Author Topic: Musicians that lift from other cultures are stealing. or so says my classmate.  (Read 3836 times)

Offline GuyMontag

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sorry if this post rambles.  I need to stop arguing on Facebook.  I hold a position of power in my student government, and I'm eventually going to stay something I regret.

but tonight, I couldn't let certain thoughts on music stand, because the stupid was so strong.  basically, John Lennon and Elvis are thieves because they didn't credit black people enough or give significant cuts of their profits to struggling black artists.

i.e., I mentioned Paul Simon's Graceland - which we all know was a white guy wrapping his music in Zulu melodies - and her response was "It wasn't controversial in the 1980s because of white supremacy."  (1980.  not 1940.)

so, let me get this straight...if we keep our culture insular and only blast "white" music, we're racist.  If we start blasting Parliament/Funkadlelic while driving around in a low rider with rims, we're also racist because we're committing cultural appropriation.

I wasted 45 minutes of my life arguing with this person, and was met with rambling walls of text.  (oh, and I also tried to tell her that geisha costumes aren't racist...because geishas actually wore them, and Hollywood didn't just make it up to make fun of Asians.)

the discussion ended when she suggested to me that musicians who dip into "ethnic" genres (or play rock music, which came out of R&B) should be taxed, and the taxes should go to the appropriate cultural groups that inspired the music.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?  I'm serious.  there are alternate viewpoints, and then there's this.

I'm kind of afraid to be 27.  all of you over 50...I'm jealous.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 12:39:11 AM by GuyMontag »

Offline GuyMontag

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sorry.  I just...this is why I'm active in groups on campus.

these people deserve nothing but laughter and ridicule, and they're being taken seriously.  something is very wrong here.

Offline quiller

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Suggest you research songs drawn from Bible phrases, including "Turn, Turn, Turn," by The Byrds, and similar popular songs. Libs tend to  dry up if they have to credit religion...or pay royalties to religious song publishers.

As for being jealous of anyone 50 or older, wait until you're there...and it's cold weather.  :wink:

Offline GuyMontag

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I got no response when I linked her to this demented song (it veers from genre to genre, and honestly...there are about 5 shifts in this song), and asked her which culture should be credited - or if any of them should be, because the band blended the styles into a near-unrecognizable cartoonish blob.

but at that point, I was just being a dick and the discussion had descended into logic chopping.  I'm almost unable to be civil with these people.

Offline kit saginaw

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That song just sounds like an urban Bootsy Collins (bassist for the Parliament-Funkadelics) future that never was vibe mixed-with some of Twink's (drummer for the UK's Pretty Things and the Pink Fairies) present that never is psycha-watery New Orleans jazz-drifts.

It's the kinda song you hear coming-from someone else's boat at a marina-party on a Saturday-afternoon.

On a side note (no pun intended), speaking of 'macaroni'...  the verses of the 1770's hit, Yankee Doodle Came To Town, Riding On A Pony... Stuck A Feather In His Cap, And Called It 'Macaroni'.. was American-rebels making-fun of British-infantry and New England appeasers...

doodle was street-slang for 'masturbation'
pony; more submissive than 'horse'
feather; dressing-up
macaroni was street-slang for 'gay-sex'   

Offline Mountainshield

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but tonight, I couldn't let certain thoughts on music stand, because the stupid was so strong.  basically, John Lennon and Elvis are thieves because they didn't credit black people enough or give significant cuts of their profits to struggling black artists.

i.e., I mentioned Paul Simon's Graceland - which we all know was a white guy wrapping his music in Zulu melodies - and her response was "It wasn't controversial in the 1980s because of white supremacy."  (1980.  not 1940.)

so, let me get this straight...if we keep our culture insular and only blast "white" music, we're racist.  If we start blasting Parliament/Funkadlelic while driving around in a low rider with rims, we're also racist because we're committing cultural appropriation.

Does it matter? We are all one race which is named human. A rhythm, invention or whatever is not the property of the ethnicity it was first created. If it was then non-whites should yell "praise white people" every time they step into a car etc, which is what the liberals you are arguing with are saying.

Liberals are racists and you should just call them for what they are and be done with it.

