BTW, one last thing on Hitler/Stalin. The Second World War would never have started without Hitler and Stalin engaging in mutual fellatio. No Non Aggression Pact, no WW2. So bullshit crap about the US sucking up to Stalin really doesn't fly. So what, we needed him at the time. His enemy was our enemy, and that lasted for about five minutes after the war was over (Cold War and all that). The fact that Stalin was a vicious asshole does nothing to change the fact that the people he was fighting were also vicious assholes. Doesn't make them better, doesn't make them worse. In a perfect world, we could have supplied both sides until they exterminated each other.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 11, 2011, 10:16:32 AM
See my point above about Waffen SS. IT was VOLUNTARY. It was a NAZI organization.

...and? His unit was NEVER charged NOR ACCUSED of committing war crimes. Guilt by association is juvenile. You must look at the individual units and the individual themselves when making judgements.

Otherwise, you end up with the idiotic belief that the US Army is evil because of war crimes committed by US personnel.

QuoteIf he wanted to fight for Finland, he could have done so in the Finnish Army.

He did.

Quote
And why do you believe he didn't commit war crimes?

Because there is no documented proof that he or his battalion did anything other then serve honorably. Had the battalion done so, then there would have been accusations and trials like what was done with other SS units and regular army.

QuoteWhat other reason might not he have been simply admitted to the US. And then again, why did he leave his native Finland?

Finlandization. Look it up.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 11, 2011, 10:24:13 AM
BTW, one last thing on Hitler/Stalin. The Second World War would never have started without Hitler and Stalin engaging in mutual fellatio. No Non Aggression Pact, no WW2. So bullshit crap about the US sucking up to Stalin really doesn't fly. So what, we needed him at the time. His enemy was our enemy, and that lasted for about five minutes after the war was over (Cold War and all that). The fact that Stalin was a vicious asshole does nothing to change the fact that the people he was fighting were also vicious assholes. Doesn't make them better, doesn't make them worse. In a perfect world, we could have supplied both sides until they exterminated each other.

Fact. FDR and Churchill handed eastern Europe over to Stalin.

Fact. The US and UK handed over thousands of Eastern European refugees to the Soviets that mainly ended up being shot or sent into forced labor camps.

You want to rationalize the US allying with the evil empire because we had a common enemy, yet want to demonize Larry Thorne for joining an organization with whom he shared a common foe.

Quote from: Danny Borden on June 11, 2011, 10:31:24 PM
...and? His unit was NEVER charged NOR ACCUSED of committing war crimes. Guilt by association is juvenile. You must look at the individual units and the individual themselves when making judgements.

Otherwise, you end up with the idiotic belief that the US Army is evil because of war crimes committed by US personnel.

The purpose of the SS was first as a bodyguard to Hitler. Second as an example of the superiority of the pure Aryan. Third to fight the "Jewish Bolsheviks". INDIVIDUAL Americans committed war crimes. Those crimes were never the policy of the US government or the US Army. And even the Wafeen SS supported the genocidal policies of the Third Reich. They murdered Jews and other "subhumans", murdered people in occupied countries. And even murdered American and British POWs. The idea that somehow this one individual shouldn't be tarred with the brush of the organization he fought for is asinine. What when his fellow Waffen SS were hanging villagers, he refused to take part. Or did he just sort of stand off to the side - so as not to get any blood on his uniform?

QuoteBecause there is no documented proof that he or his battalion did anything other then serve honorably. Had the battalion done so, then there would have been accusations and trials like what was done with other SS units and regular army.

Off course when you've killed most of the witnesses, that makes it easier to cheat justice. And why not stay in his "beloved" Finland. Afraid a witness might show up some day? That why he ran off to South America - like Eichmann and Mengele. I guess it was because they didn't like the new Germany.

Quote from: Danny Borden on June 11, 2011, 10:48:01 PM
Fact. FDR and Churchill handed eastern Europe over to Stalin.

Fact. The US and UK handed over thousands of Eastern European refugees to the Soviets that mainly ended up being shot or sent into forced labor camps.

You want to rationalize the US allying with the evil empire because we had a common enemy, yet want to demonize Larry Thorne for joining an organization with whom he shared a common foe.

