Reasons for American Black Crime Rates and Poverty

Started by Mountainshield, August 11, 2015, 03:50:07 AM

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Mountainshield

Damn took the time to write this as a response to a racist that started a thread in general forum, might post it here if anyone have any thoughts about this as it is one of the topics we regularly encounter.

Problem with Africa is that it is mostly a socialist hellhole due to western aid to dictators and USSR, NK and China propping up in de facto communist vassal states.

In Cuba blacks are being oppressed under communist rule, same goes for many Latin American countries that have institutional racism built into it's structure such as blacks being barred from entering certain military branches, financial institutions and government directorates. All of which comes from the legacy of slavery which is a historical fact you can't ignore. If you expect that you can devastate families, remove all support network, break traditional culture and values, have centuries or decades of slave servitude without leaving both genetic and cultural impact on a people then you are a fool.

The salvation of African slaves has been Protestant Christianity, through it's value of family and hard work black communities have been able to grow and even thrive in most countries now that socialism has been negated with free market opening up in Latin American countries. The general starting point for a African descendent has been the gutter whereas whites have had centuries of property and education generally speaking at the end of the time of troubles and civil war in Latin America. But today thanks to Capitalism you have black parents working in low wage jobs being able to send their kids to college, technical education or get marketable skill. But black families have a disproportionate amount of poverty due to the starting point being much worse in general than white and just like whites in poverty their chances of becoming criminal or lost in drugs is higher and that's why you get more violent and crime ridden black communities disproportionate to white.

Now if you are a liberal you start to subsidize black with welfare to speed up the gap, but this only traps black families in welfare because it is path of least resistance to a comfortable life just as whites in Europe don't want to work because of generous welfare. If you are a conservative however you will let the free market solve the problem which it does, but like all things it takes time. Centuries of slavery can only be redeemed through centuries of hard work and individual self improvement for ones family.

Reason I mentioned genetics is because Latin American and American African descendants were bred for strength, endurance and willpower. Something you can clearly see in sports today. For example my Nigerian friend is skinny, average height for European and no muscular build whatsoever, compare that to a average American black and she looks like a pygmy. I don't want to delve too deep into genetics because I don't know enough about it but I would be surprised if it didn't have some effect on culture just as Jews have higher intelligence than whites and it has effect on their culture with them being highly intellectual.

Anyone else thought about this?

Dori

There are a lot of differences in blacks, just as there are in any race.

Look at doctor Carson.  He grew up poor, raised by a single mom in the inner city who had no education.  He was even an angry young man who got into some trouble.  Somehow he turned his situation around.  Unfortunately, he's the exception, not the rule.

Too many kids today are born without good role models or supportive parents.  Their moms are usually young and looking for someone to take care of them.  In steps Uncle Sam, and the cycle to poverty and lack of education begins.

Breaking the cycle is key, but we will always have poverty.  Some people are dysfunctional, and no matter how many opportunities you put in front of them, they won't take them, or move beyond where they are. 
The danger to America is not Barack Obama but the citizens capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.

Mountainshield

Quote from: Dori on August 11, 2015, 06:12:15 AM
There are a lot of differences in blacks, just as there are in any race.

Look at doctor Carson.  He grew up poor, raised by a single mom in the inner city who had no education.  He was even an angry young man who got into some trouble.  Somehow he turned his situation around.  Unfortunately, he's the exception, not the rule.

Too many kids today are born without good role models or supportive parents.  Their moms are usually young and looking for someone to take care of them.  In steps Uncle Sam, and the cycle to poverty and lack of education begins.

Breaking the cycle is key, but we will always have poverty.  Some people are dysfunctional, and no matter how many opportunities you put in front of them, they won't take them, or move beyond where they are.

Yes and the reason more black in the US have worse crime is because the culture they have is generally starting at point with no support network or good role models due to history of slavery. But thanks to Capitalism we have social mobility so any individual can now like you pointed out with Carson raise themselves and their family up. If you look at the countries with static social classes it is always socialist ones.

If we just let people take free choices in a free economy the differences between races and economic power will eventually close to the point where they are almost insignificant. Of course there will never be complete racial economic equality, because just like gender genetic differences have effect on large enough sample of people so for example Jews will always be on top economically because they are genetically predisposed through culture and genetic traits to achieve higher paying jobs whereas blacks are naturally more predisposed to entertainment industry and spirituality. Note that I'm not saying this is true for all individuals but if you take a sample of 100,000 people you will never have the same amount of race or even gender in any occupation or wage level.

Dori

Quote from: Mountainshield on August 11, 2015, 07:02:54 AM
Yes and the reason more black in the US have worse crime is because the culture they have is generally starting at point with no support network or good role models due to history of slavery. But thanks to Capitalism we have social mobility so any individual can now like you pointed out with Carson raise themselves and their family up. If you look at the countries with static social classes it is always socialist ones.