Offline Solar

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sorry if this post rambles.  I need to stop arguing on Facebook.  I hold a position of power in my student government, and I'm eventually going to stay something I regret.

but tonight, I couldn't let certain thoughts on music stand, because the stupid was so strong.  basically, John Lennon and Elvis are thieves because they didn't credit black people enough or give significant cuts of their profits to struggling black artists.

i.e., I mentioned Paul Simon's Graceland - which we all know was a white guy wrapping his music in Zulu melodies - and her response was "It wasn't controversial in the 1980s because of white supremacy."  (1980.  not 1940.)

so, let me get this straight...if we keep our culture insular and only blast "white" music, we're racist.  If we start blasting Parliament/Funkadlelic while driving around in a low rider with rims, we're also racist because we're committing cultural appropriation.

I wasted 45 minutes of my life arguing with this person, and was met with rambling walls of text.  (oh, and I also tried to tell her that geisha costumes aren't racist...because geishas actually wore them, and Hollywood didn't just make it up to make fun of Asians.)

the discussion ended when she suggested to me that musicians who dip into "ethnic" genres (or play rock music, which came out of R&B) should be taxed, and the taxes should go to the appropriate cultural groups that inspired the music.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?  I'm serious.  there are alternate viewpoints, and then there's this.

I'm kind of afraid to be 27.  all of you over 50...I'm jealous.
Hold your ground, you're arguing with a Marxist in the making.
Music is no different than anything man has discovered or invented, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Whether it's a rhythm, or the airplane, those that copy pay tribute by keeping the dream alive.

She's a freakin wealth distributive, liberal guilted nut, and there's nothing that's going to change her emotion, until the day she is mugged and reality sets in.
#WWG1WGA

Offline red_dirt

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      No musicologist, but that old argument that the white man stole the black man's music has gotten older than I am.  Fortunately, along came hip hop and rap to put an end to that fusion, at least on the church and country side of things.
      There are secular and religious roots at the formation of what Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, and many others were to popularize as "rock and roll."  Elvis's early music was in Pentecostal Gospel quartets, which he sang in until he hit the teen years. That music was a fusion of the music coming out of black and white churches of the old south, including the upbeat, frenetic, service associated with the "holy rollers." Most all historians agree that music developed "over the fence" if we may refer to it that way, of the segregated south. Each developing its own character, each very familiar with what the other was doing.  This was before records.
        Elvis was actually quite convincing as a gospel singer in his early years. As time went on, through such alleged factors as fame, drugs, promiscuity, other sin, caused his gospel performances to become a bit of a charade, masquerade, which Elvis gave every indication of being aware of, judging from the smirks and grins.
        No, Elvis didn't "steal" from black musicians any more than Chuck Berry stole from white. There was always this somewhat integrated night scene on Beale Street, where a variety of sounds are always to be heard. If the blacks have a case for recognition, feel they have not received the recognition, it would be because segregation in the south caused their music to develop in segregated venues, and vice versa. Like Duke Ellington said, "People will always find a way to get together." Incidentally, commercial music and copyright have always been very careful to abide by the law, both in spirit and by the letter. CC Rider was in public domain. Houndog was a an old tune with many versions.
        The study of copyright is interesting in itself, to watch American courts and lawmakers dance around the spirit of the law to satisfy wealthy media companies, especially since the pop culture revolution of the 1960's.
        I could see how the argument could go on and on.  Maybe the blacks would consider paying us reparations for corrupting the morals of our youth and destroying our cities. Ask your prof that.
   


Offline Dori

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WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?  I'm serious.  there are alternate viewpoints, and then there's this.

I'm kind of afraid to be 27.  all of you over 50...I'm jealous.

There is definitely something in today's culture that has changed.  It seems to be getting worse too.  I blame it on our education system and the culture where everything is viewed through the prism of victimhood.  Whether it involves race, gender, or something else, people will only see someone as the victim and someone else is at fault and or must pay in someway.

As far as it applies to the different genres of music, how far back do these people want to go?  As our world gets smaller and smaller with cultures blending, it would be impossible to untangle it all. 

One group I used to enjoy was the Gypsy Kings.  Their music had a blend (to me) of Latin and Eastern sounds.  My dad liked folksy country music.  You hear a lot of old Irish influence in some of that.   

