Quote from: Solar on April 08, 2019, 03:41:44 PM
Yeah, the military demands conformity, don't ask questions, just follow orders, if you don't understand them precisely, you ask the squad leader.
There is a chain of command for a reason, so the lowly private doesn't waste the time of his commanders.
If you still don't understand the orders, they simply give you a new assigned task, like latrine duty, grounds keeping, painting everything green that doesn't move.

Anyway, that's how it was 40+ years ago. I highly doubt it has changed all that much.

Back when most of us were growing up the military was not the only place you were taught those basics. It came from parents, teachers and coaches as well.

Quote from: T Hunt on April 09, 2019, 04:28:20 AM
Srry to be the bearer of bad news but it has. I was in in the late 2000s and I had a squad leader who had been in since the first gulf war and he wld tell me about how much it had changed since then.

For instance as I was getting out I was hearing that in basic they now get at least one Stress Card that they can use to stop the drill sergeants if the kid was too stressed out. I can only imagine that under obozo it just got worse.

https://www.stripes.com/blogs-archive/the-rumor-doctor/the-rumor-doctor-1.104348/did-the-army-ever-issue-stress-cards-to-recruits-1.151803

Quote from: supsalemgr on April 09, 2019, 04:40:08 AM
Back when most of us were growing up the military was not the only place you were taught those basics. It came from parents, teachers and coaches as well.

So True. In fact the military counted on basic conformity as a starting point, be it love of country, or basic respect for one another, you know, common traits of man. It must really be a bitch breaking them down from "hood" or "The Block" think, like "You Dissed me Man", hard looks, wrong looks.
I've no doubt they had to fight the gang colors issue as well, because in the military, you're one gang.
I never considered the headache of destroyed families, no father, Hell, no real mother but a gang. I bet the psyche exam weeds out 90% of recruits these days. Makes for pretty slim pickings.

Quote from: Solar on April 09, 2019, 06:28:28 AM
https://www.stripes.com/blogs-archive/the-rumor-doctor/the-rumor-doctor-1.104348/did-the-army-ever-issue-stress-cards-to-recruits-1.151803

You've got to be shitting me! Everyone talked about these like they were a real new thing coming in. Just a sec while I check this...

Holy shit! It is fake for the most part. No official stress cards. I did find one example of someone being given something like a stress card but it was just an individual case not a policy.
https://www.opslens.com/2016/11/politically-correct-military-stress-cards-correlation-safe-spaces/

Wow. It is amazing how an entire group can fall for the same rumor.

That's said I think my initial point still stands, that's basic was getting easier as Obama was coming in. Even my own drill sergeants complained about not being able to say certain things to us. Of course they would smile and say them anyways when the CO wasn't around.

For instance I know one ritual was dying out because others I talked to didnt go thru it. At the end of basic when we got our infant pins we all lined up and put the pins on WITHOUT BACKINGS. Then the drills wld come along and give us each a nice long loving punch right on the pin, driving it into our flesh. This meant alot to me , but it certainly isnt sanctioned and I've heard from some who never did that.

Quote from: T Hunt on April 09, 2019, 07:29:24 AM
You've got to be shitting me! Everyone talked about these like they were a real new thing coming in. Just a sec while I check this...

Holy shit! It is fake for the most part. No official stress cards. I did find one example of someone being given something like a stress card but it was just an individual case not a policy.
https://www.opslens.com/2016/11/politically-correct-military-stress-cards-correlation-safe-spaces/

Wow. It is amazing how an entire group can fall for the same rumor.

That's said I think my initial point still stands, that's basic was getting easier as Obama was coming in. Even my own drill sergeants complained about not being able to say certain things to us. Of course they would smile and say them anyways when the CO wasn't around.

For instance I know one ritual was dying out because others I talked to didnt go thru it. At the end of basic when we got our infant pins we all lined up and put the pins on WITHOUT BACKINGS. Then the drills wld come along and give us each a nice long loving punch right on the pin, driving it into our flesh. This meant alot to me , but it certainly isnt sanctioned and I've heard from some who never did that.

And that's the reason it seemed so credible, because of the damage the left has always done to our military.
I went in under Nixon, then Carter entered the scene, within 3 months morale had plummeted. Deadlined vehicles, replacement parts near impossible to get, equipment failure and most was because of his Middle East debacle over fuel.
We were rationed. no longer allowed to diesel down vehicles, kind of like spraying the entire tank or Jeep with WD-40 once a week, it was a cleaning agent as well as a lubricant, but it got worse, we were hitting 30 below in the Winter, windchill's 70 below, and no heat, Carter had rationed us to 5 gallons a night a heater that needed 10 gallons to heat a 30 by 100' drafty ass  Quonset hut for 8hrs.
The Army had been refused to issue extra blankets, so we were forced to screw with the carburetor to be as stingy as possible, so we could wake to freezing, instead of well below.
Those 5 gallons had to stretch to 8 hrs and that was virtually impossible in an uninsulated galvanized halfpipe tube.

