Author Topic: the "supposed" fiscal cliff  (Read 3728 times)

Online Solar

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Vernice afraid to answer simple questions
« Reply #75 on: February 01, 2013, 06:52:38 AM »
solar, you know whats really funny.  You accuse of posting things I didnt post  (your claim that I said Obama balanced the budget) and then accuse of not posting things I did post. and I answered your question several times.  I even adjusted the answer using the deficit from 2012. You just dont like the answer because it doesnt fit your 'faith' based economic beliefs

Id say ask your toadies but even you know I answered it.  Lets face it solar, you dont like the facts I post.  You thought "bush tried to warn us about the bubble" and you've been ranting at me ever since.   

and if you are really really mad that we are not paying back our creditors, guess what, not paying back our creditors was one of the excuses for the Bush Tax cuts

Running surpluses without a debt, Greenspan warned, would result in the "longer-term fiscal policy issue" of a government paying off its debt, particularly long-term Treasury bonds, before the bonds mature — costing it extra money by buying back those securities from private investors before they mature. Which is very expensive — better to buy back only matured bonds, which won't be possible until at least 2011.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,96747,00.html

Hey dumb ass, did I say anything about politics in the question? It's just a simple yes or no question.
Are you smart enough to answer a yes or no question?

Now stop playing semantics and evasion, I'm really getting tired of it.
Now I'll ask once more, and if you notice it has nothing to do with your master, the Great Husein.

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Is it good policy to, borrow money endlessly all the while running up a tab?
Or would it be better to cut back on spending and live within your means all the while paying back your creditors?
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Offline Vern

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sadly he wont
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2013, 09:03:53 AM »
question A. depends on how much.  The current deficits are too much. 
question B  no.   

now will you stop fixating on me and demanding I agree with your factless non thread related rhetoric? Fixate on the facts I post then maybe then you wont imagine I posted things I didn’t post.   

Case in point, I’ve proven that the vast majority of the deficit is revenue destruction but you rant and rave that spending is out of control.   Your ideology says its out of control not the facts.   

Online Solar

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Re: sadly he wont
« Reply #77 on: February 01, 2013, 09:34:10 AM »
question A. depends on how much.  The current deficits are too much. 

question B  no.   
Now, was that so hard? You refused to accept it because it exposes your messiah, but oncew the phrasing is changed and doesn't include Husein, you answer honestly.
What is it with you libs and your unwillingness to place any blame on him whatsoever?

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now will you stop fixating on me and demanding I agree with your factless non thread related rhetoric? Fixate on the facts I post then maybe then you wont imagine I posted things I didn’t post.   
You see, there's the problem, you danced all around the issue, trying to blame one person, rather than accept the fact that both party's are to blame for this mess, and yes, Bush is equally culpable as the left, though personally I believe the left hold the majority of blame, but it takes two to create a mess years in the making by micromanaging a free mkt process.
Case in point, I’ve proven that the vast majority of the deficit is revenue destruction but you rant and rave that spending is out of control.   Your ideology says its out of control not the facts.
Wrong! It's both, you can't have revenue destruction if you have no debt. You can try, but investors will still invest in the dollar regardless.
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Offline Vern

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Re: the "supposed" fiscal cliff
« Reply #78 on: February 01, 2013, 10:41:03 AM »
no solar, it wasnt hard to answer it again and again.  .  I dont understand your fixation on me.  Lets hope you can know focus on the actual facts.


but oncew the phrasing is changed and doesn't include Husein, you answer honestly.
 

sorry solar for somebody
who claimed I said something I didnt
who claimed they didnt ask a question they did
who whined when I ignored their loaded question and then only answered it because they cowardly threatened to kick me off the board and then pretended I didnt answer it

you are a poor judge of whats honest. 

