Looks like the EU isn't a fan of China dumping panels.

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/06/04/eu-tariffs-chinese-solar/2387951/

China, the world's largest producer of solar panels, is accused by the EU of selling them below-cost — a tactic known as dumping — to corner the market. Its exports of solar panels to Europe totaled 21 billion euros in 2011.

The cheap Chinese products are flooding the market and threaten to bring down EU manufacturers, De Gucht told journalists in Brussels.

According to EU calculations, a fair sale price for Chinese solar panels should 88% higher than what they are currently being sold for.

And they would be correct. Then there is the issue with quality control in China, there is none.
Germany makes the best cells in the world and recycles the crap, China the worst, it doesn't take a genius to see what's going on, the Chinese corner the mkt with cheap crap, the consumer is clueless because the panels look identical and both produce energy, so they buy the cheap crap instead.
And the rest is history as Europe loses it's mkt.

Oh, and for the ignorant one out there, we invented this technology over 100 years ago, ARCO was the first to mass produce it, Siemens of Germany bought out ARCO, Shell bought out Siemens and both Shell and BP were the biggest manufacturers of top quality cells and still are, with Japan close 2nd, but the Chinese are killing the industry, with the help of the Marxist in the WH.

And a reminder as Taxed pointed out and someone still can't grasp the enormity of the situation, we put a Rover on Mars, yet some people still think other countries are the innovators of development.
We invent it and give it away to the world.

Let me add one caveat to the above.
Europe has extremely high standards, particularly Germany, because the Govt subsidizes a huge amount of the industry solar, nearly all of it.
So they, having control, set the bar extremely high, and if just one cell is not within wattage output, they never went into the panel.
China on the other hand doesn't check individual cells, rather the finished product, which means minerals may not even be evenly distributed in a given cell, which means under a flash test for output it will pass, but real world conditions will be a completely different story.

So Europe sees this practice as selling below mkt pricing, because China sells flawed solar panels, when in truth, China is doing what it always does, sell cheap crap that merely looks good.

You know what I mean, you buy a cheap good looking tool set, only to have them rust before you can use them, or break first time out.

Remember about 40 years ago, when everything you bought was American made and exceeded world standards? Standards, that's another story...

Quote from: Solar on June 09, 2013, 07:58:20 PM
Let me add one caveat to the above.
Europe has extremely high standards, particularly Germany, because the Govt subsidizes a huge amount of the industry solar, nearly all of it.
So they, having control, set the bar extremely high, and if just one cell is not within wattage output, they never went into the panel.
China on the other hand doesn't check individual cells, rather the finished product, which means minerals may not even be evenly distributed in a given cell, which means under a flash test for output it will pass, but real world conditions will be a completely different story.

So Europe sees this practice as selling below mkt pricing, because China sells flawed solar panels, when in truth, China is doing what it always does, sell cheap crap that merely looks good.

You know what I mean, you buy a cheap good looking tool set, only to have them rust before you can use them, or break first time out.

Remember about 40 years ago, when everything you bought was American made and exceeded world standards? Standards, that's another story...

Very interesting.  It seems Europe actually wants the panels functional, while the US is just trying to get a deal done.

Quote from: taxed on June 29, 2013, 12:31:34 PM
Very interesting.  It seems Europe actually wants the panels functional, while the US is just trying to get a deal done.

Bingo!!! Germany used the technology ARCO developed, (single cut crystal) and never once thought making less productive panels was a good business move, especially when you consider it only cost a little bit more to make the best panel possible.
The steps are all the same, the end product looks the same, problem is, if the (ingots pictured below, with finished sliced cells) cells aren't grown exactly to specs, then sliced off to create cells, cheap cells simply won't produce under high heat in summer months.
Siemens knew this and knew if they created inferior products, that people would quit buying them.

Now enter Husein, he forces solar on an unsuspecting nation, Govt forces energy prices higher, Govt offers rebates on solar, so what does the consumer do, he looks for the best price, not understanding the industry, he relies on the salesman to teach him.

Next step that takes place is, (cheap cells enter the mkt) these inferior ingots that were grown, are ground into powder, mixed with a resin to create a paint film that can be painted on glass (amorphous), this process works fine if you know the product is only going to be used for a decade or so, like solar path lights calculators etc, but on a roof, they simply aren't effective, they look fine, produce power but only 65% compared to a quality panels output.

Thing is, in about a decade or more, these panels simply won't be producing enough power to feed the grid.
The grid is like a charged fire hose full of water under pressure, say 75 lbs of pressure, you just can't hook up a garden hose and add pressure or volume to the charged fire hose, you need to push in more water pressure than is already present in the line, solar is the same, a well designed system with high quality panels can create the power needed to enter the power grid, but if you have a 20% degradation in your system, it will not be feeding the grid and spinning your meter backwards, so to speak.

Bottom line, Husein fed the people one huge lie, that solar was feasible, when it's not, it never has and never will have a place on the grid, it was a fools dream.
As a well planned scheme to cut our ability to produce cheap energy, it was all part of a decades old plan by communists.

Very interesting.  People get lost in solar, I think, because they don't understand some basics panels need to be replaced after X number of years (what do savings/costs look like spread out over the life of the panels?), and to store the energy, batteries are needed.  This seems to be overlooked when talking about solar.  People think they can throw a few panels on their roof and call it a day.

Quote from: taxed on June 29, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
Very interesting.  People get lost in solar, I think, because they don't understand some basics panels need to be replaced after X number of years (what do savings/costs look like spread out over the life of the panels?), and to store the energy, batteries are needed.  This seems to be overlooked when talking about solar.  People think they can throw a few panels on their roof and call it a day.

My system, including batteries and diesel genset, is well over 100 grand, most people can't do that without going into debt.
The panels I have will be working 4 or 5 generations from now, the cheap crap will be dead in 10 to 30 years, and those that bought into it will curse the leftists for it, assuming they still have a home to put panels on if we don't purge these Marxists.

I remember the 60s when the electric bill and gas totaled five bucks, granted, that was an hours worth worth of wages, but try and pay for both today on one hour off work.
Here we are, a Nation awash in free natural gas, electricity could be cheap if we had nuke plants, but the leftists have saw to it we cannot produce, all planned by the communists.

Quote from: Solar on June 29, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
My system, including batteries and diesel genset, is well over 100 grand, most people can't do that without going into debt.
The panels I have will be working 4 or 5 generations from now, the cheap crap will be dead in 10 to 30 years, and those that bought into it will curse the leftists for it, assuming they still have a home to put panels on if we don't purge these Marxists.

I remember the 60s when the electric bill and gas totaled five bucks, granted, that was an hours worth worth of wages, but try and pay for both today on one hour off work.
Here we are, a Nation awash in free natural gas, electricity could be cheap if we had nuke plants, but the leftists have saw to it we cannot produce, all planned by the communists.

If people don't want to support and push for nuclear innovation, then they care nothing about clean energy, the environment, or giving more opportunity to the lower class. 

Quote from: taxed on June 29, 2013, 07:45:32 PM
If people don't want to support and push for nuclear innovation, then they care nothing about clean energy, the environment, or giving more opportunity to the lower class.

Yep, this is proof of just how ignorant libs are, and how easily led as a group of sheep thy are.
They actually believe Green energy is viable, and that nuclear will kill us all.

Talk about backward thinking, Hell, if they actually took the time to understand the Green movement, they would see just how big of tools they are for the communist movement.

Another reason to embargo China, I'm conflicted about China though, they seem to be the only country willing to work with European right wing governments whereas USA foreign policy is to follow Brussel like a dog.