Seattle minimum-wage hike did nothing for workers

Started by tac, July 30, 2016, 06:12:57 AM

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taxed

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 30, 2016, 04:35:35 PM

Hot Air is a conservative American political blog. It is written by the pseudonymous Allahpundit, Ed Morrissey, Mary Katharine Ham, Erika Johnsen, and Jazz Shaw on the weekends.
-Wikipedia.
I'm sure you have a point, but if you didn't care to make it, then it wasn't that important in the first place.

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not counting that the source is less than ...I don't even know what to say its like asking your drunk uncle Ned what he thinks about minimum wage....ok....
Drunks and uncles can be business owners.

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I know several HR people in Seattle area and their businesses have had about zero impact with this.
Did you read the study, or are you pretending that hotair did the study?  You may have missed it, since the link to the study was in the article.  Also, HR people don't really know anything about business, overall.

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Now, I don't know if $15 is the number it seems random but I do know if we look back to 1968 and adjust for inflation the number we get today is about $11.00 which is where my state also is headed this year and even though the CPI is made up at least I can appreciate the effort to tie this to some logical number because $7.25 is stupid for the United States of America.
One of the businesses I owned provided labor analysis for industrial manufacturing companies as part of our service.  We broke down the labor costs, CPU of the products, etc.  Minimum wage is a job and productivity killer is an established fact to anyone who actually has spent any amount of real world time looking at it.  For example, one thing economic illiterates don't seem to grasp is when the cost of the labor goes up, so does the cost of the product.  That product becomes more expensive to everybody.  It's a very simple, basic concept that anyone who has at least run a lemonade stand can understand, yet liberals don't seem to understand it.

When doing cost analysis and getting into the meat of the businesses, HR people weren't really in on the meetings.  They were busy chasing people down to make sure they partook in their liberal-mandated sexual harassment classes or some other BS that has nothing to do with business.

Minimum wage hurts everyone, not just businesses.  Fact.

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lets look at the economics.
Finally...

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  When someone making minimum wage gets a wage what happens?
Do you mean before or after the raise?  If I talk about Bob before the raise, there's a chance Bob won't be around after the raise.  So, I assume you mean after the raise.

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  THEY SPEND IT!!!
Funny.  This is what we try and tell Keynesians.  We say people spend their own money, and that benefits businesses who provide products and services.  My question to you is how could they spend it without government?  Are you saying the just go to a store and buy stuff?

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  Almost all people living on their own making minimum wage SPEND ALL THEIR MONEY just to live!
They should make more money.

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And that money goes DIRECTLY into the economy consuming something...products, services, something...and it creates demand which creates JOBS.
Whoa..... hold up Milton Friedman.....  It sounds like you believe in capitalism!  See how easy that is?

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raising the minimum wage in a MODERATE manner will GROW our economy for all of us.
It destroys the economy.  It forces business to lay people off, prevent opportunities for unskilled entry level workers, and forces price increases.

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FAct is you guys have a choice to make, either belly up to the bar and start to discuss these things and find some common ground (with US) or keep hitting yourselves in the head getting angrier and angrier... because the nation is moving ahead with or without you...and we are not going back to 1850 or even 1950.
Don't confuse the GOP hosing us conservatives as somehow a validation of false economics.  Unfortunately for Marxists and liberals, economics is its own reality.  Capitialism works the same way now between two parties as it did when caveman A was trying to sell caveman B a rock.

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so you have a long future of political defeats if your strategy is to cling to immovability on anything and everything.
We're ready for Hillary.  We have mid-terms, and she'll be up in 4 years.  We survived 8 years of Hussein, we can do another 4 of Hillary while rebuilding.

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The world is different than the man behind the curtain is telling you.  And together we can accomplish great things.  But alone, you will be complaining about everything for a long time to come.  Unless this is what you want.  In that case, forget everything I just said because it wont matter anyway.
The problem is you're not speaking from a point of education or experience.  You're parroting what other do-nothing academics tell you.  Those of us from the business world know better.

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I'm just saying. 


Enjoy the weekend its a great time to be an American!!!
Then stop trying to turn us into the Soviet Union.
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Solar

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 30, 2016, 04:35:35 PM
raising the minimum wage in a MODERATE manner will GROW our economy for all of us.