The people you were referring to I see as idiots.   
The danger to America is not Barack Obama but the citizens capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.

Offline GuyMontag

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yeow.  I reread my post this morning - that's what we call me being incredulous at how someone can be so stupid.  (and at 1 in the morning, I was cranky.)

this was percolated frustration and annoyance - and especially in my case, since I am minoring in music and don't like being called "racist" for admiring someone like Parliament/Funkadelic.

Hold your ground, you're arguing with a Marxist in the making.
Music is no different than anything man has discovered or invented, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Whether it's a rhythm, or the airplane, those that copy pay tribute by keeping the dream alive.

She's a freakin wealth distributive, liberal guilted nut, and there's nothing that's going to change her emotion, until the day she is mugged and reality sets in.

See?  That's the point any sane person would make.  If a bassist copies Stanley Clarke, it doesn't mean "I can do it better than you because I'm white".  it means "damn, man, you rule and you get all the girls - I want to be like you".

I ended up removing any updates to the post from my news feed, as - sadly - I have a public reputation to uphold and she doesn't, so it wouldn't be a good idea to keep reading her the riot act.  it's so easy to exist as a liberal on Facebook...
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 11:22:05 AM by GuyMontag »

Offline TboneAgain

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sorry if this post rambles.  I need to stop arguing on Facebook.  I hold a position of power in my student government, and I'm eventually going to stay something I regret.

but tonight, I couldn't let certain thoughts on music stand, because the stupid was so strong.  basically, John Lennon and Elvis are thieves because they didn't credit black people enough or give significant cuts of their profits to struggling black artists.

i.e., I mentioned Paul Simon's Graceland - which we all know was a white guy wrapping his music in Zulu melodies - and her response was "It wasn't controversial in the 1980s because of white supremacy."  (1980.  not 1940.)

so, let me get this straight...if we keep our culture insular and only blast "white" music, we're racist.  If we start blasting Parliament/Funkadlelic while driving around in a low rider with rims, we're also racist because we're committing cultural appropriation.

I wasted 45 minutes of my life arguing with this person, and was met with rambling walls of text.  (oh, and I also tried to tell her that geisha costumes aren't racist...because geishas actually wore them, and Hollywood didn't just make it up to make fun of Asians.)

the discussion ended when she suggested to me that musicians who dip into "ethnic" genres (or play rock music, which came out of R&B) should be taxed, and the taxes should go to the appropriate cultural groups that inspired the music.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?  I'm serious.  there are alternate viewpoints, and then there's this.

I'm kind of afraid to be 27.  all of you over 50...I'm jealous.

Son, I would give my leftward testicular appendage to be 27; kwitcherbitchin.  :tounge:

Completely discard every bit of logic in your head. Throw away true science completely -- or co-opt it to support your theories, no matter their source. Shitcan every shred of classic religious teaching in your life. Embrace the use of force of every type, from the point of a government gun down to ridicule and public shaming, as legitimate methods to suppress and silence anyone who disagrees with your views. Do these things, and you too will instantly become a lib/prog.

Have you asked your friend how it is that the roots of black soul music aren't stolen property because their rhythms and lyrics are the product of a purloined language -- English?

You're justifiably frustrated at the mind-numbing contradictions in the lib/prog mindset. Just consider a pet hobby-horse of theirs -- the environment. Back in the 1970s and early 1980s, they were squealing (they tend to squeal a lot) about global cooling, indeed the coming of the next Ice Age. Starting in the late 1980s and continuing to about five years ago, they squealed about global warming, the melting of the icecaps and the inundation of coastal cities. These days, they squeal about climate change, as if any change at all is catastrophic. All of this in my adult life! Whew!  :bored:

But consider that during the global cooling phase, the cause (they squealed) was man's emission of "greenhouse gases," primarily CO2, and the solution was to drastically curtail energy usage and redistribute wealth globally; during the global warming phase, the cause (they squealed) was man's  emission of "greenhouse gases," primarily CO2, and the solution was to drastically curtail energy usage and redistribute wealth globally; during the current climate change phase, the cause (they squeal) is man's  emission of "greenhouse gases," primarily CO2, and the solution is to drastically curtail energy usage and redistribute wealth globally.