If we just let people take free choices in a free economy the differences between races and economic power will eventually close to the point where they are almost insignificant. Of course there will never be complete racial economic equality, because just like gender genetic differences have effect on large enough sample of people so for example Jews will always be on top economically because they are genetically predisposed through culture and genetic traits to achieve higher paying jobs whereas blacks are naturally more predisposed to entertainment industry and spirituality. Note that I'm not saying this is true for all individuals but if you take a sample of 100,000 people you will never have the same amount of race or even gender in any occupation or wage level.

I understand what your saying, but I don't agree with people being "predisposed" to anything according to race.  Circumstances they are brought up in yes, as it's a chosen culture, not one that's in their DNA.

I had a black boss from Africa.  She was smart and well educated and came from a close knit family and community.  She was not prejudiced towards any race except for the American blacks.  She asked "why do they have a chip on their shoulder"?.  Someone, an Asian lady, told her it was because of slavery.  She replied; "well they need to get over it". 
The danger to America is not Barack Obama but the citizens capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.

tac

Smart lady. The slavery mantra has been drilled into the minds of the black community for decades, and the `RATS have used that to keep them on the `RAT plantation. However they fail to comprehend that they are still slaves, slaves to a party that just uses them to stay in power.

Dori

We should start a thread where we showcase successful black people.
The danger to America is not Barack Obama but the citizens capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.

Solar

Quote from: Dori on August 11, 2015, 08:48:30 AM
We should start a thread where we showcase successful black people.
I did one a long time ago, I was overwhelmed with the amount of successful black individuals and families, that I could have posted 10s of thousands of links.
Point is, it's important to the left that these people not be highlighted. To do so would break their political grip from their shackled ankles.
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supsalemgr

Quote from: Solar on August 11, 2015, 12:01:31 PM
I did one a long time ago, I was overwhelmed with the amount of successful black individuals and families, that I could have posted 10s of thousands of links.
Point is, it's important to the left that these people not be highlighted. To do so would break their political grip from their shackled ankles.

Exactly right.

I was in sales management and had the opportunity to hire several Black sales people who became quite successful. I became friends with some and we had some conversations about this subject. There was one guy who was very successful and I asked him how his success was treated in his community. As a little background, his wife was a school teacher. He showed me a picture of him as a kid and his daddy who was a sharecropper in front of the meager home. He was proud and grateful from where he came from. He told me his family was almost shunned by many in his community because of his success. I found that very sad, but quite enlightening as to the core of the problems in the general Black community.
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

kroz

I do believe in genetic predispositions. 

That does not rule out exceptions.  Nor is it racist.

The simple truth is that different ethnicities have always had certain strengths and weaknesses.  Mountainshield's example of the Jewish ethnicity is a good example.  They are "generally" predisposed to excel in certain areas and we all know this.  Why go to great lengths to ignore it or explain it away?

Africans are known for their extraordinary strength and endurance.   Am I wrong?

It is also true that recognizing ethnic strengths are a good way to maximize successes in life.

Of course there are always exceptions to the ethnic trends.... but genetics are extremely important to understand and acknowledge.  They are not inherently good or bad.  They just are!

It would probably be wise to adjust our methods of education within some ethnic concentrations..... because genetics affect the way in which we perceive information and process it to a certain extent.  That is where Charter Schools could be very effective.  Latinos have their own set of strengths that can be very beneficial if properly trained.

I think we do humanity a disservice by trying to treat everyone the same way.  Much talent is lost when painted over with a broad brush.

Solar

Quote from: supsalemgr on August 11, 2015, 12:50:09 PM
Exactly right.

I was in sales management and had the opportunity to hire several Black sales people who became quite successful. I became friends with some and we had some conversations about this subject. There was one guy who was very successful and I asked him how his success was treated in his community. As a little background, his wife was a school teacher. He showed me a picture of him as a kid and his daddy who was a sharecropper in front of the meager home. He was proud and grateful from where he came from. He told me his family was almost shunned by many in his community because of his success. I found that very sad, but quite enlightening as to the core of the problems in the general Black community.
Conservatives would take the approach, that blacks shouldn't shun or blame for their history as slaves, they should embrace it's strength and be proud from which they came, rising above the hate and animosity, flip the finger to those wanting to continue the oppression.

I have a feeling that things are starting to change, that blacks as a whole are tired of being used as pawns, and there's only one direction as an option, Conservatism.
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Dori

#10
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The danger to America is not Barack Obama but the citizens capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.