Based on this quote, it's obvious you recognize the damaging effects of hiking wages, or you'd literally double the hike, or even quadruple it.
If I came to you and told you I was cutting your salary by 10%, how would it affect you?
That's what the business owner experiences, especially the mom and pop stores living from month to month, only keeping the endeavor alive because of a personal responsibility to their family of employees.

Yes, these people are family to the shop owner because they work side by side with these people everyday of their life, there is no adversarial relationship, as the left tries to portray, if there was, they'd simply replace the employee with one they can get along with.
Point is, you're not seeing the true picture, big business and corporations will simply pass along the cost of increased wages to the consumer, in turn raising the cost of living for everyone, while the small business owner either closes their doors or lays people off.
"GROW our economy for all of us"?....you're too funny...

No one is holding a gun to people's heads to work at low paying jobs, they were never meant to be a permanent position, they are entry level, just above intern level of no pay, where it opens doors, trains people to enter the job mkt.
The lower the wage, the better for people less desirable to employers, these people are given a chance to prove themselves, get raises, build their self esteem, but you libs, notoriously want to remove the human nature aspect from the job mkt, where one takes pride in getting a raise, no, you'd rather punish the person supplying the job.
So much for carrot, stick, instead, govt does it through force, backed by the gun.
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walkstall

Quote from: Solar on July 31, 2016, 11:11:36 AM
Yes, these people are family to the shop owner because they work side by side with these people everyday of their life, there is no adversarial relationship, as the left tries to portray, if there was, they'd simply replace the employee with one they can get along with.

Yes they are family to the mom and pops. Also you must remember all the people that the mom and pop stores carry on the books for weeks and months at a time at no charge.  I remember one mom and pops store down the street from us.  A very well to do man would come in about every three months and give him money to use for people that he knew could not begin to pay all there bill each month.  So when the people came in and ask how much do I own you?  He would tell them much less than what they owed. 

The man that did this was know a one of the cheapest SOB in town.   :lol:  He did not wish for people to know what he was doing.  As he was making sure the people that need it got it.  But then that was over 70+ years back.
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

taxed

Quote from: Solar on July 31, 2016, 11:11:36 AM
Based on this quote, it's obvious you recognize the damaging effects of hiking wages, or you'd literally double the hike, or even quadruple it.

I forgot about this one:

http://conservativehardliner.com/why-republican-favor-minimum-wage

QuoteLike any liberal position, it is easily destroyed with reality and common sense.  Ask a liberal why the minimum wage shouldn't be $100.  Their response is always an agreement as to why a minimum wage is destructive in the first place.  Their feelings makes them think $15 per hour is better than $100 per hour, just because it feels like it is more feasible.  Since the logic faculties of these kids and academics are so damaged, they don't understand how any increase in labor costs increases the costs of products and services and throws supply and demand and the free market out of whack.  Their Marxist programming always defaults to a retort about how the business owner should absorb the cost with no regard to the business owner's labor or risk.
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Hoofer

Quote from: walkstall on July 31, 2016, 11:35:09 AM
Yes they are family to the mom and pops. Also you must remember all the people that the mom and pop stores carry on the books for weeks and months at a time at no charge.  I remember one mom and pops store down the street from us.  A very well to do man would come in about every three months and give him money to use for people that he knew could not begin to pay all there bill each month.  So when the people came in and ask how much do I own you?  He would tell them much less than what they owed. 

The man that did this was know a one of the cheapest SOB in town.   :lol:  He did not wish for people to know what he was doing.  As he was making sure the people that need it got it.  But then that was over 70+ years back.

They still walk among us today...  sometimes preferred to be called a tightwad, or maligned than exposed.
Privacy and the sweetness of a clear conscience, knowing you did a good thing, without strings or favor - brings an exceeding joy & peace to your heart.  Oddly enough, they're also called "Conservatives", "Christians", and "True Americans".

The other kind, who toot-their-horn and account for every penny given, have their reward, everyone knows who-they-are, they are literally "buying respect", "buying praise" - usually with someone else's money.  Strange as it may sound, they are called "Liberals", "Thieves" and "Communists" - they always want play "Santa" with someone else's stuff.  They still slink among us, like the snakes they are.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Solar

Quote from: taxed on July 31, 2016, 12:17:35 PM
I forgot about this one:

http://conservativehardliner.com/why-republican-favor-minimum-wage
I think they actually believe business simply absorbs the cost, as if every small business owner is some rich, greedy SOB that sees employees as slaves he can rip off.
Ya know, libs are always claiming it's us, who never compromise, but if that's the case, why in the Hell is it always the left demanding destructive change?