Do you detect a pattern here? Do you detect logic here? Do you detect any true science at work here? Do you detect the whiff of a political agenda here?

Learn to warp and twist and bend reality around your uninformed idea of how the world should operate, and you too can become a lib/prog overnight.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Offline GuyMontag

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Son, I would give my leftward testicular appendage to be 27; kwitcherbitchin.  :tounge:

Completely discard every bit of logic in your head. Throw away true science completely -- or co-opt it to support your theories, no matter their source. Shitcan every shred of classic religious teaching in your life. Embrace the use of force of every type, from the point of a government gun down to ridicule and public shaming, as legitimate methods to suppress and silence anyone who disagrees with your views. Do these things, and you too will instantly become a lib/prog.

Have you asked your friend how it is that the roots of black soul music aren't stolen property because their rhythms and lyrics are the product of a purloined language -- English?

You're justifiably frustrated at the mind-numbing contradictions in the lib/prog mindset. Just consider a pet hobby-horse of theirs -- the environment. Back in the 1970s and early 1980s, they were squealing (they tend to squeal a lot) about global cooling, indeed the coming of the next Ice Age. Starting in the late 1980s and continuing to about five years ago, they squealed about global warming, the melting of the icecaps and the inundation of coastal cities. These days, they squeal about climate change, as if any change at all is catastrophic. All of this in my adult life! Whew!  :bored:

But consider that during the global cooling phase, the cause (they squealed) was man's emission of "greenhouse gases," primarily CO2, and the solution was to drastically curtail energy usage and redistribute wealth globally; during the global warming phase, the cause (they squealed) was man's  emission of "greenhouse gases," primarily CO2, and the solution was to drastically curtail energy usage and redistribute wealth globally; during the current climate change phase, the cause (they squeal) is man's  emission of "greenhouse gases," primarily CO2, and the solution is to drastically curtail energy usage and redistribute wealth globally.

Do you detect a pattern here? Do you detect logic here? Do you detect any true science at work here? Do you detect the whiff of a political agenda here?

Learn to warp and twist and bend reality around your uninformed idea of how the world should operate, and you too can become a lib/prog overnight.

in complete agreement.

like I said earlier - I'd laugh this off if this girl didn't represent so much of academia today.  (sorry, who am I kidding - almost all of academia.  I would know, I attend the University of Wisconsin.)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 03:00:52 PM by GuyMontag »

Offline TboneAgain

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in complete agreement.

like I said earlier - I'd laugh this off if this girl didn't represent so much of academia today.  (sorry, who am I kidding - almost all of academia.  I would know, I attend the University of Wisconsin.)

Christ. My younger son used to be a good kid. Then he went to UW-Madison. Stayed for a PhD. He's ruined.

Take my advice. Get out of there.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Offline walkstall

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in complete agreement.

like I said earlier - I'd laugh this off if this girl didn't represent so much of academia today.  (sorry, who am I kidding - almost all of academia.  I would know, I attend the University of Wisconsin.)

Young man, when you get to be my age.  You will know it's only what you think of yourself that counts.    I quit caring what people were thinking about me over 75 years ago.   :lol: 
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.  ~ Ronald Reagan ~

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Offline GuyMontag

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Christ. My younger son used to be a good kid. Then he went to UW-Madison. Stayed for a PhD. He's ruined.

Take my advice. Get out of there.

I'm a year away from finishing my degree, and I'm even more right-wing than I was when I started there.  I doubt I have anything to worry about.

I've got to reiterate, though, these are not the radicals of the 1960s and 1970s.  I'm right now reading Rules for Radicals (know your enemy) and I'm certain that Saul Alinsky would be considered a racist today. 

There's an anecdote in there where he talks about how being blunt with people is a good thing.  he says he was at a dinner with his Mexican activist friends, and had never had a bite of their food before.  He took a bite, and snapped "how in the hell can you people eat this crap?  are you all crazy?"  and they all burst out laughing.

it isn't a good sign when you look back on the radicals of the past as "saner".
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 08:49:28 PM by GuyMontag »

 

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