Quote from: Supposn on November 23, 2013, 07:37:42 PM
Solar, everything purchased within a state that levies a sales tax, has that tax imbedded within the price of those goods and service products within all links of commercial transaction chains. 

Stop right there!
When I purchase a product from the manufacturer for resale, then sell it to a dealer, not one of us paid a damn cent to the State.
Where in the Hell do you get this nonsense?

There is no embedded tax, no tax has been applied, because the product hasn't reached it,s final destination, the end consumer, the only one to pay the tax on the product.

Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2013, 07:10:42 AM
Stop right there!
When I purchase a product from the manufacturer for resale, then sell it to a dealer, not one of us paid a damn cent to the State.
Where in the Hell do you get this nonsense?

There is no embedded tax, no tax has been applied, because the product hasn't reached it,s final destination, the end consumer, the only one to pay the tax on the product.

You do know that Supposn BS would be very comical, if it was not so sad that someone paid for his education.

Quote from: walkstall on November 24, 2013, 07:36:13 AM

You do know that Supposn BS would be very comical, if it was not so sad that someone paid for his education.

I don't believe that kind of thinking is taught anywhere, it is simply not reality in this Capitalist Nation, maybe Canada, but definitely not here.

Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2013, 07:10:42 AM
Stop right there!
When I purchase a product from the manufacturer for resale, then sell it to a dealer, not one of us paid a damn cent to the State.
Where in the Hell do you get this nonsense?

There is no embedded tax, no tax has been applied, because the product hasn't reached it,s final destination, the end consumer, the only one to pay the tax on the product.

Solar, your post includes the qualifier, "for resale".
I am (and I believe you're also aware) of many enterprises where the majority of the service and goods products they purchase and any sales tax they paid for those products that  are not for resale.  They're used and consumed in the course of the enterprises' operations.
The enterprise deducts those expenditures from taxable incomes because they cannot recover those 100% of those sales tax expenditures.  All of those expenditures are reflected to the prices paid by final purchasers within each chain of commercial transactions and any sales taxes paid by those final purchasers are thus understated.

[Excerpted from reply #29: "I would be surprised if you were not knowledgeable of your own enterprises but I would also be surprised if you were to claim your enterprises' models are entirely perfect fits as descriptive models for all other enterprises.  Respectfully, Supposn."
My confidence in your intelligence leads me to doubt what I consider to actually be your pretense of ignorance].   

I'm personally aware of an interstate enterprise that normally reimburses' purchases made on behalf of the enterprise.  It is much less feasible to have the individual enterprise's agents and employees deal with the enterprise's tax ID within each of differing states.  These are not rare or unique business models.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2013, 07:55:42 AM
I don't believe that kind of thinking is taught anywhere, it is simply not reality in this Capitalist Nation, maybe Canada, but definitely not here.

You might be wasting your time. Supposn clearly does not understand sales tax OR the VAT-style taxation system. In fact, he appears to have the definitions of the two exactly backwards.

Quote from: TboneAgain on November 24, 2013, 09:32:16 AM
You might be wasting your time. Supposn clearly does not understand sales tax OR the VAT-style taxation system. In fact, he appears to have the definitions of the two exactly backwards.

It does appear that way.
He misses one very important aspect of VAT, "Value ADDED Tax

Quote from: Supposn on November 24, 2013, 09:18:45 AM
Solar, your post includes the qualifier, "for resale".
I am (and I believe you're also aware) of many enterprises where the majority of the service and goods products they purchase and any sales tax they paid for those products that  are not for resale.  They're used and consumed in the course of the enterprises' operations.
The enterprise deducts those expenditures from taxable incomes because they cannot recover those 100% of those sales tax expenditures.  All of those expenditures are reflected to the prices paid by final purchasers within each chain of commercial transactions and any sales taxes paid by those final purchasers are thus understated.

[Excerpted from reply #29: "I would be surprised if you were not knowledgeable of your own enterprises but I would also be surprised if you were to claim your enterprises' models are entirely perfect fits as descriptive models for all other enterprises.  Respectfully, Supposn."
My confidence in your intelligence leads me to doubt what I consider to actually be your pretense of ignorance].   

I'm personally aware of an interstate enterprise that normally reimburses' purchases made on behalf of the enterprise.  It is much less feasible to have the individual enterprise's agents and employees deal with the enterprise's tax ID within each of differing states.  These are not rare or unique business models.

Respectfully, Supposn

Can you stay on topic just this once and address my post as written.
Your post made absolutely no sense in context to what I stated as fact!

Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2013, 10:06:21 AM
It does appear that way.
He misses one very important aspect of VAT, "Value ADDED Tax

He is just a leftist who sees the VAT as way to increase taxation without the LIV's knowing it.

Quote from: supsalemgr on November 24, 2013, 10:42:43 AM
He is just a leftist who sees the VAT as an opportunity to increase taxes without the LIV's realizing it.

Exactly. VATs are specifically designed for that purpose. Sales tax increases usually have to be approved by means of a ballot issue. Not so with VAT increases. And most of the VATs you actually pay when you buy something are NOT on your sales receipt, but buried in the cost of whatever you bought.

Quote from: supsalemgr on November 24, 2013, 10:41:01 AM
He is just a leftist who sees the VAT as way to increase taxation without the LIV's knowing it.