Online Solar

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Re: the "supposed" fiscal cliff
« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2013, 11:18:38 AM »
no solar, it wasnt hard to answer it again and again.  .  I dont understand your fixation on me.  Lets hope you can know focus on the actual facts.


sorry solar for somebody
who claimed I said something I didnt
who claimed they didnt ask a question they did
who whined when I ignored their loaded question and then only answered it because they cowardly threatened to kick me off the board and then pretended I didnt answer it

you are a poor judge of whats honest.
Wrong son, you are purposefully being vague, and on this forum, that shit don't fly.
Blaming one person for the mess both party's are responsible for is either ignorant or simply lying.
Take a stance, admit Husein can do no wrong, he even claimed he ended the recession, so from that point forward he owns this mess, a mess that is increasingly getting worse.

Just look at the employment figures, yet he is still spending more than he is taking in, in anyone's book, that is a path to destruction, and yes, as I said before, he is destroying industry, industry that is one of the major producers in the country.
How is any of that good in your view?
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Offline supsalemgr

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Re: the "supposed" fiscal cliff
« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2013, 11:46:18 AM »
Wrong son, you are purposefully being vague, and on this forum, that shit don't fly.
Blaming one person for the mess both party's are responsible for is either ignorant or simply lying.
Take a stance, admit Husein can do no wrong, he even claimed he ended the recession, so from that point forward he owns this mess, a mess that is increasingly getting worse.

Just look at the employment figures, yet he is still spending more than he is taking in, in anyone's book, that is a path to destruction, and yes, as I said before, he is destroying industry, industry that is one of the major producers in the country.
How is any of that good in your view?

"he even claimed he ended the recession"

Yes, he has claimed that. Therefore, anything that has gone on since is his. So if the Q1/2013 is negative then the next recession is certainly his. I know it is a little off point, but I thought Solar really swerved into a good point with that comment.
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Online Solar

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Re: the "supposed" fiscal cliff
« Reply #81 on: February 01, 2013, 12:22:05 PM »
"he even claimed he ended the recession"

Yes, he has claimed that. Therefore, anything that has gone on since is his. So if the Q1/2013 is negative then the next recession is certainly his. I know it is a little off point, but I thought Solar really swerved into a good point with that comment.

Thanks, but he doesn't want to accept reality, he prefers to live in the past and blame Bush for all our ills. :laugh:

And more dismal news, unless you listen to the media tout is as growth. :rolleyes:

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Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rates for adult men (7.3 percent), adult women (7.3 percent), teenagers (23.4 percent), whites (7.0 percent), blacks (13.8 percent), and Hispanics (9.7 percent) showed little or no change in January. The jobless rate for Asians was 6.5 percent (not seasonally adjusted), little changed from a year earlier.

In January, the number of long-term unemployed (those jobless for 27 weeks or more) was about unchanged at 4.7 million and accounted for 38.1 percent of the unemployed.

LOL, imagine that, people getting free money not working, so it ain't so? :rolleyes:

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A bright spot is mining employment, which increased (+6,000) over the month; employment in this industry has risen by 23,000 over the past 3 months.

And if not for the private sector and private land, this would not have occurred under this administration.

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Employment edged down in transportation and warehousing in January (-14,000). Couriers and messengers lost 19,000 jobs over the month, following strong seasonal hiring in
November and December. Air transportation employment decreased by 5,000 in January.

Shocked, I'm shocked I tell ya...[sarc off]

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
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Offline Vern

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its not straightforward, should have said "first hill on a roller coaster"
« Reply #82 on: February 01, 2013, 02:27:47 PM »
Wrong son, you are purposefully being vague, and on this forum, that shit don't fly.
Blaming one person for the mess both party's are responsible for is either ignorant or simply lying.
Take a stance, admit Husein can do no wrong, he even claimed he ended the recession, so from that point forward he owns this mess, a mess that is increasingly getting worse.

Just look at the employment figures, yet he is still spending more than he is taking in, in anyone's book, that is a path to destruction, and yes, as I said before, he is destroying industry, industry that is one of the major producers in the country.
How is any of that good in your view?


what a mish mosh of delusional BS. I make clear points and I back them up.  For instance,  I documented the Bush policies from 2004 that encouraged funded and protected the Bush Mortgage Bubble. I've pointed out that bush's regulators not only didnt stop it, they encourgaged the banks to lower their lending standards.  Bush controlled the regulators. He's responsible.  to call that vague is beyond delusional.   Tell us about that "dim bill' you vaguely referred to.

