Author Topic: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson  (Read 8846 times)

Offline kramarat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5192
  • Gender: Male
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2013, 04:40:32 PM »
#1 -   Delivering the State of the Union address in person had nothign to do with Jefferson being "shy".  Most original states of the union were delivered in writing. It was not until the progressivist Woodrow Wilson that  State of the Union addresses really began to be habitually delivered in person to a Joint Session of Congress.

#2 - While acquiring territory, i.e. the Louisiana Purchase,  may not be  an authority given to the President directly, it is surely an understood power of Congress, and an effective choice of the Executive (particularly if it involves avoiding near-future war with other nations).  More territory does not necessarily mean bigger government.

#3 -   You cannot address Jefferson's "indulging" whithout addressing the fact that Jefferson was among a few of the founders who did not get the distinct difference between the American Revolution and the French Revolution.  The American Revolution did not "indulge" the whim of populist demand, particularly when it meant giving up the terms of a Civil Society. whereas the French Revolution did so, and this resulted in the hangings and decapitations, and the violent pendulum swings from one faction to another.  Jefferson's inability to make this distinction involving the importance of a foundation in Civil Society almost resulted in Jefferson being thrown in the Bastille, or getting him killed.   

Jefferson's mistake, and even blindness about the French Revolution is seen today in this administration's blindness about the Middle East and supporting the "Arab Spring" and more recent populist problems in Egypt.   Both in Revolutionary France, and today's Middle East, without first a foundation in a Civil Society, then the result of "democracy" can only be a populist elected tyranny and dictatorship, which is what Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood were in Egypt, and what the French Revolution was in France.

#4 - Your claim that Jefferson did not practice what he preached when it came to race and the question of slavery.  This statement comes from your obvious youth and naivete.     You recognize that Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, but then you proceed to ignore it, just as many contemporary progressives.

The Declaration declares all mean to be created equal.  It does not give the government, nor the Constitution itself the authority to dictate that equality, to change the terms of society. Had the Constitution done so, those Founders would have created the very sort of government which they fought against Britain and King George to reject, in which government can dictate the terms of Society. 

Any government that can unilaterally dictate the terms of society, or engage in "Social Engineering",  can also unilaterally dictate the enslavement of mankind.   

To no surprise, the very involvement of the government in dictating "rights" after the Civil War, has led to the government dictating that it has de facto ownership of each and every American citizen, via ObamaCare.  And this is something that is grossly unconstitutional, and deliberately nowhere in the federal government's legitimate authority.

Also Jefferson didn't simply  just back the extension of slavery into Missouri, not any more so than by the 3/5ths clause was only viewing blacks as 3/5th of a person!  The Missouri Compromise was in order to find a compromise in agreement for the nation to not  imbalance it in the legislature, and thereby promote rejection of the further increase of the country's size.  Jefferson was not promoting slavery by allowing it into Missouri.

5 - Jefferson did not simply just hate political parties, but believed that those parties should not replace the interest of the nation, and the principles of the Constitution, with their own ideology.

Another good post.
Just to add... A common misconception, is that slavery was invented in the US.
This is simply not so. America was founded during a time that slavery was common, particularly in Africa.

I think that many people think that the fact that Jefferson held slaves, meant that he woke up every morning and whipped them. I think not.

America was the first nation on the planet to abolish slavery. Period.
We owe nothing to anyone.

Trip

  • Guest
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2013, 04:41:18 PM »
Thou wouldst do better in studying George Mason.

LMAO! Oh dear God, I had nearly forgotten about our heated debate at the other place.  What is that guy's name you used to have in your signature? R. Carter  Pittman?

(* No, I really do NOT want to re-engage that argument, but I am still aghast how Pittman can make the claims he did and still be considered some sort of scholar)

This is one reason of many I regret  that site being not only shut down, but still there and only locked down in so far as us being unable to access those threads.



Trip

  • Guest
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2013, 04:45:32 PM »
Another good post.
Just to add... A common misconception, is that slavery was invented in the US.
This is simply not so. America was founded during a time that slavery was common, particularly in Africa.

I think that many people think that the fact that Jefferson held slaves, meant that he woke up every morning and whipped them. I think not.

America was the first nation on the planet to abolish slavery. Period.
We owe nothing to anyone.

Yeah, good point. I actually meant to include that, but lately I've been being bashed for the length of my posts so I didn't go into that aspect.

