Author Topic: WOW 14000 DOW  (Read 4591 times)

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2013, 11:56:18 AM »
Which is why I stick solely to facts, raw facts have no opinion to sway one with, like a hard science.

Is it possible to stick solely to facts?

Or does the nature of fact itself involve a theory?
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Many of today's ideas were formed by great communicators of the past, it is these opinions I try and avoid, so as to get a clearer picture of how we arrived at our current place.

I dont understand what you mean.

How does avoiding ideas and opinions give you a clear picture?

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Say for example, had Hitler never arrived on the scene, where would we be today?

I tend to stick to history as much as possible and current on science, while taking in the chess game of politics, a very complicated game, one the left plays several moves ahead of the right and is always dictating the outcome, sometimes to their own peril.

I am really confused by your post here.

How do you avoid reading books, but stick to history and fact?

I dont get it..
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Online Solar

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2013, 05:43:54 PM »
Is it possible to stick solely to facts?

Or does the nature of fact itself involve a theory?
I dont understand what you mean.

How does avoiding ideas and opinions give you a clear picture?

I am really confused by your post here.

How do you avoid reading books, but stick to history and fact?

I dont get it..
It's a matter of understanding how and why we got to where we are, then reading backwards.
Why did the Founders do what they did, then examine the time and place in a historical manner, wars, politics,etc.
Instead of simply picking up a so called history book written by one author and a few researchers thinking in kind.

It's like reading one article on a subject and forming  an opinion, many of the books on a given subject tend to have ingrained, (no matter how slight), the authors opinion.

I prefer to read the actual accounts and form my own opinion.
It works for me, you should try it, it's akin to turning off the sound on TV and just watching the video.
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Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2013, 09:23:35 PM »
It's a matter of understanding how and why we got to where we are, then reading backwards.

And all of that can be done without resorting to a theory of what caused what?

Where does such knowledge come from?

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Why did the Founders do what they did, then examine the time and place in a historical manner, wars, politics,etc.

And how much of that is objective information?

How much theory laden?
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Instead of simply picking up a so called history book written by one author and a few researchers thinking in kind.

So where do you get your knowledge?

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It's like reading one article on a subject and forming  an opinion, many of the books on a given subject tend to have ingrained, (no matter how slight), the authors opinion.

But not the articles?

No ingrained bias there?

And is an opinion formed from a single article really very valuable?

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I prefer to read the actual accounts and form my own opinion.
It works for me, you should try it, it's akin to turning off the sound on TV and just watching the video.

What are actual accounts?

Where do they come from- if not from the hand, mind or mouth of another human?

I am sorry Soral, but I don't have the foggiest idea of what it is you are talking about.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Online Solar

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2013, 09:56:13 PM »
And all of that can be done without resorting to a theory of what caused what?

Where does such knowledge come from?

And how much of that is objective information?

How much theory laden?
So where do you get your knowledge?

But not the articles?

No ingrained bias there?

And is an opinion formed from a single article really very valuable?

What are actual accounts?

Where do they come from- if not from the hand, mind or mouth of another human?

I am sorry Soral, but I don't have the foggiest idea of what it is you are talking about.
Let me see if I can give an example.
Take Nam, now read Cronkite's version of the war, as opposed to those that actually served.

Now do you get it?
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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2013, 12:03:36 AM »
Wow, who would have thought 4 short years after President Obama started, the DOW would be up almost 6000 points. well I think safe to say "nobody at this board".

Was it only 4 years ago, the screams and chants from the right were

"THE MARKET IS GOING TO ZERO"
"WE WILL HAVE HYPER INFLATION"
"THE DOLLAR WILL COLLAPSE"
"SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM"

here's one of the supposed leading 'financial' newspapers. 

"
Obama's Radicalism Is Killing the Dow
"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123629969453946717.html

When they wrote that the DOW was about 6500.  Thats down from inauguration day of about 8200.  How could a supposed 'financial' paper miss the first 6000 point drop of that massive market crash?