Fact. They didn't "hand it over". The RED ARMY conquered it. When the shooting stopped they had "boots on the ground". What? You were expecting the US to go immediately into World War 3?

Fact. And the US and Great Britain shouldn't have repatriated East European nationals back to their countries of origin? Why? Because they claimed to hate communism? Some of those East European nationals were captured in Wehrmacht uniforms. Turning your coat tends to be frowned upon. Ask Lord Haw Haw or Tokyo Rose.

The US Allied with the Soviet Union because it was do that or lose the war. In case you've never picked up a history book, it was the Red Army that really defeated the Nazis. And as I've said a number of times, it wasn't that Thorne fought against the Soviets - it's who he fought with. He could have fought the entire war with the Finnish Army, no problem. But he voluntarily joined the Waffen SS, when there was no need to do so if he simply wanted to fight the Soviets. I only hope that his later life was him trying to atone for the mistakes he made in his earlier life.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 12, 2011, 01:59:22 PM
The purpose of the SS was first as a bodyguard to Hitler. Second as an example of the superiority of the pure Aryan. Third to fight the "Jewish Bolsheviks". INDIVIDUAL Americans committed war crimes. Those crimes were never the policy of the US government or the US Army. And even the Wafeen SS supported the genocidal policies of the Third Reich. They murdered Jews and other "subhumans", murdered people in occupied countries. And even murdered American and British POWs. The idea that somehow this one individual shouldn't be tarred with the brush of the organization he fought for is asinine. What when his fellow Waffen SS were hanging villagers, he refused to take part. Or did he just sort of stand off to the side - so as not to get any blood on his uniform?

I don't give a rat's ass what the SS started out as. It's irrelevant towards this discussion along with the war crimes perpetrated by other SS units. Thorne's battalion was never charged or accused of any. End of discussion.

QuoteOff course when you've killed most of the witnesses, that makes it easier to cheat justice. And why not stay in his "beloved" Finland. Afraid a witness might show up some day? That why he ran off to South America - like Eichmann and Mengele. I guess it was because they didn't like the new Germany.

Blah, blah, blah. You asset that Thorne's battalion was guilty of war crime. Prove it or concede the debate.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 12, 2011, 02:14:53 PM
Fact. They didn't "hand it over". The RED ARMY conquered it. When the shooting stopped they had "boots on the ground". What? You were expecting the US to go immediately into World War 3?

It would have been better to follow Patton and grind the Soviets into dust while we had the large army and logistics train in place to do so instead of fucking around until they acquired nuclear weapons.

Quote
Fact. And the US and Great Britain shouldn't have repatriated East European nationals back to their countries of origin? Why? Because they claimed to hate communism? Some of those East European nationals were captured in Wehrmacht uniforms. Turning your coat tends to be frowned upon. Ask Lord Haw Haw or Tokyo Rose.

They weren't repatriated to their countries of origin. They were mostly shot or sent to Gulags.

QuoteThe US Allied with the Soviet Union because it was do that or lose the war. In case you've never picked up a history book, it was the Red Army that really defeated the Nazis.

LMAO. The Soviets never would have made it as far as they did without the US providing key logistical support along with opening up fronts in Italy, Normandy, bleeding the Luftwaffe dry, and destroying German infrastructure with bombing raids. General Zhukov himself admitted that despite what Soviet propaganda says.

Zhukov:

"Speaking about our readiness for war from the point of view of the economy and economics, one cannot be silent about such a factor as the subsequent help from the Allies. First of all, certainly, from the American side, because in that respect the English helped us minimally. In an analysis of all facets of the war, one must not leave this out of one's reckoning. We would have been in a serious condition without American gunpowder, and could not have turned out the quantity of ammunition which we needed. Without American `Studebekkers' [sic], we could have dragged our artillery nowhere. Yes, in general, to a considerable degree they provided ourfront transport. The output of special steel, necessary for the most diverse necessities of war, were also connected to a series of American deliveries."

"It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have formed our reserves and ***could not have continued the war*** . . . we had no explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet steel did they give us. We really could not have quickly put right our production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."

QuoteAnd as I've said a number of times, it wasn't that Thorne fought against the Soviets - it's who he fought with. He could have fought the entire war with the Finnish Army, no problem. But he voluntarily joined the Waffen SS, when there was no need to do so if he simply wanted to fight the Soviets. I only hope that his later life was him trying to atone for the mistakes he made in his earlier life.

