Quote from: mrgrtt123 on November 13, 2019, 04:14:00 PM
Anyone should never be forced to eat veggies. They should try to think of new advocacy instead of turning children into vegan.

My kids ate what was on the plate, which came out of the garden or the pasture or went without, momma taught me that trick.

Quote from: mrgrtt123 on November 13, 2019, 04:14:00 PM
Anyone should never be forced to eat veggies. They should try to think of new advocacy instead of turning children into vegan.

This is where I disagree. It should be up to the individual whether or not they make that decision. My sister has been a vegan for years, and I have been able to grow more and more educated on the matter, finding that there are some healthy and actually very good options for vegans.

Quote from: cynical1 on November 09, 2019, 01:55:56 PM
I have studied nutrition.

vegans never live long. I have studied many cases of people who were long-term vegans and they do not live long. The people who live longest, over 100, are meat eaters and also drink wine or some kind of alcohol regularly (drinking 2 excess also shortens life).

Vegans who push this kind of diet on their children have been convicted of child abuse when the child(ren) fail to thrive..

I don't know where you have this evidence that vegans do not live long, but I would certainly love to see it if you do have it. Also, by your logic, my mother should be in jail for supporting my sisters decision to become a vegan, so I would also love to see evidence of those arrests as well.

When I was about 6, I was eating my moms hamburger, and I have to tell you, her cooking truly sucked back then.
I didn't know burgers tasted good till we went to A&W years later. Anyway, this burger, like all her other burgers was burned on the outside and bloody on the inside, unappetizing as Hell.
I said I'm done eating this, I hate meat!!!
I refused to eat anymore of that crap. Well, the next night, more meat, only chicken, dry and tough as usual, so I didn't eat it. This went on all week, but I didn't have to eat the meat, problem was, I was constantly hungry.
I cured my self over the idea of being a vegan, though moms cooking finally improved years later, I kind of became a fan of meatloaf and other dishes that included meat.

I learned early on, man needs meat to survive, and that most vegans have mental issues. Is their a relation because they don't eat meat, or is it they became vegans because they had mental issues in the first place?

Quote from: Solar on November 14, 2019, 06:08:47 AM
When I was about 6, I was eating my moms hamburger, and I have to tell you, her cooking truly sucked back then.
I didn't know burgers tasted good till we went to A&W years later. Anyway, this burger, like all her other burgers was burned on the outside and bloody on the inside, unappetizing as Hell.
I said I'm done eating this, I hate meat!!!
I refused to eat anymore of that crap. Well, the next night, more meat, only chicken, dry and tough as usual, so I didn't eat it. This went on all week, but I didn't have to eat the meat, problem was, I was constantly hungry.
I cured my self over the idea of being a vegan, though moms cooking finally improved years later, I kind of became a fan of meatloaf and other dishes that included meat.

I learned early on, man needs meat to survive, and that most vegans have mental issues. Is their a relation because they don't eat meat, or is it they became vegans because they had mental issues in the first place?

This conflation of veganism to mental illness does not sit well with me. I have yet to see any studies of substances that prove veganism is related to mental illness. In knowing plenty of people who choose to go vegan for both health and dietary reasons, I simply do not think this is an appropriate statement to be making.

Quote from: ConservativeInCT on November 14, 2019, 06:13:19 AM
This conflation of veganism to mental illness does not sit well with me. I have yet to see any studies of substances that prove veganism is related to mental illness. In knowing plenty of people who choose to go vegan for both health and dietary reasons, I simply do not think this is an appropriate statement to be making.

Think about it for a moment. Why would someone refuse to eat meat? Man exists because of meat, so if one claims moral issues, they have a personal problem.
Sure, there are certain species we don't eat because of culture, like dogs and cats etc, but to refuse all meat means one is grossed out by the fact it was a living being at one time. That's a developed mental issue that was never confronted when it should have been.
All my personal experience in life with vegans proved to me that a strict vegetable diet is unhealthy, even a doctor i had that was vegan said he wasn't healthy, that he should eat meat, but couldn't bring himself to do it. He admitted he wasn't always unhealthy, but his religion didn't allow him to eat meat so he had given it up years earlier.

it's one thing to be a vegetarian, but vegan is not normal on any level.