President Obama ended the recession.  the dates are documented. It ended May 2009.  who knows what you believe because you've only mocked my statements. talk about vague.   

to say "a mess that is increasing getting worse" is only empty rhetoric and laughable.  And of course vague.  You want to complain about UE, go right ahead. And to scream we need to cut 1.1 trillion in spending in one thread and then complain about UE in this thread show an incredible lack of knowledge.  Here's a better link for UE. It has a graph. When does it look like UE started shooting up like a rocket?  (2 things. That is a straightforward question and I dont expect you to answer.) 

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

Yes President Obama is spending more than he takes in. I've also clearly documented the effect of the Great Bush Recession's effect on revenue and spending.   

Do what I do. make a point and back it up.  If you dispute something I've said. dont 'paraphrase it'. cut and paste it and attempt to explain why its not true. You ranting that is not true proves nothing.

Offline kramarat

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Re: its not straightforward, should have said "first hill on a roller coaster"
« Reply #83 on: February 01, 2013, 03:11:54 PM »
what a mish mosh of delusional BS. I make clear points and I back them up.  For instance,  I documented the Bush policies from 2004 that encouraged funded and protected the Bush Mortgage Bubble. I've pointed out that bush's regulators not only didnt stop it, they encourgaged the banks to lower their lending standards.  Bush controlled the regulators. He's responsible.  to call that vague is beyond delusional.   Tell us about that "dim bill' you vaguely referred to.

President Obama ended the recession.  the dates are documented. It ended May 2009.  who knows what you believe because you've only mocked my statements. talk about vague.   

to say "a mess that is increasing getting worse" is only empty rhetoric and laughable.  And of course vague.  You want to complain about UE, go right ahead. And to scream we need to cut 1.1 trillion in spending in one thread and then complain about UE in this thread show an incredible lack of knowledge.  Here's a better link for UE. It has a graph. When does it look like UE started shooting up like a rocket?  (2 things. That is a straightforward question and I dont expect you to answer.) 

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

Yes President Obama is spending more than he takes in. I've also clearly documented the effect of the Great Bush Recession's effect on revenue and spending.   

Do what I do. make a point and back it up.  If you dispute something I've said. dont 'paraphrase it'. cut and paste it and attempt to explain why its not true. You ranting that is not true proves nothing.


Am I missing something?
It looks like UE shot up after Obama took power. :confused:

He was sworn in, in Jan of 09 right?

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2003 5.8 5.9 5.9 6.0 6.1 6.3 6.2 6.1 6.1 6.0 5.8 5.7   
2004 5.7 5.6 5.8 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.5 5.4 5.4 5.5 5.4 5.4   
2005 5.3 5.4 5.2 5.2 5.1 5.0 5.0 4.9 5.0 5.0 5.0 4.9   
2006 4.7 4.8 4.7 4.7 4.6 4.6 4.7 4.7 4.5 4.4 4.5 4.4   
2007 4.6 4.5 4.4 4.5 4.4 4.6 4.7 4.6 4.7 4.7 4.7 5.0   
2008 5.0 4.9 5.1 5.0 5.4 5.6 5.8 6.1 6.1 6.5 6.8 7.3   
2009 7.8 8.3 8.7 9.0 9.4 9.5 9.5 9.6 9.8 10.0 9.9 9.9   
2010 9.8 9.8 9.9 9.9 9.6 9.4 9.5 9.5 9.5 9.5 9.8 9.3   
2011 9.1 9.0 8.9 9.0 9.0 9.1 9.0 9.0 9.0 8.9 8.6 8.5   
2012 8.3 8.3 8.2 8.1 8.2 8.2 8.2 8.1 7.8 7.9 7.8 7.8   
2013 7.9                       
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 03:16:30 PM by kramarat »

Offline Vern

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sorry if I err on the side of TMI
« Reply #84 on: February 01, 2013, 05:10:02 PM »
Am I missing something?
It looks like UE shot up after Obama took power. :confused:


honestly kram,  it doesnt look like UE started shooting up before he took over? I find your answer less than truthful.  It was 4.7 in Nov 2007.It was fairly flat early 2008 but Bush did mail out a stimulus check.  Started creeping up in the summer then kinda shot up q4.   