(I'm trying to find a plugin for EzPortal for one to do posts with pictures and talk bubbles, like comic books, to limit my post size) 



« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 04:49:51 PM by Trip »

Offline kramarat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5192
  • Gender: Male
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2013, 05:04:27 PM »
Yeah, good point. I actually meant to include that, but lately I've been being bashed for the length of my posts so I didn't go into that aspect.

(I'm trying to find a plugin for EzPortal for one to do posts with pictures and talk bubbles, like comic books, to limit my post size) 



I think your posts are just fine. I don't like comic books, nor the distraction of pictures. The facts work...at least for me.

I've got one issue, that isn't even a big deal. Supper's up, so I'll delve into it later. :wink:

Offline Shooterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2813
  • Gender: Male
  • Draft Jan Morgan for President
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2013, 08:23:49 PM »
LMAO! Oh dear God, I had nearly forgotten about our heated debate at the other place.  What is that guy's name you used to have in your signature? R. Carter  Pittman?

(* No, I really do NOT want to re-engage that argument, but I am still aghast how Pittman can make the claims he did and still be considered some sort of scholar)

This is one reason of many I regret  that site being not only shut down, but still there and only locked down in so far as us being unable to access those threads.

I will take the word of a long dead constitutional lawyer, Trip, over yours most any day.  That is just me, though.
There's no ticks like Polyticks-bloodsuckers all Davy Crockett 1786-1836

Yankees are like castor oil. Even a small dose is bad.
[IMG]

Trip

  • Guest
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2013, 08:59:37 PM »
I will take the word of a long dead constitutional lawyer, Trip, over yours most any day.  That is just me, though.

That long dead constitutional lawyer, that could not even recognize that Jefferson's rendition of Mason in the DOI was not declaring that all mean are created equal in fact, in actual outcome?

This is what you said elsewhere about Pittman, an actual quote "... believes the Declaration dictates that all men must be of actual equality in ability and intellect,"

Curiously, the Declaration of Independence says nothing of the sort, and Pittman should have known this himself, if he were any sort of scholar.

In response to my question, again elsewhere, of "how, you believe that Jefferson perverted Mason's views with what was written in the  DOI" this is what you answered:

  • Simply. Mason's idea was that all men are born equal under the law. That is as far as the case carries us. We are not created equal with ability, drive, determination, or even culturally. ( no where was that more evident than the issue of slavery. ) The DOI implies, and has come to mean that everyone is created equally- simply not so.

This is just your own problematic understanding of what the DOI actually indicates, and apparently Pittman's as well.

The contested passages of the DOI indicates:

  • " ... that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "

That "all men are created equal" in no way indicates that all persons are born with the same "ability, drive, determination" or even skill!   

That comma following "equal" actually defines that equality to being "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".   By this fact, Jefferson is saying the exact same thing that Mason was, except doing so in a far more streamlined and elegant fashion, without the verbosity of Mason.

NOTHING in that passage has to do with outcome, or de facto equality of ability! And it takes  a seriously troubled skill with the English language to even try to indicate that it does so!

But let us look again at  who R. Carter Pittman actually was.  He was a leftist Social-Engineering Progressive:

  • Robert Carter Pittman was appointed judge of the Police Court, and then served as Massachusetts state Representative  in 1858, and state senator from 1864-65 and 1868-1869, the last year of which he was President of the Senate. In 1869 he was appointed judge to the Massachusetts Superior Court

    While Pittman's term as Senator does not not indicate a party affiliation, Pittman's ideology shows him to be a devout Social Engineering Progressive, even presaging FDR's New Deal. Pittman was active in the temperance movement, and in 1873 he became president of the National Temperance Convention, and authored a book, "Alcohol and the State: A Discussion of the Problem of Law", a 400 page tome which even by today's standards would be overkill, arguing for the federal government to prohibit the consumption any alcohol, by federal dictate.

Pittman may as well have been an alcoholic himself, because his referenced writing about the DOI,  claiming that Jefferson declares all people to be equal in so far as ability and intellect, is one of the most intellectually vapid and factually flawed things I've ever read in my whole life.

NOWHERE does the DOI indicate that everyone is equal in so far as actual fact, but rather only equal in being "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights", and that IS the truth!