He fought with the Finnish Army until they signed a treaty with the Soviets ending the Continuum War and conceding territory that included his home town. There was no other place to go to fight communists at the time except to join the SS.

QuoteI don't give a rat's ass what the SS started out as. It's irrelevant towards this discussion along with the war crimes perpetrated by other SS units. Thorne's battalion was never charged or accused of any. End of discussion.

No, the SS was KNOWN FOR THE WAR CRIMES THEY COMMITTED. It's not a question of me proving that one individual member was involved in crimes which ARE A MATTER OF HISTORICAL RECORD. It's a question of that individual proving he wasn't involved in the barbarisms his organization was known for. Either you've never picked up a history book. Or you simply have another agenda.

QuoteBlah, blah, blah. You asset that Thorne's battalion was guilty of war crime. Prove it or concede the debate.

As I said, I don't have to prove crapola. He wore their uniform - no make that he VOLUNTEERED to wear their uniform - and somehow I should have to prove he was the one with the clean hands. How about the organization he belonged to hand hands covered in blood to the elbows and should ALWAYS BE PRESUMED GUILTY, unless THAT INDIVIDUAL can show proof positive to the contrary. There is no reason to give any former Nazi the benefit of the doubt. They don't deserve it. And if you believe that any of them do, you're - at best - historically ignorant. I not going to assume his innocence simply because they made sure to get rid of all of the evidence.

QuoteIt would have been better to follow Patton and grind the Soviets into dust while we had the large army and logistics train in place to do so instead of fucking around until they acquired nuclear weapons.

Probably true. But then again I wasn't in some line battalion asked to fight someone who had just been my ally yesterday. I wasn't going to be the one to have to convince the American people to start a new war against someone I'd just had to convince them was our ally in the first place. But WTF, it's easy to sit here 65 years later and think of what our parents - or in your case probably grandparents - should have done.

QuoteThey weren't repatriated to their countries of origin. They were mostly shot or sent to Gulags.

Like I said, historically ignorant. It was mainly Russian POW's and Slave Laborers that were sent back to the Soviet Union. Of course Stalin sent them right to the Gulag or shot them, but what would you have had the Western Allies do? The only problem I have, is that they also sent Russian emigres - many of whom had left Russian after the revolution or during the Civil War - back to the Soviet Union. Now that was just wrong.

QuoteLMAO. The Soviets never would have made it as far as they did without the US providing key logistical support along with opening up fronts in Italy, Normandy, bleeding the Luftwaffe dry, and destroying German infrastructure with bombing raids. General Zhukov himself admitted that despite what Soviet propaganda says.

The Wehrmacht was bleed dry on the Eastern front - where the majority of their troops and armor were ALWAYS located. Of course we supplied the Soviet Union - The US was - one of, or -the main supplier for ALL of our allies. The Red Army traveled in American Trucks, flew on American aviation fuel, moved supplies with American locomotives, and communicated via American telephone wire. However the Soviets provide the bodies. As an old Soviet veteran put it: "We drowned the Germans in an ocean of Russian blood". And yes, the destruction of the Luftwaffe was mainly accomplished by the Allied Air Forces over Germany. That deprived the Germans of the tactical arm that they had used to win their first victories in Europe. But the Soviets were still all important. The Germans should thank the Soviets - without the Soviets, they wouldn't have been defeated a year after D-Day, and the first A-bombs would have landed on German cities.

QuoteHe fought with the Finnish Army until they signed a treaty with the Soviets ending the Continuum War and conceding territory that included his home town. There was no other place to go to fight communists at the time except to join the SS.