Everyone was cranky, the entire camp, even the villagers were affected by our failed morale, far more than Kim Jong Il could ever accomplish. North Korean papers were laughing at our plight, yes, they made it front-page news the entire time I was there, and we deserved it, so to speak, anyway, Carter deserved it.
But it was this loss of morale that made us vulnerable and NK seized on the opportunity, from cross border skirmishes to IED's down the river, (though we simply called them booby traps then).

So in truth, this card isn't all that unbelievable considering what Carter oil crisis, Clinton (don't ask, don't tell) and the Marxist forcing the cultural change to a millennium of tradition, in forcing the military to allow sexual freaks amongst those dedicated to our very survival, now these same soldiers had one more thing to worry about, male on male rape.

It's obvious the left hates the military as well as our country, so much so, even the strangest roomer can become the norm.

Quote from: supsalemgr on April 09, 2019, 04:40:08 AM
Back when most of us were growing up the military was not the only place you were taught those basics. It came from parents, teachers and coaches as well.

I don't agree with this philosophy.  The philosophy of unquestionable obedience to a given authority.  B/c if I'm put on trial for something, "obeying orders" is not a valid defense.

Another thing, not all authority is an expert on everything.

Quote from: alienhand on April 11, 2019, 10:28:23 PM
I don't agree with this philosophy.  The philosophy of unquestionable obedience to a given authority.  B/c if I'm put on trial for something, "obeying orders" is not a valid defense.

Another thing, not all authority is an expert on everything.

And therein lies your basic problem. Understanding authority does not mean blind dedication. It is basic respect for authority. My parents were not brilliant people, but they knew a heck of a lot more than I did. As I look back on my parents, teachers and coaches I have no memory of bad advice.

Quote from: supsalemgr on April 12, 2019, 04:44:33 AM
And therein lies your basic problem. Understanding authority does not mean blind dedication. It is basic respect for authority. My parents were not brilliant people, but they knew a heck of a lot more than I did. As I look back on my parents, teachers and coaches I have no memory of bad advice.

Ah my friend, I see!  In other words, I'm taking what you all are saying on authority to literally and to ironclad.  In other words, I missed the context.  That's what happened!

Note to self:  When others communicate they have a certain context and intent they're coming from.  Make sure to understand the context and intent.

And, I wouldn't mind doing Latrine duty.  It wouldn't be the 1st time I cleaned up shit. 

Quote from: alienhand on April 12, 2019, 06:49:49 AM
Ah my friend, I see!  In other words, I'm taking what you all are saying on authority to literally and to ironclad.  In other words, I missed the context.  That's what happened!

Note to self:  When others communicate they have a certain context and intent they're coming from.  Make sure to understand the context and intent.

You should read some of the ancients work on thinking, like Machiavelli, or any one of the great thinkers of the past.
It may help give you a bit more insight into how real thinkers tackled the real problems.

Quote from: Solar on April 12, 2019, 07:49:32 AM
You should read some of the ancients work on thinking, like Machiavelli, or any one of the great thinkers of the past.
It may help give you a bit more insight into how real thinkers tackled the real problems.

I assume when you mean Machiavelli you mean Niccolo Machiavelli who wrote the book called "The Prince" and he said and I will paraphrase "A wise Prince will always keep his subjects in need of him so they may be faithful to him."  And, not Tupac, right?

Quote from: alienhand on April 12, 2019, 09:00:37 AM
I assume when you mean Machiavelli you mean Niccolo Machiavelli who wrote the book called "The Prince" and he said and I will paraphrase "A wise Prince will always keep his subjects in need of him so they may be faithful to him."  And, not Tupac, right?

Just in general reading, but yes, Niccolò Machiavelli.

Quote from: Solar on April 12, 2019, 09:53:53 AM
Just in general reading, but yes, Niccolò Machiavelli.

got ya

Quote from: supsalemgr on April 12, 2019, 04:44:33 AM
And therein lies your basic problem. Understanding authority does not mean blind dedication. It is basic respect for authority. My parents were not brilliant people, but they knew a heck of a lot more than I did. As I look back on my parents, teachers and coaches I have no memory of bad advice.

Sir, you must've lived in the town of Pleasantville then where everything is perfect and nothing ever goes wrong, authorities who give perfect advice, have the perfect circumstances, understand everything perfectly, their way of doing things is perfect and is completely selfless.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasantville_(film)

The millennials (or a number of them) are at where they're at including but not limited having student loan debt b/c of authority of those around them.  It was b/c they listened to their parents, educators and those who were in charge of them they're at where they're at.  Were they taught the way they were supposed to go by their parents, educators and others who were in charge of them as the Bible admonishes them to do? 

If these "authorities" don't uphold their part and fill their charges with a bunch of lies and nonsense then how can one expect these charges to have the respect expected?  Or these same authorities or at least some of them expect their charges to "figure it out themselves through life experiences."  The millennials are where they're at b/c of those who had authority over them helped to lay down and the foundations of the world we live in today.   