Quote from: Solar on November 14, 2019, 06:58:04 AM
Think about it for a moment. Why would someone refuse to eat meat? Man exists because of meat, so if one claims moral issues, they have a personal problem.
Sure, there are certain species we don't eat because of culture, like dogs and cats etc, but to refuse all meat means one is grossed out by the fact it was a living being at one time. That's a developed mental issue that was never confronted when it should have been.
All my personal experience in life with vegans proved to me that a strict vegetable diet is unhealthy, even a doctor i had that was vegan said he wasn't healthy, that he should eat meat, but couldn't bring himself to do it. He admitted he wasn't always unhealthy, but his religion didn't allow him to eat meat so he had given it up years earlier.

it's one thing to be a vegetarian, but vegan is not normal on any level.

I struggle to understand how this is related to mental illness though. I will admit my bias out front, both my sister and best friend are vegan. Both of them chose to go vegan not because of a fear of eating something that was once living, but because of it health benefits it brings to them. Sure, some people do choose not to eat meat because of what you listed above, and that can and should be examined through the appropriate lenses.

In modern society, veganism is much more accepted as a way of life, and through the advancement of technology in both food and agriculture, vegans are able to achieve their counts for daily nutritional value through other food sources. My sister has dedicated a lot of time to building vegan recopies and sharing them with others who share vegan interests.

YEs, there are radicals, and I am sure that there are vegans who suffer from mental illnesses. But those are a minute percent. To slap the stigma that comes with the term mental illness on it, quite honestly pisses me off. But hey, we can agree to disagree on this one.

Quote from: ConservativeInCT on November 14, 2019, 07:06:53 AM
I struggle to understand how this is related to mental illness though. I will admit my bias out front, both my sister and best friend are vegan. Both of them chose to go vegan not because of a fear of eating something that was once living, but because of it health benefits it brings to them. Sure, some people do choose not to eat meat because of what you listed above, and that can and should be examined through the appropriate lenses.

In modern society, veganism is much more accepted as a way of life, and through the advancement of technology in both food and agriculture, vegans are able to achieve their counts for daily nutritional value through other food sources. My sister has dedicated a lot of time to building vegan recopies and sharing them with others who share vegan interests.

YEs, there are radicals, and I am sure that there are vegans who suffer from mental illnesses. But those are a minute percent. To slap the stigma that comes with the term mental illness on it, quite honestly pisses me off. But hey, we can agree to disagree on this one.

Vegan, health benefits? So they bought the leftist lie.

Quote from: Solar on November 14, 2019, 07:33:36 AM
Vegan, health benefits? So they bought the leftist lie.

I don't think the issue has anything to do with right or left. The way I see it, its a personal life choice to be made. Not everyone stays a vegan forever, some do it for a short period, others make the decision to go vegan for the rest of their lives. Not to mention, there are alterations and variations of veganism.

Quote from: ConservativeInCT on November 14, 2019, 07:06:53 AM
I struggle to understand how this is related to mental illness though. I will admit my bias out front, both my sister and best friend are vegan. Both of them chose to go vegan not because of a fear of eating something that was once living, but because of it health benefits it brings to them. Sure, some people do choose not to eat meat because of what you listed above, and that can and should be examined through the appropriate lenses.

In modern society, veganism is much more accepted as a way of life, and through the advancement of technology in both food and agriculture, vegans are able to achieve their counts for daily nutritional value through other food sources. My sister has dedicated a lot of time to building vegan recopies and sharing them with others who share vegan interests.

YEs, there are radicals, and I am sure that there are vegans who suffer from mental illnesses. But those are a minute percent. To slap the stigma that comes with the term mental illness on it, quite honestly pisses me off. But hey, we can agree to disagree on this one.