Back on MySpace, during his first year, we used to get day by day reportings of how much the DOW/NASDAQ/S&P were plummeting under Obama and how Obama was bad for the markets. Now that it has gone up [and, in some respects, exceeded what Bush even did], it doesn't matter anymore.

BTW, just sold off my Melco and Groupon. As the meme goes, thanks Obama.  :thumbup:

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2013, 08:28:45 AM »
Let me see if I can give an example.
Take Nam, now read Cronkite's version of the war, as opposed to those that actually served.

Now do you get it?

No, I really dont.

I would probably ignore Cronkite's version, as he is part of the establishment.

Now, those who actually served have great insight into the logistics of the battle, or so on, but they are limited in what they can say about geo-political sea changes, policy goals, the role of special interests in pushing for war, such as banks or weapons manufacturers... etc

But all that aside, the recounts of soldiers, politicians, historians and the rest can never be purely objective fact.

For in order to decide which aspects of reality are relevant to report one must have a theory of what causes what, if only to separate relevant facts from the irrelevant.

That requires theory.

And everyone does it, from the solider, to the commander, to the historian.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Online Solar

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2013, 09:48:33 AM »
No, I really dont.

I would probably ignore Cronkite's version, as he is part of the establishment.

Now, those who actually served have great insight into the logistics of the battle, or so on, but they are limited in what they can say about geo-political sea changes, policy goals, the role of special interests in pushing for war, such as banks or weapons manufacturers... etc

But all that aside, the recounts of soldiers, politicians, historians and the rest can never be purely objective fact.

For in order to decide which aspects of reality are relevant to report one must have a theory of what causes what, if only to separate relevant facts from the irrelevant.

That requires theory.

And everyone does it, from the solider, to the commander, to the historian.
A puzzle only has pieces, one must put all the pieces in place to complete the entire picture, theory is a not a piece, it is merely a guess at the full picture, the facts are what complete the puzzle.

One can read all the theories, and come to their own conclusion, but still, it's merely a theory.
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Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2013, 10:13:56 AM »
A puzzle only has pieces, one must put all the pieces in place to complete the entire picture, theory is a not a piece, it is merely a guess at the full picture, the facts are what complete the puzzle.

One can read all the theories, and come to their own conclusion, but still, it's merely a theory.

All that is true.

And none of it addresses the points in the post you responded to.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Offline kramarat

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2013, 10:32:13 AM »
No, I really dont.

I would probably ignore Cronkite's version, as he is part of the establishment.

Now, those who actually served have great insight into the logistics of the battle, or so on, but they are limited in what they can say about geo-political sea changes, policy goals, the role of special interests in pushing for war, such as banks or weapons manufacturers... etc

But all that aside, the recounts of soldiers, politicians, historians and the rest can never be purely objective fact.

For in order to decide which aspects of reality are relevant to report one must have a theory of what causes what, if only to separate relevant facts from the irrelevant.

That requires theory.

And everyone does it, from the solider, to the commander, to the historian.

I've posited that there are as many realities as there are people....................
Which makes it pretty difficult to pin down.

Online Solar

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2013, 11:34:45 AM »
All that is true.

And none of it addresses the points in the post you responded to.
I'm a self educated man, the majority of my knowledge base is from tons of research and experience.
Yes, I've read crib notes of many books, only to lead me to pursue the actual events by those that were there, which is one reason I never fall for conspiracy theory, I want the facts, not a bunch of wild theories from a myriad of so called experts.

I do not come to final conclusions based on other opinions, it really is that simple.

This also explains why you theorize your style of "not Govt" would work in today's climate, and why I say it wouldn't, you deal in theory, I deal in fact.

Nothing wrong with the way you come to conclusions, it's just not the way I do it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:50:59 AM by Solar »
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Offline kramarat

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2013, 12:32:19 PM »
I'm a self educated man, the majority of my knowledge base is from tons of research and experience.
Yes, I've read crib notes of many books, only to lead me to pursue the actual events by those that were there, which is one reason I never fall for conspiracy theory, I want the facts, not a bunch of wild theories from a myriad of so called experts.

I do not come to final conclusions based on other opinions, it really is that simple.