Yep, Ca is evidence of higher taxation. The left pushed too far and the producers left the state.

Quote from: TboneAgain on November 24, 2013, 10:48:42 AM
Exactly. VATs are specifically designed for that purpose. Sales tax increases usually have to be approved by means of a ballot issue. Not so with VAT increases. And most of the VATs you actually pay when you buy something are NOT on your sales receipt, but buried in the cost of whatever you bought.

I tried explaining that it adds roughly 30% to the final product, and depending how it's designed, the state can still tag on it's 5+% at the end of the transaction.
And good point about "Taxation Without Representation".

I wonder if these libs would bitch when they too have to pay higher costs associated with VAT, as was the lie about O'Commiecare?

Quote from: Supposn on November 05, 2013, 08:56:49 PM
"Value Added Tax", (i.e. VAT) is a particular and superior method of administrating a sales tax.

Unlike prior (conventional) sales tax methods, VAT never taxes any prior levied taxes carried forward from prior sales transactions. Within a chain of sales links, the tax levied upon the purchaser within any transaction link is government's total revenue realized up to that particular point within the chain of transactions.

Unlike other sales tax methods, enterprises reduce their amounts of VAT collected by the VATs they've paid, and only pass the difference on to the government. There is little advantage or reason for intermediate purchasers to request the seller not record a sales transaction.

///////////////////////////////////////////
VAT's particularly suitable for global trade.
Governments waive taxes upon their exports, but they can only do so to the extent that they're able to identify specific amounts of taxes levied upon the products within each of their export shipments.

VAT levied within the export sales' transaction are the entire VAT (from all prior and the export link within the chain of sales transactions that can be identified and attributed to a shipment of exported goods.
The prices of exports from VAT nations are reduced by the greatest amounts.

In the case of a non-VAT nation, only sales taxes from the export transaction itself can be identified. The prices of exports are reduced by lesser amounts.

Other than sales taxes of any kind, there are few if any other taxes that can e identified and be attributed to the products within an export shipment.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
[Excerpted from
" http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2010/0722_vat_gale.aspx ".

The key distinction is that VATs are collected at each stage of production, whereas retail sales taxes are collected only at point of final sale. As a result, the VAT is easier to enforce and is widely regarded as having a superior administrative structure to a retail sales tax".
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

What's apparently the "final point of some goods or service products' sales may not be that in every case.  I suppose the final case of an auto vehicle's sale is after any salvaged parts have been sold and the remainder of the vehicle is reduced to a cube of crushed steel.  There are a great many transactions between auto producers' purchases of goods and services and their vehicles' apparent points of final sales. 

Most state's tax collecting bureaucracies collect many taxes upon previous intermediate transaction prior to that apparent last transaction.  The distributions of those steel cubes are additional taxable services within most state's sales tax laws.
VAT is the only sales tax administrative method which assures that nothing will be taxed more than once.

Respectfully, Supposn

Gotta tell ya, you know who will scream the loudest and the fastest about that method??  STATES (governors, legislatures, etc). If the above is just a replacement plan for INCOME TAX, how will that filter down to states and municipalities for schools, roads, fire/EMT services, sewers, etc.  If it is and we still have all the local and state taxes, that will be a big tax increase on alot of people.  Be very careful what you wish for.

Quote from: cpicturetaker12 on November 25, 2013, 04:24:21 PM
Gotta tell ya, you know who will scream the loudest and the fastest about that method??  STATES (governors, legislatures, etc). If the above is just a replacement plan for INCOME TAX, how will that filter down to states and municipalities for schools, roads, fire/EMT services, sewers, etc.  If it is and we still have all the local and state taxes, that will be a big tax increase on alot of people.  Be very careful what you wish for.

Strangely enough, he doesn't understand that.

Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2013, 10:09:31 AM
Can you stay on topic just this once and address my post as written.
Your post made absolutely no sense in context to what I stated as fact![

Solar, it would help if your posts were specific.  In this case, (reply #36), you refer to a post but I have no idea what post you're referring to.  You have written opinions that you may consider as facts, but opinions are just opinions.

You did not refute or offer any counter arguments to my prior post, (reply #33).  It's fully on topic.

My children become upset when I discuss their enterprises by name.  I will not identify them.  If you consider their commercial experiences as unique or impossible fiction, I'll just consider you as ignorant of business models that differ from your own enterprise.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on November 25, 2013, 09:57:34 PM
Solar, it would help if your posts were specific.  In this case, (reply #36), you refer to a post but I have no idea what post you're referring to.  You have written opinions that you may consider as facts, but opinions are just opinions.

You did not refute or offer any counter arguments to my prior post, (reply #33).  It's fully on topic.

My children become upset when I discuss their enterprises by name.  I will not identify them.  If you consider their commercial experiences as unique or impossible fiction, I'll just consider you as ignorant of business models that differ from your own enterprise.

Respectfully, Supposn

Ya know, I have been extremely patient with your complete ignorance of the subject, but when you can't even follow the flow of a simple conversation, I see I'm completely wasting my time.

Don't take this as an insult, there is none intended, but I believe your age is catching up with you.
Try taking salmon oil capsules, it really helps clear my thought pattern it really does.