Mountainshield

#11
Quote from: Dori on August 11, 2015, 07:38:00 AM
I understand what your saying, but I don't agree with people being "predisposed" to anything according to race.  Circumstances they are brought up in yes, as it's a chosen culture, not one that's in their DNA.

I'm not saying it's coded in their DNA to make certain decisions, but that genetic differences such as strength or intelligence which certain group of ethnicities have a statistical significant difference of will have effect on big enough sample such as say the population of a country or school.

This topic so taboo and so toxic because of accusation of racism and history of eugenics related to this topic. So it has become almost impossible to have a serious discussion on the topic without leftists yelling everything is racist and all differences is due to white oppression and the racists and nazis yelling everything is because blacks are inferior.

You are right that culture have more significance on the choices that a person makes, especially if you take into account obliteration of families culture, destruction of families themselves and centuries of slavery which was my main point. But it is shown that children of highly successful and educated parents have a higher chance of becoming successful and educated in a poor family than their biological children and vice versa of children from poor families being adopted into successful families. So genetics is a factor, it's just not a factor you as an individual can blame your own circumstance on, as we live (for the time being) in a capitalist free society with social mobility and everyone have the freedom to make it through hard work or study.

Quote from: kroz on August 11, 2015, 12:56:49 PM
I do believe in genetic predispositions. 

That does not rule out exceptions.  Nor is it racist.

The simple truth is that different ethnicities have always had certain strengths and weaknesses.  Mountainshield's example of the Jewish ethnicity is a good example.  They are "generally" predisposed to excel in certain areas and we all know this.  Why go to great lengths to ignore it or explain it away?

Africans are known for their extraordinary strength and endurance.   Am I wrong?

It is also true that recognizing ethnic strengths are a good way to maximize successes in life.

Of course there are always exceptions to the ethnic trends.... but genetics are extremely important to understand and acknowledge.  They are not inherently good or bad.  They just are!

It would probably be wise to adjust our methods of education within some ethnic concentrations..... because genetics affect the way in which we perceive information and process it to a certain extent.  That is where Charter Schools could be very effective.  Latinos have their own set of strengths that can be very beneficial if properly trained.

I think we do humanity a disservice by trying to treat everyone the same way.  Much talent is lost when painted over with a broad brush.

I disagree strongly about your point with education if I understand you correctly, as a Norwegian I'm strongly in favor of the Unity School which is the name of the Norwegian model. It emphasizes social cohesion and national unity no matter class, creed or ethnicity. There are some private schools but they need to adhere to the department of education. I know it sounds a lot like common core but it really isn't. Not to go too off topic but the problem with the Norwegian model is the lack of discipline and flexibility of the courses. We need to have same laws and public services for everyone, but I get your point about talent.

To tie it with the Norwegian Unity School, the problem is one size fits all system which only benefits the mediocre at best, and sometimes even just the worst as they bring everyone down. A system I had benefit of studying under in Australia was individual based classes. For example if you were grade A math student you studied in a group of other grade A math students in a tailored curriculum for higher proficient student, if a student was going through a bad time and had falling grades or just couldn't keep up with the curriculum he was placed in a grade B class with appropriate curriculum. If he improved he might get bumped up to A or if continue to decline bumped down to C and so on. This system ensured enough flexibility that nobody was left behind no matter how bad they were at the subject and that nobody got so good they got bored and dropped out like many "genius" kids do when all their homework is too easy. So if you are going through a bad time your whole academic future is not fucked as you can't catch up, the appropriate curriculums allows for flexibility.

What bothers me is that these disproportionate crime statistics and income statistics leads leftists to be able to make the argument that we need total government control to solve it and racist to claim that black people are criminals because of their ethnicity and people can't make any counter argument to any of these without being called a racist or leftist apologist.

And the only reason I mentioned genetics is because even when the culture is unified, history of slavery made irrelevant and institutional racism removed there will still be small genetic differences that will have effect on a large enough sample so there will never be 100% racial equality in anything, there will always be some difference but these differences is due to individual choices made from predispositions from certain genetic traits such as the Jews being more generally intelligent and not institutional racism or oppression.

If we never acknowledge this then we will always be striving for the impossible and like society is becoming today as we can't acknowledge or even talk about this problem we are becoming insane because we keep trying achieve 100% material/social equality through political correctness every time expecting a different result when the problem is the criminal culture about 20-30% of black people has embraced that has developed as a result of slavery and racism.

kroz

Quote from: Mountainshield on August 12, 2015, 09:30:24 AM
I disagree strongly about your point with education if I understand you correctly, as a Norwegian I'm strongly in favor of the Unity School which is the name of the Norwegian model. It emphasizes social cohesion and national unity no matter class, creed or ethnicity. There are some private schools but they need to adhere to the department of education. I know it sounds a lot like common core but it really isn't. Not to go too off topic but the problem with the Norwegian model is the lack of discipline and flexibility of the courses. We need to have same laws and public services for everyone, but I get your point about talent.