I am an amateur Cook.  Very Good Cook, according too those who are charged with eating my Creations.  Being such, and of course listening to the Gooberment, I tried to eat Low Fat to lose weight, and ended up gaining.  So, I became determined to learn about Nutrition.  At the Time, I weighed 420.  I lost to 308, and went back to the old Way of Eating(WOE), and blew back up to 368.  Last Christmas I put a new plan to work.  For the Second Time, I went on a Ketogenic WOE.  My Sugar was borderline at 125, BP stayed 170/110 most of the time, even with Meds, my Cholesterol was over 200, and I had lymphedema, and was having warning Strokes(TIAs) I wasn't aware of.  Add COPD to all that, and I had one foot in the grave.
A couple of weeks into the diet, I fell twice one morning.  Checked my BP and I was 69/45.  Called the Doctor, and she told me to discontinue my BP Meds.  It scared her enough to order bloodwork, and I told he I had a Life Scan scheduled.  I went, and here are the results.  I weigh 268.
BP is Normal, with only a half dose of Lisonopril 20/25. 
My Cholesterol is now 108. HDL is low at 33, but with 108 total, Mr Doctor told me not to worry about the low HDL.  LDL Is 49, and Triglycerides are 124.  In my mid 60s, I'd say that's pretty good.  I do not believe my Doctor has seen a Senior Citizen with 108 TC.  Especially not one who cooks BBQ on a weekly basis.
Sugar is 91.  No more COPD.  No More Lymphedema, Feeling terrific, and my brain is once again healthy. Blood Flow to my feet, is the same rate as blood flow to my hands, and the Plaque in my arteries is virtually non existent. 
So, what did I learn that gave me back my health. The Government, as usual, has it completely upside down.  YOUR BODY, INCLUDING YOUR BRAIN, NEEDS SATURATED FAT.  Butter, Lard, Bacon fat, Avocado Oil, Coconut Oil, and Olive Oil are the only oils I'll use, and have been for over a year.  I eat 80% of my calories from Fat.  15% from Protein, and 5% from Carbohydrates.  Lost 100 lbs in 10 months, and 152 overall.  Fat does no make you fat.  Simple sugars and fast carbs make you fat.  It is all about Glycemic Response.  Vegans have a difficulty ingesting that much fat, so to be a healthy vegan, you must use supplements.  Sure, if you are diligent, you can be a healthy vegan, but it has been proven that saturated fats are necessary to stave off Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and other forms of Dementia.  Low fat is not healthy.
about 20-30 more, and I'll begin a Maintenance schedule, where I get more carbs, in Complex form, a few grains and an occasional starch.  Flour and Sugar will excluded from my diet, forever.
Most vegans I knew were fat, paste white and unhealthy.

Quote from: tiny1 on November 14, 2019, 08:06:07 AM
I am an amateur Cook.  Very Good Cook, according too those who are charged with eating my Creations.  Being such, and of course listening to the Gooberment, I tried to eat Low Fat to lose weight, and ended up gaining.  So, I became determined to learn about Nutrition.  At the Time, I weighed 420.  I lost to 308, and went back to the old Way of Eating(WOE), and blew back up to 368.  Last Christmas I put a new plan to work.  For the Second Time, I went on a Ketogenic WOE.  My Sugar was borderline at 125, BP stayed 170/110 most of the time, even with Meds, my Cholesterol was over 200, and I had lymphedema, and was having warning Strokes(TIAs) I wasn't aware of.  Add COPD to all that, and I had one foot in the grave.
A couple of weeks into the diet, I fell twice one morning.  Checked my BP and I was 69/45.  Called the Doctor, and she told me to discontinue my BP Meds.  It scared her enough to order bloodwork, and I told he I had a Life Scan scheduled.  I went, and here are the results.  I weigh 268.
BP is Normal, with only a half dose of Lisonopril 20/25. 
My Cholesterol is now 108. HDL is low at 33, but with 108 total, Mr Doctor told me not to worry about the low HDL.  LDL Is 49, and Triglycerides are 124.  In my mid 60s, I'd say that's pretty good.  I do not believe my Doctor has seen a Senior Citizen with 108 TC.  Especially not one who cooks BBQ on a weekly basis.
Sugar is 91.  No more COPD.  No More Lymphedema, Feeling terrific, and my brain is once again healthy. Blood Flow to my feet, is the same rate as blood flow to my hands, and the Plaque in my arteries is virtually non existent. 
So, what did I learn that gave me back my health. The Government, as usual, has it completely upside down.  YOUR BODY, INCLUDING YOUR BRAIN, NEEDS SATURATED FAT.  Butter, Lard, Bacon fat, Avocado Oil, Coconut Oil, and Olive Oil are the only oils I'll use, and have been for over a year.  I eat 80% of my calories from Fat.  15% from Protein, and 5% from Carbohydrates.  Lost 100 lbs in 10 months, and 152 overall.  Fat does no make you fat.  Simple sugars and fast carbs make you fat.  It is all about Glycemic Response.  Vegans have a difficulty ingesting that much fat, so to be a healthy vegan, you must use supplements.  Sure, if you are diligent, you can be a healthy vegan, but it has been proven that saturated fats are necessary to stave off Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and other forms of Dementia.  Low fat is not healthy.
about 20-30 more, and I'll begin a Maintenance schedule, where I get more carbs, in Complex form, a few grains and an occasional starch.  Flour and Sugar will excluded from my diet, forever.
Most vegans I knew were fat, paste white and unhealthy.