Here's a link showing job losses.  sure looks like its shooting up before Jan 2009.  And it is really fair to count Jan? Shouldnt we put Jan in Bush's column.  An honest person wouldn't start counting until he actually implemented a policy or something. 

Jan - Aug 2008 job losses: 137 k per month
Oct - Sept 2008 job losses: 351 k per month
Nov - Dec 2008 job losses: 639 k per month

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2009/03/art2full.pdf

"Employment declined by 753,000, on average, during each of the first 3 months of the year. Between April and June,"

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2010/03/art2full.pdf

Online Solar

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Re: its not straightforward, should have said "first hill on a roller coaster"
« Reply #85 on: February 01, 2013, 06:20:50 PM »
what a mish mosh of delusional BS. I make clear points and I back them up.  For instance,  I documented the Bush policies from 2004 that encouraged funded and protected the Bush Mortgage Bubble. I've pointed out that bush's regulators not only didnt stop it, they encourgaged the banks to lower their lending standards.  Bush controlled the regulators. He's responsible.  to call that vague is beyond delusional.   Tell us about that "dim bill' you vaguely referred to.

President Obama ended the recession.  the dates are documented. It ended May 2009.  who knows what you believe because you've only mocked my statements. talk about vague.   
Oh jeez, do you have a comprehension issue?
I said:
Take a stance, admit Husein can do no wrong, he even claimed he ended the recession, so from that point forward he owns this mess, a mess that is increasingly getting worse."
Quote
to say "a mess that is increasing getting worse" is only empty rhetoric and laughable.  And of course vague.  You want to complain about UE, go right ahead. And to scream we need to cut 1.1 trillion in spending in one thread and then complain about UE in this thread show an incredible lack of knowledge.  Here's a better link for UE. It has a graph. When does it look like UE started shooting up like a rocket?  (2 things. That is a straightforward question and I dont expect you to answer.)
 
Seriously, are you really that biased and delusional?
The UE numbers show it's rising again, more people on food stamps than at anytime in history, gas on the rise again.
Shall I go on?

Quote
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

Yes President Obama is spending more than he takes in. I've also clearly documented the effect of the Great Bush Recession's effect on revenue and spending.   

Do what I do. make a point and back it up.  If you dispute something I've said. dont 'paraphrase it'. cut and paste it and attempt to explain why its not true. You ranting that is not true proves nothing.

And that's your argument, that it's all Bush's fault? :rolleyes:

What a load of shit! Posting a link by the Govt to show revision of the previous POTUS is exactly what I would expect from this regime.
Monthly Labor Review • March 2009 That should read Revision...
Case in point, read the Bush admin narrative and compare yours to this one, and note yours
 makes quite clear a recession occurred, yet while under Bush there was no mention of a recession.

I'm not saying your link is wrong, and mine is right, what I'm saying is both are twisting and spinning the numbers to their own benefit.
Just reading the opening statement of both should prove my point, Bush admin is doing a bit of glossing, while Husein admin is doing a lot of finger point.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art2full.pdf
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Offline kramarat

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Re: sorry if I err on the side of TMI
« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2013, 07:35:03 PM »
honestly kram,  it doesnt look like UE started shooting up before he took over? I find your answer less than truthful.  It was 4.7 in Nov 2007.It was fairly flat early 2008 but Bush did mail out a stimulus check.  Started creeping up in the summer then kinda shot up q4.   

Here's a link showing job losses.  sure looks like its shooting up before Jan 2009.  And it is really fair to count Jan? Shouldnt we put Jan in Bush's column.  An honest person wouldn't start counting until he actually implemented a policy or something. 

Jan - Aug 2008 job losses: 137 k per month
Oct - Sept 2008 job losses: 351 k per month
Nov - Dec 2008 job losses: 639 k per month

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2009/03/art2full.pdf

"Employment declined by 753,000, on average, during each of the first 3 months of the year. Between April and June,"

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2010/03/art2full.pdf


Well, I've conceded several times that Bush was far less than perfect. But there ain't a damned thing you can say or do to prove that Obama is not worse.