I have a compromising proposal, but it is they who never offer compromise, rather that we accept their demands.
My proposal is a super low entry level of pay, of say 6 bucks an hr for six months as needed for training, if after 3 months the employee is still with the company, they be guaranteed full time pay at the 6 month mark with full employment.
The employee continues their training, with incentive, and the employer isn't being forced to lay off other employees while gambling on a rookie that may never workout.

Sure, there will be rules to accompany such laws guaranteeing firms don't abuse employees and illegally fire them before probation is up, but something like this needs to be incorporated if the left keeps abusing employers.
We need incentive to hire people, over the threat of a gun, or we'll simply close up shop, but then, sadly, that's the long term plan of leftist elites, eliminate private employment.

Granted, this is not the rule, rather a guideline for the absolute minimum, the employer is always given the option to pay more to incentivise the new hire, even a shorter training period, kind of the way it used to be, where people wrote their own agreement with the employer, because some were worth more than others, and some not, due to limited abilities.
But all could be gainfully employed without govt interference.
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Solar

Quote from: Hoofer on July 31, 2016, 01:02:06 PM
They still walk among us today...  sometimes preferred to be called a tightwad, or maligned than exposed.
Privacy and the sweetness of a clear conscience, knowing you did a good thing, without strings or favor - brings an exceeding joy & peace to your heart.  Oddly enough, they're also called "Conservatives", "Christians", and "True Americans".

The other kind, who toot-their-horn and account for every penny given, have their reward, everyone knows who-they-are, they are literally "buying respect", "buying praise" - usually with someone else's money.  Strange as it may sound, they are called "Liberals", "Thieves" and "Communists" - they always want play "Santa" with someone else's stuff.  They still slink among us, like the snakes they are.
Exactly! Doing the Right thing when no one is looking is a solid Conservative trait.
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Hoofer

Quote from: Solar on July 31, 2016, 01:17:29 PM
I think they actually believe business simply absorbs the cost, as if every small business owner is some rich, greedy SOB that sees employees as slaves he can rip off.
Ya know, libs are always claiming it's us, who never compromise, but if that's the case, why in the Hell is it always the left demanding destructive change?

I have a compromising proposal, but it is they who never offer compromise, rather that we accept their demands.
My proposal is a super low entry level of pay, of say 6 bucks an hr for six months as needed for training, if after 3 months the employee is still with the company, they be guaranteed full time pay at the 6 month mark with full employment.
The employee continues their training, with incentive, and the employer isn't being forced to lay off other employees while gambling on a rookie that may never workout.

Sure, there will be rules to accompany such laws guaranteeing firms don't abuse employees and illegally fire them before probation is up, but something like this needs to be incorporated if the left keeps abusing employers.
We need incentive to hire people, over the threat of a gun, or we'll simply close up shop, but then, sadly, that's the long term plan of leftist elites, eliminate private employment.

Granted, this is not the rule, rather a guideline for the absolute minimum, the employer is always given the option to pay more to incentivise the new hire, even a shorter training period, kind of the way it used to be, where people wrote their own agreement with the employer, because some were worth more than others, and some not, due to limited abilities.
But all could be gainfully employed without govt interference.

You've just described the "Internship" my son just completed at a local bank's IT department.
He proved his worth at a low wage rate, now he has a full time job, with benefits -and- they are paying for the rest of his college education.  Still not a livable wage, but with a degree and a couple of years of experience in hand, they know he's worth paying well to keep long term.

They told me he replaces 2-3 other Interns in speed and efficiency.  He's thankful they took a chance giving him an Internship.  When I introduced him to the bank, I suggested they pay him NOTHING, just give him the experience, let him learn & prove himself.  ...they did say I was old-fashioned, but had to pay him something.

I fear this Trump plan of "equal-pay-for-equal-work" stuff will destroy incentive to excel at all levels of work.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Solar

Quote from: Hoofer on July 31, 2016, 01:49:51 PM
You've just described the "Internship" my son just completed at a local bank's IT department.
He proved his worth at a low wage rate, now he has a full time job, with benefits -and- they are paying for the rest of his college education.  Still not a livable wage, but with a degree and a couple of years of experience in hand, they know he's worth paying well to keep long term.