Not only is Pittman not any sort of "constitutional scholar", he is on the leading edge of the Corruption of the Constitution, demanding that the federal government has the authority to dictate the terms of society... in each and every State, something I've shown the federal government has NO constitutional authority to do, being prohibited from applying legislation to ANY State!




« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 09:03:46 PM by Trip »

Offline Shooterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2813
  • Gender: Male
  • Draft Jan Morgan for President
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2013, 09:43:07 PM »
Wrong Pittman, Trip. So sorry to burst your bubble. The Pittman I am referring to was from Georgia.

ROBERT CARTER PITTMAN was born in Calhoun, Gordon County, Georgia, October 8, 1898, one of twelve children of Robert McGrady and Lelia Thomas Pittman. He grew up in the Villanow, Walker County, Georgia area. He received his preparatory education from Reinhardt College, Emory University, and the University of Georgia. After receiving a LL.B. from Columbia University in 1927, Mr. Pittman began practicing law in Dalton, Whitfield County, Georgia, establishing a firm in which he was active until his death March 15, 1972.

Mr. Pittman was a member of the Board of Bar Examiners of the State of Georgia, the American and Georgia Bar Associations, the American Judicature Society, and the National Federation of Insurance Counsel. He was the author of many articles in the field of constitutional law and history, published in the American Bar Association Journal, the Virginia Law Review, the Georgia Bar Journal, the Alabama Lawyer, the Florida Law Journal, and other publications.

In the early 1940’s, he began collecting originals and copies of letters, manuscripts and holographs by, or relative to, George Mason of Virginia, author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, June 12, 1776 (three weeks before the Declaration of Independence), and the Virginia Constitution of the same year—from which our U.S. Constitution’s Bill of Rights was derived. Mr. Pittman was considered by many to be an authority on the Bill of Rights and constitutional law pertaining to it.

He was the first president elected by the Tufted Textile Manufacturers’ Association, now known as the Carpet and Rug Institute, served two one-year terms, and was instrumental in the organization, growth and development of the North Georgia Electric Membership Corporation. Mr. Pittman served on the boards of several local businesses and financial institutions.

A veteran of World War I, he was a former vice chairman of the Georgia Democratic Committee and was a member of the Georgia Commission of Constitutional Government.

He was a member of the Dalton Civitan Club, Dalton Elks Lodge and Dalton Masonic Lodge. In 1949 he was named to the University of Georgia Gridiron Society. In 1967 he was elected to the (Wall) of Fame of the Demosthenian Literary Society at the University of Georgia. He was a trustee of Camp Juliet Lowe for Girl Scouts at Cloudland Canyon.

Mr. Pittman married Charlotte Pruden, a native Daltonian, daughter of Lottie A. and Frank S. Pruden, January 24, 1935. Their children were Carol P. Tipton, born April 9, 1938, R. Carter Pittman, Jr., born January 8, 1940 and Jane P. Lieberman, born July 10, 1944, deceased March 17, 1977.
There's no ticks like Polyticks-bloodsuckers all Davy Crockett 1786-1836

Yankees are like castor oil. Even a small dose is bad.
[IMG]

Trip

  • Guest
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2013, 09:57:25 PM »
 And he's still a Democrat..

and still one who not grasp the simple phrasing that shows that the Declaration of Independence undeniably  does not indicate that the all persons are in any way equal in outcome, which is irrational.

This is the claim that the Left makes, insisting the the DOI and Constitution therefore support  equality of outcome.

Evidently you've gotten it in your head it must be true and accurate, and then have foolishly sought reasons to how this corruption might have occurred,  condemning the Declaration of Independence, and then found that condemnation support in the form of one Robert Carter Pittman.

Instead, what you should have done, is recognized that the corruption comes from those current Progressives themselves, and not actually the DOI.





Trip

  • Guest
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2013, 10:12:09 PM »
I could write a rather lengthy thesis on why Pittman's presentation, below is so extremely flawed.

Equality vs Liberty: The Eternal Conflict

However, just scrolling down to the section below the words "The Declaration is Not the Law" even only the first paragraph is a thesis unto itself:

  • The Declaration of Independence never became living law in America, and no provision of the Federal Constitution or Bill of Rights can be traced to it and, as this essay will demonstrate, its influence on state constitutions and bills of rights has been insignificant. It was written to serve the temporary purposes of a sanguinary conflict. It was and perhaps will ever be history's most effective piece of propaganda, but it neither grants nor protects human rights.