First off, I am glad that you are in good heath, and congratulations on the weight loss. As someone who works actively to keep my own weight down, I know it is not an easy task to be had, and I commend you for your work and dedication to it, and I wish you nothing but the best in your future health and weight management.

As for your points on saturated fat as it relates to veganism, yes it is difficult for some vegans to achieve their needed allotment of some nutrients. In reading up more on this article, I can safely say now that there are plenty of replacements to receive your daily allotment of saturated fats from vegan options. Coconut oils and some nuts contain levels of saturated fats. My sister, who cooks vegan meals, gets most of her saturated fats from coconut oil and palm butter.

My sister is a healthy weight and height for her age, and holds and average BMI with no medial history. So while it may be difficult to obtain it, it is not impossible. these solutions will also be solved with advancements in development of new vegan food options.

Quote from: ConservativeInCT on November 14, 2019, 07:37:56 AM
I don't think the issue has anything to do with right or left. The way I see it, its a personal life choice to be made. Not everyone stays a vegan forever, some do it for a short period, others make the decision to go vegan for the rest of their lives. Not to mention, there are alterations and variations of veganism.

Yes, there is a solid connection. Think back to when the left attacked the beef industry.


Animal liberation and Marxism ... Can I ask you about veganism? It has been pointed out that meat just happens to be the cheapest, most readily available form of nutrition for working class people. So veganism is a luxury lifestyle in terms of both money and time. How essential is the prefigurative aspect to you?

weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/994/animal-liberation-and-marxism

Leo Tolstoy (1828–1910) was a vegetarian, pacifist and Christian anarchist. In On Civil Disobedience he wrote: "A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral." Veganism and anarchism

Quote from: Solar on November 14, 2019, 09:00:59 AM
Yes, there is a solid connection. Think back to when the left attacked the beef industry.


Animal liberation and Marxism ... Can I ask you about veganism? It has been pointed out that meat just happens to be the cheapest, most readily available form of nutrition for working class people. So veganism is a luxury lifestyle in terms of both money and time. How essential is the prefigurative aspect to you?

weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/994/animal-liberation-and-marxism

Leo Tolstoy (1828–1910) was a vegetarian, pacifist and Christian anarchist. In On Civil Disobedience he wrote: "A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral." Veganism and anarchism

These are all good points. People do practice veganism on the basis of their politics, but that is not every case. You know I hate Marxists, I agree with you on 99 percent of what is spoke of on this forum. However, I can not help but notice that you seem to be casting a very wide net over all vegans, and equating them to a few percentage of those who are vegans and who promote radial vegan ideas on the basis of political belief. My only point is that not every vegan behaves in (what O believe to be) a stereotype you are feeding into.

I do not think that simply because Tolstoy made a comment about it, it is a vessel of the left and Marxism.

Quote from: ConservativeInCT on November 14, 2019, 09:27:11 AM
These are all good points. People do practice veganism on the basis of their politics, but that is not every case. You know I hate Marxists, I agree with you on 99 percent of what is spoke of on this forum. However, I can not help but notice that you seem to be casting a very wide net over all vegans, and equating them to a few percentage of those who are vegans and who promote radial vegan ideas on the basis of political belief. My only point is that not every vegan behaves in (what O believe to be) a stereotype you are feeding into.

I do not think that simply because Tolstoy made a comment about it, it is a vessel of the left and Marxism.

Of course not all vegans are leftists, but I'm willing to bet 90% or better, vote Dim. So the percentages back my claim of the connection.

Quote from: Solar on November 14, 2019, 09:36:30 AM
Of course not all vegans are leftists, but I'm willing to bet 90% or better, vote Dim. So the percentages back my claim of the connection.

I can agree with ninety percent.

Whenever i hear comments on eating vegetarian, I think of a comment Henry David Thoreau made, quoted below. Personally I love all American hot dogs and burgers too much to be vegetarian but to each his own. The children can eat meat at home if their parents feel they need it. Imagine how well our small farmers would do if America did more local produce and ate at Vegetarian MacDonald's. lol  We are a fat nation. Why. Everyone I know wants to diet and it is the favorite new year resolution everywhere.

"One farmer says to me, 'You cannot live on vegetable food solely, for it furnishes nothing to make bones with;' and so he religiously devotes a part of his day to supplying his system with the raw material of bones; walking all the while he talks behind his oxen, which, with vegetable-made bones, jerk him and his lumbering plow along in spite of every obstacle."  Henry David Thoreau, Walden: Or, Life in the Woods