The problem of being pro-growth and against a rising federal debt

Started by Econ4Every1, December 04, 2016, 07:30:44 PM

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Solar

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 05, 2016, 11:37:45 AM
So you believe that all business are funded via PC?
You need to qualify that.
That makes no sense. I've been in business more than 40 years and only once used investors.
The rest of the time I did it all on literal pennies and succeeded.
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Econ4Every1

Quote from: Solar on December 05, 2016, 11:43:30 AM
You need to qualify that.
That makes no sense. I've been in business more than 40 years and only once used investors.
The rest of the time I did it all on literal pennies and succeeded.

Small business loans come from banks, correct?  Would you consider a loan from a bank as "Private Capital"?

Next question....

How does money come into existence?

taxed

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 05, 2016, 11:37:45 AM
So you believe that all business are funded via PC?

I've been in business for for almost 20 years and I've never taken a dime from the government. How did I do that without government?
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supsalemgr

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 05, 2016, 11:55:46 AM
Small business loans come from banks, correct?  Would you consider a loan from a bank as "Private Capital"?

Next question....

How does money come into existence?

Are you really trying to make the point that all investment funds come from the government printing money and lending it to banks so they can lend it to the privates sector? Ever heard of venture capitalists?
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

taxed

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 05, 2016, 11:55:46 AM
Small business loans come from banks, correct?
Not just banks, but also private investors.  I don't know of any business that started with and SBA loan.  I know they exist, but I've never seen one.  My businesses were started from my savings,and my partners' savings.  Most businesses start from private investment, such as venture capital, angel investors, even crowdfunding nowadays.  The government is the last place I'd go to if I ever needed to put together some cash.

Quote
  Would you consider a loan from a bank as "Private Capital"?
Yes, in theory, but not with all these regulations.

Quote
Next question....
Slow down... you're not done yet.  Explain how I, and many others, started our business without government help.  Your enter argument depends on this.
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Solar

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 05, 2016, 11:55:46 AM
Small business loans come from banks, correct?  Would you consider a loan from a bank as "Private Capital"?

Next question....

How does money come into existence?
Nope! Maybe in your world, but you're talking more about home loans, not business loans, banks hate small business loans.
Now if you were to say 'Savings and Loan' institutions that specialize in small business.
But 'Savings and Loan' are private entities owned by the private sector, not the govt..
Don't confuse FDIC with govt ownership.

My money came from my hard work, you know, like 99% of all small business did when they came into existence.
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Solar

Quote from: supsalemgr on December 05, 2016, 12:27:35 PM
Are you really trying to make the point that all investment funds come from the government printing money and lending it to banks so they can lend it to the privates sector? Ever heard of venture capitalists?
I think you hit the nail. I just assumed he knew more than that.
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Econ4Every1

Quote from: taxed on December 05, 2016, 12:33:28 PM
Not just banks, but also private investors.  I don't know of any business that started with and SBA loan.  I know they exist, but I've never seen one.  My businesses were started from my savings,and my partners' savings.  Most businesses start from private investment, such as venture capital, angel investors, even crowdfunding nowadays.  The government is the last place I'd go to if I ever needed to put together some cash.
Yes, in theory, but not with all these regulations.
Slow down... you're not done yet.  Explain how I, and many others, started our business without government help.  Your enter argument depends on this.

First, I'd like to thank you guys for being patient and resisting the urge to be rude (I can handle a little snark).  I wasn't aware that most businesses started with "investor capital".  That is to say, money already in existence rather than borrowing from a bank.  Little Googling and I found out that you can start a business via personal savings, private investment, bank loans, though it did say that bank loans usually require high amounts of collateral and other sources that were pointed out here like crowd funding.

So thanks for that.

Please, please don't assume I'm here only to give information.  I'm here to get it as well.  Case in point, this thread.   

Having said that, learning that small business are funded mostly through existing capital, while interesting, doesn't undermine anything I've said though it gives me more perspective.

I have to admit, I don't know what you mean when you ask me to explain how you started your business without government help.


taxed

Quote from: supsalemgr on December 05, 2016, 12:27:35 PM
Are you really trying to make the point that all investment funds come from the government printing money and lending it to banks so they can lend it to the privates sector? Ever heard of venture capitalists?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Econ4Every1

Quote from: supsalemgr on December 05, 2016, 12:27:35 PM
Are you really trying to make the point that all investment funds come from the government printing money and lending it to banks so they can lend it to the privates sector? Ever heard of venture capitalists?

No that's not what I'm saying, though I don't think, with all due respect, based on what you've said that you really understand banking.

If today were the first day of the US government.  How would the first dollars get into circulation if the system were the same as we have now?


taxed

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 05, 2016, 12:56:11 PM
No that's not what I'm saying, though I don't think, with all due respect, based on what you've said that you really understand banking.

If today were the first day of the US government.  How would the first dollars get into circulation if the system were the same as we have now?

You clearly did not read that mises.org link I posted to you before.  Why would you not take the time to read it when I took the time to reply and provide it for you.  If you are truly interested in learning, then that link would answer the question you just asked here.
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taxed

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Solar

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 05, 2016, 12:56:11 PM
No that's not what I'm saying, though I don't think, with all due respect, based on what you've said that you really understand banking.

If today were the first day of the US government.  How would the first dollars get into circulation if the system were the same as we have now?
Banking is not restricted to the Fed, though regulated by the Fed, it doesn't exist because of Govt, banking has existed since the beginning of time inspite of govt.
Govt is strictly a regulatory institution.
You're going to hate this, but there was no such thing as income tax, and the inception of the Federal Reserve, which created crony capitalism.
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Econ4Every1

Quote from: taxed on December 05, 2016, 01:00:51 PM
You clearly did not read that mises.org link I posted to you before.  Why would you not take the time to read it when I took the time to reply and provide it for you.  If you are truly interested in learning, then that link would answer the question you just asked here.

I think we're getting close...

I did read it.  But it does not account for how money enters the economy.  It talked about productivity, even savings which are extremely important, but nowhere in that link does it mention money creation, only wealth creation through the manipulation of labor and real resources and "savings".

QuoteThus, Able's low time preference puts him in the fast track of an ascending spiral: a virtuous "Cycle of Growth." Saving (delaying consumption) supports more capital goods, which boosts productivity, which creates more to save, and around he goes.

What is Able saving?  His productivity?  If yes, then he is operating in a barter style economy.  If dollars, where did the dollars come from?

Econ4Every1

Quote from: Solar on December 05, 2016, 01:06:28 PM
Banking is not restricted to the Fed, though regulated by the Fed, it doesn't exist because of Govt, banking has existed since the beginning of time inspite of govt.
Govt is strictly a regulatory institution.
You're going to hate this, but there was no such thing as income tax, and the inception of the Federal Reserve, which created crony capitalism.

I don't hate it and I'm already familiar with the claims you've made.  Those are political decisions.  I told you, I'm not judging the politics of it, at least in this thread.  We can start another thread if you like and discuss, but it's hard enough keeping on-track in this conversation.

Whether they exist legitimately or not, taxes and the Fed are a reality in our lives.  Most people pay taxes and the Fed plays a part in monetary policy.  I'm not trying to tell you they are legitimate, or the best way to run an economy, I'm trying to explain how they really work.

Let's have this discussion first, then we can branch out.  Ok?