The Continuation War was over in September of 1944. And the treaty line brought the borders back to those agreed upon after the Winter War. After that came the Lapland War, when the Finns were fighting the GERMANS. So your patriotic Finn really couldn't go home because he had served in the armed forces of Finland's enemy. Not because of some hatred of Finlandization, but because he was just another Quisling. Of course he could have gone back to his old home town, but that was now inside the Soviet Union - and ex SS men weren't really popular inside the Soviet Union. So. He couldn't go home (now in USSR) and he couldn't go back to Finland (he had fought with Finland's enemies), wonder why he didn't go to Germany? Oh right, Germany was occupied by the Allies and - unlike you - they didn't accept it when some ex SS man claimed to be as pure as the driven snow.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 14, 2011, 07:50:07 AM
No, the SS was KNOWN FOR THE WAR CRIMES THEY COMMITTED. It's not a question of me proving that one individual member was involved in crimes which ARE A MATTER OF HISTORICAL RECORD. It's a question of that individual proving he wasn't involved in the barbarisms his organization was known for. Either you've never picked up a history book. Or you simply have another agenda.As I said, I don't have to prove crapola. He wore their uniform - no make that he VOLUNTEERED to wear their uniform - and somehow I should have to prove he was the one with the clean hands. How about the organization he belonged to hand hands covered in blood to the elbows and should ALWAYS BE PRESUMED GUILTY, unless THAT INDIVIDUAL can show proof positive to the contrary. There is no reason to give any former Nazi the benefit of the doubt. They don't deserve it. And if you believe that any of them do, you're - at best - historically ignorant. I not going to assume his innocence simply because they made sure to get rid of all of the evidence.

Again. WHAT OTHER SS UNITS did is IRRELEVANT towards this discussion. The discussion is about Thorne. His battalion was NEVER CHARGED OR ACCUSED OF ANY WAR CRIMES. PERIOD.

Also, I will always give someone who served in this country's armed forces and died during that service the benefit of the doubt until there is concrete evidence PROVING that they were a war criminal. As it stands, you don't have one goddamned bit of proof or even an accusation saying that he was a war criminal.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 14, 2011, 08:29:50 AM
Probably true. But then again I wasn't in some line battalion asked to fight someone who had just been my ally yesterday. I wasn't going to be the one to have to convince the American people to start a new war against someone I'd just had to convince them was our ally in the first place. But WTF, it's easy to sit here 65 years later and think of what our parents - or in your case probably grandparents - should have done.

Oh, you mean exactly like you're doing with Thorne.

QuoteLike I said, historically ignorant. It was mainly Russian POW's and Slave Laborers that were sent back to the Soviet Union. Of course Stalin sent them right to the Gulag or shot them, but what would you have had the Western Allies do? The only problem I have, is that they also sent Russian emigres - many of whom had left Russian after the revolution or during the Civil War - back to the Soviet Union. Now that was just wrong.

You don't have a problem with the systematic murder and forced labor of thousands of refugees because the Soviets were our "friends" at the time. Got it.

QuoteThe Wehrmacht was bleed dry on the Eastern front - where the majority of their troops and armor were ALWAYS located. Of course we supplied the Soviet Union - The US was - one of, or -the main supplier for ALL of our allies. The Red Army traveled in American Trucks, flew on American aviation fuel, moved supplies with American locomotives, and communicated via American telephone wire. However the Soviets provide the bodies. As an old Soviet veteran put it: "We drowned the Germans in an ocean of Russian blood". And yes, the destruction of the Luftwaffe was mainly accomplished by the Allied Air Forces over Germany. That deprived the Germans of the tactical arm that they had used to win their first victories in Europe. But the Soviets were still all important. The Germans should thank the Soviets - without the Soviets, they wouldn't have been defeated a year after D-Day, and the first A-bombs would have landed on German cities.

The Germans lost any chance they had of winning the war when they declared war on the United States

QuoteThe Continuation War was over in September of 1944. And the treaty line brought the borders back to those agreed upon after the Winter War. After that came the Lapland War, when the Finns were fighting the GERMANS. So your patriotic Finn really couldn't go home because he had served in the armed forces of Finland's enemy. Not because of some hatred of Finlandization, but because he was just another Quisling. Of course he could have gone back to his old home town, but that was now inside the Soviet Union - and ex SS men weren't really popular inside the Soviet Union. So. He couldn't go home (now in USSR) and he couldn't go back to Finland (he had fought with Finland's enemies), wonder why he didn't go to Germany? Oh right, Germany was occupied by the Allies and - unlike you - they didn't accept it when some ex SS man claimed to be as pure as the driven snow.

Do you even know what Finlandization is? Thorne did go home after the war. He, along with a number of other Finnish officers, were forced out of the country for caching weapons to protect against future Soviet aggression after the Soviets and Finnish communists found out about it.