This also explains why you theorize your style of "not Govt" would work in today's climate, and why I say it wouldn't, you deal in theory, I deal in fact.

Nothing wrong with the way you come to conclusions, it's just not the way I do it.

No govt is impossible.

Two's company, three's a crowd, comes to mind.

Whether TL wants to admit it or not, "government" begins forming whenever an individual becomes part of a group. Even if it's two people.

He also assumes that we don't understand his concept. Well, I do. I also understand that if it was ever applied, it would fail...............quickly.

It's the reason why the communes of the 60's failed. A total lack of government led to people reverting to their petty, lazy, greedy ways. Nobody was compelled to do anything, so they didn't.

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2013, 01:15:26 PM »
No govt is impossible.

Two's company, three's a crowd, comes to mind.

Whether TL wants to admit it or not, "government" begins forming whenever an individual becomes part of a group. Even if it's two people.

He also assumes that we don't understand his concept. Well, I do. I also understand that if it was ever applied, it would fail...............quickly.

It's the reason why the communes of the 60's failed. A total lack of government led to people reverting to their petty, lazy, greedy ways. Nobody was compelled to do anything, so they didn't.
That's what I've been saying, any form of agreement where a system is in place that dictates rules of agreement, is in and of itself, a Govt. he can call it anything he likes, but for other Govts to recognize your system, they will view it as a govt and apply their own laws accordingly.
If they have a dispute, they will not look to his for of Govt for resolution where one has no laws with teeth to back it up.

It's nice to theorize everyone will think just like you do, but people are people, which is why we have libs and cons with opposing views, it's human nature, and no matter how hard you try, you can't make everyone the same.

Even if people agreed to the rules, their offspring didn't sign on with the same enthusiasm, which is why we have the divide we have today, not everyone appreciated the Constitution, they wanted to change it.
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Offline kramarat

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2013, 01:35:26 PM »
That's what I've been saying, any form of agreement where a system is in place that dictates rules of agreement, is in and of itself, a Govt. he can call it anything he likes, but for other Govts to recognize your system, they will view it as a govt and apply their own laws accordingly.
If they have a dispute, they will not look to his for of Govt for resolution where one has no laws with teeth to back it up.

It's nice to theorize everyone will think just like you do, but people are people, which is why we have libs and cons with opposing views, it's human nature, and no matter how hard you try, you can't make everyone the same.

Even if people agreed to the rules, their offspring didn't sign on with the same enthusiasm, which is why we have the divide we have today, not everyone appreciated the Constitution, they wanted to change it.

It's a great concept, but a society that is based on volunteer associations will fail. There will always be people, (lots of them), that will volunteer to take your shit, rather than earning their own.

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2013, 02:30:51 PM »
I'm a self educated man, the majority of my knowledge base is from tons of research and experience.
Yes, I've read crib notes of many books, only to lead me to pursue the actual events by those that were there, which is one reason I never fall for conspiracy theory, I want the facts, not a bunch of wild theories from a myriad of so called experts.

I do not come to final conclusions based on other opinions, it really is that simple.

This also explains why you theorize your style of "not Govt" would work in today's climate, and why I say it wouldn't, you deal in theory, I deal in fact.

Nothing wrong with the way you come to conclusions, it's just not the way I do it.

I honestly don't believe any of that makes any sense.

The big divide between theory and fact is oversold.

Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: WOW 14000 DOW
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2013, 02:32:23 PM »
No govt is impossible.

Two's company, three's a crowd, comes to mind.

Whether TL wants to admit it or not, "government" begins forming whenever an individual becomes part of a group. Even if it's two people.

He also assumes that we don't understand his concept. Well, I do. I also understand that if it was ever applied, it would fail...............quickly.

It's the reason why the communes of the 60's failed. A total lack of government led to people reverting to their petty, lazy, greedy ways. Nobody was compelled to do anything, so they didn't.

That is completely wrong.

Government is not whatever you want it to mean.

I can be around a group of friends, hell, I will be tonight.

That does not mean we have government.

Not a one of them would respect my claim of rule, if I were to assert it.

No more than a corporation is a government.

The word government has a specific meaning.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

 

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