Contrary to Pittman's indication, the DOI is every bit as much the living law in America, the Organic Law, as is the Constitution itself.

Furthermore,  the entirety of the Constitution is structured on the recognitions in the DOI, not to mention the BIll of Rights itself.

Pittman's problem, as yours,  is he fails to realize that the true issue here is one that "equality" does not in any way involve equality in outcome, recognition and reward. 

While Pittman accurately criticizes the Civil Rights movement, he should have focused his criticism on the movement's  corrupt demand for equal outcome,  while allowing the federal government to engage in the policing of rights, which is was deliberately prohibited, and while denying individuals their very own rights, such as came about  with forced busing.

No, instead of doing what is logically evident from the facts before him,  Pittman instead engages in an utterly fallacious condemnation of the DOI and Jefferson, thereby forcing his thesis to be devoid of any true academic scholarship, as well as denying himself ability to reference actual historical and constitutional fact by his contrived argument.



« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 10:16:53 PM by Trip »

Offline Shooterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2813
  • Gender: Male
  • Draft Jan Morgan for President
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2013, 05:37:54 AM »
And he's still a Democrat..

and still one who not grasp the simple phrasing that shows that the Declaration of Independence undeniably  does not indicate that the all persons are in any way equal in outcome, which is irrational.

This is the claim that the Left makes, insisting the the DOI and Constitution therefore support  equality of outcome.

Evidently you've gotten it in your head it must be true and accurate, and then have foolishly sought reasons to how this corruption might have occurred,  condemning the Declaration of Independence, and then found that condemnation support in the form of one Robert Carter Pittman.

Instead, what you should have done, is recognized that the corruption comes from those current Progressives themselves, and not actually the DOI.

No where did R Carter Pittman advocate that men, beyond the protection of the law, were equal in outcome. If that is what you got from his thesis, then per chance that is what you wished to get from his thesis.  He advocated that equality and freedom are the antithesis of each other, which is basically what most of the Founders believed.

Yes, he was a Democrat, an honest one, of the old school that still existed in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. I was wondering exactly how long before you made that straw man argument.
There's no ticks like Polyticks-bloodsuckers all Davy Crockett 1786-1836

Yankees are like castor oil. Even a small dose is bad.
[IMG]

Offline Shooterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2813
  • Gender: Male
  • Draft Jan Morgan for President
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2013, 06:11:53 AM »
In reality, the Bill of Rights, not ratified until 1791, was predicated upon the Viirginia Declaration of Rights, written and published in June of 1776, and along with the charges from Judge William Henry Drayton of South Carolina, formed the basis for much of the DOI. He is quite correct, as well, and you are quite incorrect, that though some of the principles found within the DOI were later codified into law, the DOI itself was not.

I would suggest to the rest of the fora, yourself included, though I hold out little promise you will do so, the following read;

The Declaration of Independence-Its Antecedents and Authors

http://rcarterpittman.org/essays/documents/Declaration_of_Independence.html

I am woefully inadequate to defend whom I consider, ( admittedly, this is my opinion only, and expect no one else to necessarily agree ) one of the best jurors of his age, against what seems at times, another Robby from Down Under.

One can't help but notice almost from the first, this, upon going to the website of R Carter Pittman's writings;

Quote
Honorable Carter Pittman is one of the learned men of the legal profession. If you do not like him, remember he is an opponent worthy of your best steel.

His philosophy like that of George Mason is “Rule by consent of the governed.”

T. Whitfield Davidson
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
DALLAS, TEXAS
May 15, 1962

Once again, Trip, I leave you to your self reverence and glorification. My humble endeavor here was not so directed at your great intellect, but at the edification of the lessor men and ladies here.

Have a good day, and a great suppa as another Democrat, Ol' Jack Brooks, used to say. ( make of that what you will )
There's no ticks like Polyticks-bloodsuckers all Davy Crockett 1786-1836

Yankees are like castor oil. Even a small dose is bad.
[IMG]

Trip

  • Guest
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2013, 08:17:18 AM »
No where did R Carter Pittman advocate that men, beyond the protection of the law, were equal in outcome. If that is what you got from his thesis, then per chance that is what you wished to get from his thesis.  He advocated that equality and freedom are the antithesis of each other, which is basically what most of the Founders believed.

