organs.  More specifically, why it happens that these vestigial organs happen to have had a purpose in earlier species Evolution predicts were ancestors.  Why would a Creator give animals vestigial organs in such a manner that so conveniently lines up with Evolutionary theory?  Is this Creator actively deceiving us?  And even in organs that do serve a purpose, I’m sure any first year medical student could list numerous organs just in the human body that could be made orders of magnitude more efficient. 

Indeed, many of our physical and mental traits seem uniquely adapted for survival in a hunter gatherer society, which makes absolutely no sense if you prescribe to Genesis, or any creator that would recognize we would eventually become agricultural and industrial.  Evolution not only explains but expects such imperfections, as natural selection is a slow, blind process, the nonrandom selection of random mutations.  But creationist theory has to perform mental gymnastics that reduce to “god works in mysterious ways”, or rather “occam’s razor can go fuck itself.”


3.   Why don’t Biblical creation stories mention Neanderthals and other sentient hominids?  You’d think this would be a pretty major point, that there were once other intelligent beings, presumably also with souls.  What happened to them? 


4.   Where are Creationism’s testable predictions?  It isn’t falsifiable – it is based on no observations and is not applicable to any other field.  Evolutionary Theory can be used to explain numerous phenomena in biology, biochemistry, psychology, neuroscience and animal science, while creationism is entirely self contained in that it makes no predictions and no observations.


5.   Building off of the last question, if, as with most creationists, your primary justification is some variant of the first cause argument, how do you extrapolate this to anything specific in your mythology?  How do you know God created Eve out of Adam’s rib, or that he created the plants before the stars?  Where does any of this come from?

I would invite any civil/rational responses.  Thank you.

There are three earth ages. A fact that many so called Christian scholars overlook. They say that this world is only 6000 years old. What they miss is that this age is only 6000 years old. There was an age before this one. It was the age when Lucifer rebelled against God and took the fallen angels with him.

I believe the bones that have been found that science claims are early humans were just an extict species of monkey's. I believe that man,in the flesh,has always looked just as we look. The fact is that over 90% of all creatures created have gone extict. They are no longer here. It's not because they evolved in to something different. They just went away. Survival of the fittest,so to speak.
Democrats love me this I know. For the TV tells me so.

Online Solar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 67747
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2014, 07:56:12 PM »
There are three earth ages. A fact that many so called Christian scholars overlook. They say that this world is only 6000 years old. What they miss is that this age is only 6000 years old. There was an age before this one. It was the age when Lucifer rebelled against God and took the fallen angels with him.

I believe the bones that have been found that science claims are early humans were just an extict species of monkey's. I believe that man,in the flesh,has always looked just as we look. The fact is that over 90% of all creatures created have gone extict. They are no longer here. It's not because they evolved in to something different. They just went away. Survival of the fittest,so to speak.
The specie you refer to as monkey was Neanderthal, a species DNA we all share today, with the exception of Africans.
Are you claiming man screwed monkeys?
#WWG1WGA

Offline Rasputttin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Gender: Male
  • Never once voted democrat. Not even when young.
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2014, 08:25:55 PM »
The specie you refer to as monkey was Neanderthal, a species DNA we all share today, with the exception of Africans.
Are you claiming man screwed monkeys?

Well, I have no doubt that the history of man includes a few men who have banged a few primates, but I don't think they have reproduced.

Science says that we share much in common with monkeys today,even geneticly. The fact that we have genetic similarities with so called neandrathals isn't that strange.
 
We have genetic similarities with many mammals. The fact is it is a matter of faith. Science,as a study,is about facts and data. That doesn't mean scientists themselves care about truth. The global warming debate should tell you much about modern day scientists. Even if science itself has no agenda that doesn't mean some scientists don't. They are just humans like the rest of us flawed. The bible has been right about so many things,things that can not be explained, that I am not willing to let a few scientists dismiss it all with their genetic claims.

There are fossils from long ago that look just like the creature that exists today. It hasn't evolved one bit. There are fossils of things we do not see today. It's because they no longer exist. Why do you put trust in an industry that has shown itself for who they are.
Democrats love me this I know. For the TV tells me so.

Offline ORIGINAL WILLARD

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • I love Conservative Political Forum!
Re: 5 Questions for Creationists
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2014, 10:17:18 PM »
Well, I have no doubt that the history of man includes a few men who have banged a few primates, but I don't think they have reproduced.

Science says that we share much in common with monkeys today,even geneticly. The fact that we have genetic similarities with so called neandrathals isn't that strange.
 
We have genetic similarities with many mammals. The fact is it is a matter of faith. Science,as a study,is about facts and data. That doesn't mean scientists themselves care about truth. The global warming debate should tell you much about modern day scientists. Even if science itself has no agenda that doesn't mean some scientists don't. They are just humans like the rest of us flawed. The bible has been right about so many things,things that can not be explained, that I am not willing to let a few scientists dismiss it all with their genetic claims.

There are fossils from long ago that look just like the creature that exists today. It hasn't evolved one bit. There are fossils of things we do not see today. It's because they no longer exist. Why do you put trust in an industry that has shown itself for who they are.

Some of my favorite science comes from the oldest book of the Bible, the book of Job.
Job, an awesome prophet speaks amazing things about God, creation, and an amazing understanding of planet Earth.

Chapter 26 is astonishing! In verse 7 the concept of "north" is established as it would mathematically relate to spherical values. This verse also illustrates a "suspended" earth in space.

Verse 10 is also incredible. It again clearly illustrates a "spherical" earth, being half illuminated by the sun while the other half would be in darkness during rotation. It obviously references the boundaries of where sunlight meets darkness. Here, a "circular" horizon is explicitly described!

 Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over empty space; [He] hangs the earth on nothing.

 Job 26:8 He binds up the water in His thick clouds, Yet the clouds are not broken under it.

 Job 26:9 He covers the face of [His] throne,[And] spreads His cloud over it.

 Job 26:10 He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, At the boundary of light and darkness.

 Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble, And are astonished at His rebuke.

 Job 26:12 He stirs up the sea with His power, And by His understanding He breaks up the storm.

 Job 26:13 By His Spirit He adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent.

 Job 26:14 Indeed these [are] the mere edges of His ways, And how small a whisper we hear of Him! But the thunder of His power who can understand?"


These are divine provisions of knowledge given to God's prophet in ancient history, centuries prior to the birth of our Lord.

A God capable of these things also loves us. Amazing! I pray his blessings find you and all in your house!

 

Powered by EzPortal