Respect has to come from trust.  The trust in knowing that the advice being given is based in truth and not based in ignorance or duplicity.   Quite honestly, I don't trust most authority figures.  Authority figures are human and vulnerable to their own biases, prejudices, frailties,  and their own imperfections.  Even the Bible said to be aware of false prophets.  To me, a trustworthy authority figure is open minded to being questioned and open to being wrong on something.  And, they're willing to do what is right and thirst for righteousness and to thirst for why this something is righteousness.  They're willing to investigate matters at hand and accept opposing evidence to their views and ways of doing things. 

And, that's the thing.  The next generation after the millennial need to hold those in authority over them accountable especially when it comes to their future.  The future in theirs.  Their lives are their own.  They're personally responsible for themselves right and how their future will turn out.   Their future is determined by the choices they make now and knowing what the truth is, correct?  How can they do this if they're expected to submit themselves to authorities and these same authorities proclaim themselves as wise when these authorities are not as wise as they claim and give them a bunch of bullshit advice?

It doesn't mean that one should go out of his way to disrespect them, break laws or be rebellious for the sake of being rebellious.  It doesn't mean to wear a mohawk cause everyone else wears a suit and tie.  It means to hearken on to wise council and disregard the council that is false and not to let someone else's hypocrisy determine the choices one makes. 

And, I think one of my teachers in my past was a pedophile.  I didn't know the term at the time but I knew something was wrong.  He liked this girl a lot way more then seemed appropriate.  I didn't respect him then and I sure as shit don't respect him now. 

I respectfully somewhat disagree.  If respect means common courtesy I think we can be courteous and have common courtesy but if it means do what they want with no question especially if it affect's one's future then I'm very skeptical on this. 

Do you all see why I don't trust authority and hold them in the same regard as you all do?  I just can't.

Quote from: alienhand on April 16, 2019, 10:19:57 PM
Sir, you must've lived in the town of Pleasantville then where everything is perfect and nothing ever goes wrong, authorities who give perfect advice, have the perfect circumstances, understand everything perfectly, their way of doing things is perfect and is completely selfless.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasantville_(film)

The millennials (or a number of them) are at where they're at including but not limited having student loan debt b/c of authority of those around them.  It was b/c they listened to their parents, educators and those who were in charge of them they're at where they're at.  Were they taught the way they were supposed to go by their parents, educators and others who were in charge of them as the Bible admonishes them to do? 

If these "authorities" don't uphold their part and fill their charges with a bunch of lies and nonsense then how can one expect these charges to have the respect expected?  Or these same authorities or at least some of them expect their charges to "figure it out themselves through life experiences."  The millennials are where they're at b/c of those who had authority over them helped to lay down and the foundations of the world we live in today.   

Respect has to come from trust.  The trust in knowing that the advice being given is based in truth and not based in ignorance or duplicity.   Quite honestly, I don't trust most authority figures.  Authority figures are human and vulnerable to their own biases, prejudices, frailties,  and their own imperfections.  Even the Bible said to be aware of false prophets.  To me, a trustworthy authority figure is open minded to being questioned and open to being wrong on something.  And, they're willing to do what is right and thirst for righteousness and to thirst for why this something is righteousness.  They're willing to investigate matters at hand and accept opposing evidence to their views and ways of doing things. 

And, that's the thing.  The next generation after the millennial need to hold those in authority over them accountable especially when it comes to their future.  The future in theirs.  Their lives are their own.  They're personally responsible for themselves right and how their future will turn out.   Their future is determined by the choices they make now and knowing what the truth is, correct?  How can they do this if they're expected to submit themselves to authorities and these same authorities proclaim themselves as wise when these authorities are not as wise as they claim and give them a bunch of bullshit advice?

It doesn't mean that one should go out of his way to disrespect them, break laws or be rebellious for the sake of being rebellious.  It doesn't mean to wear a mohawk cause everyone else wears a suit and tie.  It means to hearken on to wise council and disregard the council that is false and not to let someone else's hypocrisy determine the choices one makes. 

And, I think one of my teachers in my past was a pedophile.  I didn't know the term at the time but I knew something was wrong.  He liked this girl a lot way more then seemed appropriate.  I didn't respect him then and I sure as shit don't respect him now. 

I respectfully somewhat disagree.  If respect means common courtesy I think we can be courteous and have common courtesy but if it means do what they want with no question especially if it affect's one's future then I'm very skeptical on this. 

Do you all see why I don't trust authority and hold them in the same regard as you all do?  I just can't.

"Sir, you must've lived in the town of Pleasantville then where everything is perfect and nothing ever goes wrong, authorities who give perfect advice, have the perfect circumstances, understand everything perfectly, their way of doing things is perfect and is completely selfless."

I grew up in the 50's in the segregated south. Therefore, I was not immune to less than "nice" talk and actions. Those who had not experienced those times would have a hard time comprehending what it was like.

I am sorry you mistrust authority. Quite frankly, that is a personal challenge. There are plenty examples of positive authority situations. This is where an individual must seek out the positive. Remember this old saying"

"If you think can - you're right. If you think think you can't - you are right".

It is up to you my friend.