Yes, he was a Democrat, an honest one, of the old school that still existed in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. I was wondering exactly how long before you made that straw man argument.

If that is what you got from my damn post, then you need to go and read it again, particularly since this isn't the first time we've had this discussion about Pittman.

Nowhere do I indicate that Pittman said that people were equal in outcome; what I indicated, and Pittman indicated, is that he felt that is what Jefferson indicated in the Declaration of Independence.

Overall, as I pointed out,  the DOI's reference to "equality" (created equal) is NOT any sort of reference to equal outcome, but rather equality under the law (rights), just the exact same thing as Mason indicated!

NOWHERE does Jefferson, or the DOI indicate any sort of equality of outcome, which would indeed be in conflict with freedom, but fortunately the whole issue is a gross failing of Pittman's scholarship!


Trip

  • Guest
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2013, 08:31:44 AM »
In reality, the Bill of Rights, not ratified until 1791, was predicated upon the Viirginia Declaration of Rights, written and published in June of 1776, and along with the charges from Judge William Henry Drayton of South Carolina, formed the basis for much of the DOI. He is quite correct, as well, and you are quite incorrect, that though some of the principles found within the DOI were later codified into law, the DOI itself was not.

Pittman didn't just say the DOI is not law (which might have been acceptable on its own,  but he actually said, as I previously quoted, "The Declaration of Independence never became living law in America, and no provision of the Federal Constitution or Bill of Rights can be traced to it..."

This is grossly, thoroughly and demonstrably wrong on so many levels.   

The DOI is every bit as much the "Organic Law" and founding principle of these United States,  and causal in the Bill of Rights, and the very structure of the Constitution itself.  In point of fact, the DOI is listed in the United States Code as the "Organic Law" of the United States, along with the Articles of Confederation, the Northwest Ordinance, and the U.S. Constitution itself! For those unfamiliar, the "organic law" of a country is that which is recognized to be the founding principle of that country. 

However Pittman is maintaining just the opposite!

As I've pointed out previously on this forum, the Founders of this country repeatedly indicated the importance of the DOI this nation's founding principle, by dating documents and speeches to the Declaration of Independence itself!  Even Lincoln's famous "Four Score and Seven", from the Gettysburg Address,  is a reference back to that Declaration of Independence!


Pittman is not just "a little wrong" here, he's grossly wrong! And wrong even on sometime as simple, and clearly evident, that the DOI was providing some guarantee of equal outcome!

It should be obvious, even to the linguistically challenged, that "created equal" has nothing whatsoever to do with being "maintained equal",  or even a statement of equality of abilities, even if they ignore the entire clause following the comma, which clarifies that equality as being applicable to "rights" under the law. 

Once we're created, all bets (and equality) are off, and therein lies the Freedom.

This is not just "Trip" indicating this; this is not just my own unsupported opinion.  This is America's founders, and Presidents predominantly indicating this over the first half of America's history!

What you and Pittman are indicating is  nothing short of a gross corruption of this country, the Constitution, and our history.



« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 08:42:50 AM by Trip »

Offline Shooterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2813
  • Gender: Male
  • Draft Jan Morgan for President
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2013, 08:52:30 AM »
Nice try, Trip. However, much to your dismay, I'm sure, the DOI, is not Law. The fact some principles as laid out within the DOI became law, does not make the DOI binding on any living soul as law.

Quote
Article VI

All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

The DOI is not considered to be the Law of The Land. Surely, if it had been considered so by the Founders, is it not reasonable to believe they would have stated so with the Constitution itself?

I see no mention of the DOI as being considered the Law of The Land. Wishing it so does not make it so.
There's no ticks like Polyticks-bloodsuckers all Davy Crockett 1786-1836

Yankees are like castor oil. Even a small dose is bad.
[IMG]

Offline Shooterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2813
  • Gender: Male
  • Draft Jan Morgan for President
Re: Shocking Facts about Thomas Jefferson
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 08:55:18 AM »
I am well aware you do not like Pittman, as your opinion is much greater than his. I am also aware Morris Dees and the SPLC do not like him, ( or his memory ) as well.
There's no ticks like Polyticks-bloodsuckers all Davy Crockett 1786-1836

Yankees are like castor oil. Even a small dose is bad.
[IMG]

 

Powered by EzPortal