Besides, democrats have had substantial, (if not full), control since 2006. Blaming it all on Bush is losing steam fast. :wink:

Offline Vern

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its actually 2007 but a minor point
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2013, 05:12:40 AM »
Well, I've conceded several times that Bush was far less than perfect. But there ain't a damned thing you can say or do to prove that Obama is not worse.

Besides, democrats have had substantial, (if not full), control since 2006. Blaming it all on Bush is losing steam fast. :wink:


Some one brought up UE as proof of something.  Fine, lets discuss UE.  But you cant discuss UE unless you discuss the causes. So (honestly) when does it look like UE started shooting up?  So for you guys to rant that I'm just blaming bush is just your attempt to ignore the facts.  Whining dont change the facts. 

GDP__Q__year
-1.8__1__2008
+1.3__2__2008
-3.7__3__2008
-8.9__4__2008

http://www.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?ReqID=9&step=1

 you saw UE, you saw job losses now you see GDP.  Looks like the economy fell off a cliff Q4.  Why did the recession accelerate to depression esque levels?

"Lehman's collapse was a seminal event that greatly intensified the 2008 crisis and contributed to the erosion of close to $10 trillion in market capitalization from global equity markets in October 2008, the biggest monthly decline on record at the time"

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/09/lehman-brothers-collapse.asp#axzz1Yy6SIL3c



 

Offline kramarat

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Re: its actually 2007 but a minor point
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2013, 05:25:55 AM »
Some one brought up UE as proof of something.  Fine, lets discuss UE.  But you cant discuss UE unless you discuss the causes. So (honestly) when does it look like UE started shooting up?  So for you guys to rant that I'm just blaming bush is just your attempt to ignore the facts.  Whining dont change the facts. 

GDP__Q__year
-1.8__1__2008
+1.3__2__2008
-3.7__3__2008
-8.9__4__2008

http://www.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?ReqID=9&step=1

 you saw UE, you saw job losses now you see GDP.  Looks like the economy fell off a cliff Q4.  Why did the recession accelerate to depression esque levels?

"Lehman's collapse was a seminal event that greatly intensified the 2008 crisis and contributed to the erosion of close to $10 trillion in market capitalization from global equity markets in October 2008, the biggest monthly decline on record at the time"

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/09/lehman-brothers-collapse.asp#axzz1Yy6SIL3c



 


You really should check out this site I posted earlier.
Nothing is what it seems.

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts

More here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/10/11/obamas-real-unemployment-rate-is-14-7-and-a-recessions-on-the-way/

You might as well start bracing yourself now. It's getting very difficult to present this as great news...........even the mainstream media is having difficulty doing it.

Offline Vern

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Some people learned a lesson about letting things fail
« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2013, 05:32:05 AM »
the funny thing is "you saying Obama is worse" kinda lends itself to me proving otherwise in a forum.  Which in turn upsets everybody.  So what you are saying is you have an opinon and you dont want any facts getting in the way.  Wait thats exactly what you said

But there ain't a damned thing you can say or do to prove that Obama is not worse.


So back to the facts.  The recession is getting worse.  We've bailed out the GSEs. We're bailing out the banks.   When Bush/Paulson let Lehman fail, we all cheered.  Now I have nothing but respect for Hank Paulson when but Lehman failed rich people panicked.  Money flooded out of the market.   it seems rich people didnt have the same "way to stick it to Lehman" attitude we did.  Now the Financial Commission tries to spin it was not just Bush's Lehman policy but it fails to convince

"The crisis reached seismic proportions in September with the failure of Lehman Brothers and the impending collapse of the insurance giant American International Group (AIG). Panic fanned by a lack of transparency of the balance sheets of major financial institutions, coupled with a tangle of interconnections among institutions perceived to be “too big to fail,” caused the credit markets to seize up. Trading ground to a halt. The stock market plummeted. The economy plunged into a deep recession."

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/fcic/fcic.pdf

and that pretty much explains why AIG's counterparties got 100 % on the dollar for their investments.  They were trying to put the horses back in the barn. 


 

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