Author Topic: WOW 14000 DOW  (Read 4623 times)

Offline TowardLiberty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2013, 02:33:18 PM »
It's a great concept, but a society that is based on volunteer associations will fail. There will always be people, (lots of them), that will volunteer to take your shit, rather than earning their own.

Well, history shows this to be wrong.

Many societies have thrived with voluntary forms of law enforcement.

One exists today.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Online Solar

  • '
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34451
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2013, 02:50:37 PM »
I honestly don't believe any of that makes any sense.

The big divide between theory and fact is oversold.
Seriously? Theory: a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena.
I know I don't need to explain fact.
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline TowardLiberty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2013, 02:53:55 PM »
Seriously? Theory: a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena.
I know I don't need to explain fact.

I am afraid the matter is a bit more complex, than that.

In order to have facts, we have to take measurements of things in reality.

In order to measure some part of reality, we have to ignore other parts.

So the mere compilation of facts presumes and requires theory- if only to know which parts of reality are relevant to the questions we are asking.

Separating the two, with some strict divide, is an illusion.

There are differences between the two, no doubt.

But we cannot ever truly untangle fact from theory.

Though, this sort of complex epistemological insight is nothing you will find with a dictionary definition of a word, or in crib notes.

In many ways, Solar, we are living in different realities, seeing different things, and meaning different things by the words we use.

Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Online Solar

  • '
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34451
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2013, 03:01:29 PM »
I am afraid the matter is a bit more complex, than that.

In order to have facts, we have to take measurements of things in reality.

In order to measure some part of reality, we have to ignore other parts.

So the mere compilation of facts presumes and requires Deduction- if only to know which parts of reality are relevant to the questions we are asking.

Separating the two, with some strict divide, is an illusion.

There are differences between the two, no doubt.

But we cannot ever truly untangle fact from theory.

Though, this sort of complex epistemological insight is nothing you will find with a dictionary definition of a word, or in crib notes.

In many ways, Solar, we are living in different realities, seeing different things, and meaning different things by the words we use.
One deduces using facts to create an complete picture, theorizing is merely guessing an outcome, actual facts fill in the blanks.
If one does not have all the facts, he can only theorize the outcome.

Like I said, I rely on facts, not conjecture.
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline TowardLiberty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2013, 03:06:44 PM »
One deduces using facts to create an complete picture, theorizing is merely guessing an outcome, actual facts fill in the blanks.
If one does not have all the facts, he can only theorize the outcome.

Like I said, I rely on facts, not conjecture.

OK, Solar.

You are right.

I'll just shut up now.

You obviously know much more about this whole theory/epistemology thing than I do.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 03:10:23 PM by TowardLiberty »
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Online Solar

  • '
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34451
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2013, 03:19:25 PM »
OK, Solar.

You are right.

I'll just shut up now.

You obviously know much more about this whole theory/epistemology thing than I do.
Whatever...
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline TowardLiberty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2013, 06:22:55 PM »
Whatever...

Well, what other choice do I have?

It is not like you are hearing a word I am saying.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Online Solar

  • '
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34451
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2013, 08:14:01 PM »
Well, what other choice do I have?

It is not like you are hearing a word I am saying.
Hello!!!! It goes both ways.

I live in a world where people deal in factual evidence, not theory, conspiracy, or fantasy, it is either factually true, or it's conjecture, you can't have both and still have it factual.
What you do get is a story filled in with opinion, nothing else.

It's the same reason you believe your system of non Govt is possible, you live under the illusion that everything you've read on the topic is fact, when most of what I've read is more hope and opinion than reality.
Wanting something to be true, is not the same as having all the facts, facts like the human equation, people are honest, to a point.
Theory will not make it work, it really is that simple.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 08:19:48 PM by Solar »
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline TowardLiberty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2013, 06:37:30 AM »
Hello!!!! It goes both ways.

Nah- I hear what your saying.

I just think it is stupid.

On the other hand, my words are flying right over your head.

Quote

I live in a world where people deal in factual evidence, not theory, conspiracy, or fantasy, it is either factually true, or it's conjecture, you can't have both and still have it factual.
What you do get is a story filled in with opinion, nothing else.

It's the same reason you believe your system of non Govt is possible, you live under the illusion that everything you've read on the topic is fact, when most of what I've read is more hope and opinion than reality.
Wanting something to be true, is not the same as having all the facts, facts like the human equation, people are honest, to a point.
Theory will not make it work, it really is that simple.

Obviously, you know my position better than me.

So I might as well just shut up.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Offline TowardLiberty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2013, 06:46:14 AM »
But that is not my style, to shut up.

The idea that facts can be had without theory is for fools.

For fools.

Facts are theory laden.

Their mere collection, observation and selection requires a theory.

But this discussion on epistemology is not something you will learn about on CNN, or reading "cribs notes."

This is the kind of stuff, much like economics, physics, philosophy and chemistry, that actually requires some study and sacrifice, to understand.

The writing is on the wall.

This is the wrong place to bring up stuff like this.