You probably misunderstand my position.  In the U.S. we have charter schools that specialize in certain academic strengths.  Some are science oriented, others mathematics, and some arts, etc.

In the past we have thrown all students together.... sink or swim.

I also think the British model offers another option we should consider.  At age 16 they divide the education between College bound students and vocational options.  Not all students are college material.  We should offer vocational education.

Parents should have more control over their child's educational path.  They know their own child's potential better than anyone.  Therefore we should provide vouchers that can be used at any school.  That includes private schools... which have a better track record of educating kids.

For decades U.S. public education has been far more interested in political indoctrination than academic excellence.  Class after class has been sacrificed to provide more class time for social agendas.  Inner city ghetto schools have been virtually ignored.  Parents have no recourse.  With vouchers they could break out of the public education penitentiary.

Right now we have precious few options out there for a majority of students.  Variations of talent distinct to ethnicities could be handled in such a way that race need not be the point.  If the shoe fits, wear it.  If the school fits your proclivity, go to it.

Dori

Quote from: Mountainshield on August 12, 2015, 09:30:24 AM
I'm not saying it's coded in their DNA to make certain decisions, but that genetic differences such as strength or intelligence which certain group of ethnicities have a statistical significant difference of will have effect on big enough sample such as say the population of a country or school.

The same can be said about white people.  There are those who make great athletes because of their inherited strength and body type.  Same for blacks.  They are not one body type either.  Same for their intellectual ability. 

I could list numerous successful blacks that had neither educated or successful parents. A recent co-worker of mine is quite smart.  She has Chinese heritage as does her two sisters.  One of her sisters is definitely not the brightest bulb on the tree, even though they have the same parentage and upbringing.  An interesting observation with these sisters too, is that they don't have the same body types.

You just can't broad brush or pigeonhole people based on race and say they are predisposed.  I have four kids and if you saw them in a group of people, there is no way you could tell they were related.  There is nothing similar about them in personality, size, coloring, body shape, or intellect, even though they have the same parentage.  Their success levels in school and careers are very diverse too.
The danger to America is not Barack Obama but the citizens capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.

Mountainshield

#14
Quote from: Dori on August 12, 2015, 11:00:06 AM
The same can be said about white people.  There are those who make great athletes because of their inherited strength and body type.  Same for blacks.  They are not one body type either.  Same for their intellectual ability. 

I could list numerous successful blacks that had neither educated or successful parents. A recent co-worker of mine is quite smart.  She has Chinese heritage as does her two sisters.  One of her sisters is definitely not the brightest bulb on the tree, even though they have the same parentage and upbringing.  An interesting observation with these sisters too, is that they don't have the same body types.

You just can't broad brush or pigeonhole people based on race and say they are predisposed.  I have four kids and if you saw them in a group of people, there is no way you could tell they were related.  There is nothing similar about them in personality, size, coloring, body shape, or intellect, even though they have the same parentage.  Their success levels in school and careers are very diverse too.

You still misunderstand me, in a sample of for example 100,000 individuals randomly chosen there will be if you take ethnicity and income into account there is a correlation between the two. The reasons for this is numerous and quite frankly uninteresting as long as there is a free market, but one of the reasons for blacks in the Americas is the history of slavery and the Cultural implications it has had. While at the same time the small enough factor of genetic heritage will always account for some difference racial income inequality when you do put a large enough group of people together.

Half of my family is black, I have one cousin who is a drug addict whereas his brother is a successful architect with his own company. They both come from the same black household and same upbringing. Of course there is a huge difference at the individual level, but you have to understand that liberals don't care about individuals, they only look at the statistics and the statistics says women earn less money than men therefore there is oppression against women and they look at black's and see that they are more likely to in prison than a white and conclude that there is oppression against black people or racists look at the crime and income statistics and conclude blacks are naturally more criminal or inferior.

There will never be complete equality for both cultural and historic reasons, but also genetic reasons. If we continue to strive for that type of equality we are ruining society in the process as we are striving for impossible. As conservatives we understand "material" equality doesn't really matter as the only equality that matter is under the law, everything else is ones own responsibility.

@kroz, ah I see, but I would still argue that as a society with different social groups and especially immigration we need indoctrination of national unity.

Edit: Btw I have had this conversation with many black people both in and outside my family and they all say without any problem that black people are different from white people even outside culture and skin color. It takes a liberal or a racist to conclude that because of this difference one of the races is worth more or less or should get different laws/services.