Most of those officers found their way into the US and into the Special Forces community before Thorne did. They vouched for him along with the former head of the OSS. I'll take their view on the matter over yours.

Quote from: Danny Borden on June 14, 2011, 03:31:54 PM
Again. WHAT OTHER SS UNITS did is IRRELEVANT towards this discussion. The discussion is about Thorne. His battalion was NEVER CHARGED OR ACCUSED OF ANY WAR CRIMES. PERIOD.

Also, I will always give someone who served in this country's armed forces and died during that service the benefit of the doubt until there is concrete evidence PROVING that they were a war criminal. As it stands, you don't have one goddamned bit of proof or even an accusation saying that he was a war criminal.

No it is not irrelevant. We BOTH take the position that communists are bad. We don't require that they prove that they actual took part in or supported the atrocities that the Soviet government - as a group - engaged in. Why are we not supposed to make they same assumption about Nazis? Note - it isn't a question of him being a civilian caught up in the war. He VOLUNTEERED - a word you can't seem to comprehend - to be part of a specifically Nazi organization. Yet, in your mind some how, some way, he should be exempt from any association with that organization's crimes. His war - as a citizen of Finland - with the Soviets was over in 1944. After that the Finns were at war with Germany - whose armed forces he joined. Any excuses for him having done it for Finland, go out the window at that point. If he still wanted to fight the Soviets, I'm sure the Wehrmacht would have taken him. And as I said, and you refuse to comprehend, simply being a member of the SS was to be a member of a group labeled a criminal organization at the end of WW2. I don't have to prove him guilty, he has to show himself to be innocent.

Maybe my standards are a little higher. Simply because he served in the country's armed services shouldn't give him blanket amnesty for any acts he committed in the past. The US armed services isn't the French Foreign Legion. Had they known of his past the would have discharged him. So obviously he lied there also. His service was simply hiding in plain sight.

QuoteOh, you mean exactly like you're doing with Thorne.

WTF? 65 years ago Thorne was member of the SS. That's something you and I agree on. Perhaps he should have tried to surrender to the Americans after Malmedy or the Canadians after Normandy. Then we wouldn't need to have this conversation. BTW, DID he surrender to Allied Forces, and if not, why?

QuoteYou don't have a problem with the systematic murder and forced labor of thousands of refugees because the Soviets were our "friends" at the time. Got it.

No you don't get it? What exactly should the Allies have done with RUSSIAN POW's and RUSSIAN slave laborers. They sent them back to RUSSIA, where the RUSSIANS mistreated them. The Russians were supposed to have gotten their people back, that's a given. That they treated them badly is on the Russians, not the Allies. I've already said that it was wrong to send back emigres and people who had fled Russia decades earlier. But a lot of that was the doing of Soviet agents all through the western governments.

QuoteThe Germans lost any chance they had of winning the war when they declared war on the United States

Actually the lost any chance when, Zhokov was able to bring the Siberian divisions west in time to save Moscow. After that it was just a question of time. Indeed it could be said that when the Germans delayed Barbarossa by two months to pull Mussolini's chestnuts out of the fire, in Greece. That two month delay gave Zhokov the time he needed. In any case the US entry didn't insure German defeat, it just insured that it would be quicker.

QuoteDo you even know what Finlandization is? Thorne did go home after the war. He, along with a number of other Finnish officers, were forced out of the country for caching weapons to protect against future Soviet aggression after the Soviets and Finnish communists found out about it.

Most of those officers found their way into the US and into the Special Forces community before Thorne did. They vouched for him along with the former head of the OSS. I'll take their view on the matter over yours.

I know exactly what it was. It was the reduction of Finland to little more than a client state. Not physically occupied by the Soviet Union, but having all its governmental decision subject to a Moscow veto. So he had to leave after breaking the law, as if the could ever cache enough weapons to defeat the Red Army. Good luck with that one. So, in other words he was one of those former Nazi's that the US looked the other way on because they had - or at least claimed to have - knowledge of the workings of the Soviet military. And he was vouched for by other SS men - who woulda thought! BTW, few of these ever turned out to have any real knowledge of the Soviets. And the OSS, which wasn't that successful, turned into the even more incompetent CIA. And you should never accept someone's words simply because they claim to be "authoritative", always do the research yourself.