Lesson learned. No prob.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Offline Vern

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 105
it was party time where I was
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2013, 06:59:36 AM »
geez, I go away one weekend and you guys are talking about vietnam.

anyhoo, toward I really enjoyed your graphs.  Usually your posts are just attempts to ‘shave’ the rough edges off the truth.   But for you  to A make a claim that the stock market is disconnected from the economy and B think you’ve in any way proven it with your graphs is far fetched at best.    You didn’t attempt to prove that the market is inflated beyond what one would expect based on the future worth of corp profits.  A case could be made for that.  You have the made the incredible statement that its completely disconnected from the economy. 

And the best part is it has nothing to do with my post.  4 years ago, cons predicted the ‘end of the world’. Not only did it not happen but we had one of the greatest bull runs in history.  And  if Obama was a republican, cons would be singing the praises of his economy with the DOW as proof. 

kind of reminds of 93. You couldnt have a conversation with a con without them saying "double dip" .  Literally they walked around like zombies just saying 'double dip" . They were told that Clintons tax increases on the top 20% would certainly cause a double dip.  Long story short, once again the exact opposite of what cons 'predict' happened. 

Online Solar

  • '
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34451
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2013, 08:04:31 AM »
But that is not my style, to shut up.

The idea that facts can be had without theory is for fools.

For fools.

Facts are theory laden.

Their mere collection, observation and selection requires a theory.

But this discussion on epistemology is not something you will learn about on CNN, or reading "cribs notes."

This is the kind of stuff, much like economics, physics, philosophy and chemistry, that actually requires some study and sacrifice, to understand.

The writing is on the wall.

This is the wrong place to bring up stuff like this.

Lesson learned. No prob.
Time lines written by the participants of an historical event are facts, when historians try and theorize, they are doing what is referred to as filling in the blanks, this is opinion of the author.
Why is it so hard for you to understand everyone has an opinion unique to themselves, these are not facts, they are Theories/Opinions!

Yes, the do make it easier for the laymen when looking for context, but science doesn't make conclusion based on theory, it bases it on solid facts.
It's why AGW is held in such great contempt by the right, it's writing law based in theory. Are you saying leftist are right in following the formula you seem to hold so dear?
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline The Boo Man...

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11270
  • Gender: Male
  • I know you don't have a car but what color is it?
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2013, 08:03:55 PM »
Big surprise when the Fed continues propping up the economy :rolleyes:


Offline TowardLiberty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
  • Gender: Male
Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2013, 07:04:38 AM »
Time lines written by the participants of an historical event are facts, when historians try and theorize, they are doing what is referred to as filling in the blanks, this is opinion of the author.

And the selection of which facts are relevant to measure, by the participants, is rooted in theory.

I don't know why this is so hard for you understand.

Quote
Why is it so hard for you to understand everyone has an opinion unique to themselves, these are not facts, they are Theories/Opinions!

That is not hard to understand.

Quote

Yes, the do make it easier for the laymen when looking for context, but science doesn't make conclusion based on theory, it bases it on solid facts.

All science is based on theory.

There is no fact without theory, and there is no conclusion about the relationship between facts without theory.

Quote
It's why AGW is held in such great contempt by the right, it's writing law based in theory. Are you saying leftist are right in following the formula you seem to hold so dear?

AGW is held in contempt because it is a rouse for central planning.

All economics is nothing but theoretical statements of universal laws governing choice and human action.

Should we toss out economics because it is rooted in theory?
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Offline TowardLiberty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
  • Gender: Male
Re: it was party time where I was
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2013, 07:10:39 AM »

anyhoo, toward I really enjoyed your graphs.

Thanks!

Quote

 Usually your posts are just attempts to ‘shave’ the rough edges off the truth.

Or to shave the rough edges off our understanding and therefore to expose the truth?

Quote

  But for you  to A make a claim that the stock market is disconnected from the economy and B think you’ve in any way proven it with your graphs is far fetched at best.    You didn’t attempt to prove that the market is inflated beyond what one would expect based on the future worth of corp profits.  A case could be made for that.  You have the made the incredible statement that its completely disconnected from the economy. 

And I proved it.

It was 2 parts.

The first part demonstrated that the money unit has been tampered with. Therefore, economic calculation will be distorted.

Then I showed the fed funds rate and how we centrally plan it.

Since the interest rate is necessary to calculate the time value of money, and since discounted future earnings drive stock market prices, we are staring face to face with the distorting mechanism.

So the mechanism for ascertaining value in the market is broken.

And then we looked at final sales and the baltic dry for a look at the real economy- which was depressing.

But yet the stock market is reaching new highs!

So obviously we have a disconnection from reality!

The stock market is going up because of the relationship between weak currency and corporate profits made overseas, booked in US dollars.
Quote

And the best part is it has nothing to do with my post.  4 years ago, cons predicted the ‘end of the world’. Not only did it not happen but we had one of the greatest bull runs in history.  And  if Obama was a republican, cons would be singing the praises of his economy with the DOW as proof. 

kind of reminds of 93. You couldnt have a conversation with a con without them saying "double dip" .  Literally they walked around like zombies just saying 'double dip" . They were told that Clintons tax increases on the top 20% would certainly cause a double dip.  Long story short, once again the exact opposite of what cons 'predict' happened.

I dont remember what your post said.

But if it was anything like the above, with the partisan political awareness, then I probably didn't reply on purpose!
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

 

Powered by EzPortal