They told me he replaces 2-3 other Interns in speed and efficiency.  He's thankful they took a chance giving him an Internship.  When I introduced him to the bank, I suggested they pay him NOTHING, just give him the experience, let him learn & prove himself.  ...they did say I was old-fashioned, but had to pay him something.

I fear this Trump plan of "equal-pay-for-equal-work" stuff will destroy incentive to excel at all levels of work.
Yep, had this plan been in place when I was an employer, I'd have doubled my workforce, seriously, as would nearly every small business owner.
Could you just imagine walking into a small business and finding employees wandering the aisles looking to help someone?
As well as a theft deterrent, in turn, lowering the price of products due to less "shrinkage".
Just being able to get help is a time saver (think Home Despot), across the board, more productivity, more people employed, less theft, more free time in the day.
Sure, some of it is minimal, but employing people would be a huge boon to the economy, as opposed to forced raises to the least deserving in the workforce.

How can one reason against any of that?
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Steve,SPHR

Quote from: Solar on July 31, 2016, 02:00:39 PM
Yep, had this plan been in place when I was an employer, I'd have doubled my workforce, seriously, as would nearly every small business owner.
Could you just imagine walking into a small business and finding employees wandering the aisles looking to help someone?
As well as a theft deterrent, in turn, lowering the price of products due to less "shrinkage".
Just being able to get help is a time saver (think Home Despot), across the board, more productivity, more people employed, less theft, more free time in the day.
Sure, some of it is minimal, but employing people would be a huge boon to the economy, as opposed to forced raises to the least deserving in the workforce.

How can one reason against any of that?


Indentured servitude is why we find ourselves in this predicament to begin with.


doubling down on it will not change the direction.


Finding worker's at all levels as is part of my charge, today with an unemployment rate of 4.5% in my state does not support such a theory.


Further, even IF we had to increase our minimum wage to $15 which I do not support right off the bat except in regional areas like New York City where it may be warranted, it would impact about 1% to a company's bottom line.


The math simply does not support the argument aganst this.  Arguing against an EQUITABLE minimum wage is a fabrication.  Economically paying the lowest earners makes economic sense because they will SPEND it directly into the economy while the higher earners will SAVE it offering NO impact to the economy.

why would we something so a$$ backwards???

"It always seems impossible until it's done."

― Nelson Mandela

It can be done.  If you want to.

Solar

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 31, 2016, 04:01:59 PM

Indentured servitude is why we find ourselves in this predicament to begin with.


doubling down on it will not change the direction.


Finding worker's at all levels as is part of my charge, today with an unemployment rate of 4.5% in my state does not support such a theory.


Further, even IF we had to increase our minimum wage to $15 which I do not support right off the bat except in regional areas like New York City where it may be warranted, it would impact about 1% to a company's bottom line.


The math simply does not support the argument aganst this.  Arguing against an EQUITABLE minimum wage is a fabrication.  Economically paying the lowest earners makes economic sense because they will SPEND it directly into the economy while the higher earners will SAVE it offering NO impact to the economy.

why would we something so a$$ backwards???
No, no ,no, you don't get off that easy! Start with my first response and work forward.
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Steve,SPHR

Quote from: Solar on July 31, 2016, 04:10:50 PM
No, no ,no, you don't get off that easy! Start with my first response and work forward.


Your first response?  You mean your $6/hour idea for an introductory period etc.?


I can see some good things in your proposal barring the undoable low pay rate. 


The way I see this is if you and I were put in a room and charged with coming up with a solution to find 100 new unskilled employees for a new factory in <some location> I know I could work with your ideas. (though they would require significant modifications)


But you don't seem willing at all to work with mine. And that is a deal breaker.  Your inflexible stance makes any solution impossible.


That is disappointing.  Because I am certain the solution to our government problems of debt, size and even encroachment on individual freedom is NOT that complicated but if we cannot work together we will continue to be at war, philosophically.


If we work together there is no doubt we can easily solve the fiscal problems of this country.

"It always seems impossible until it's done."

― Nelson Mandela

It can be done.  If you want to.

taxed

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 31, 2016, 04:01:59 PM

Indentured servitude is why we find ourselves in this predicament to begin with.


doubling down on it will not change the direction.


Finding worker's at all levels as is part of my charge, today with an unemployment rate of 4.5% in my state does not support such a theory.


Further, even IF we had to increase our minimum wage to $15 which I do not support right off the bat except in regional areas like New York City where it may be warranted, it would impact about 1% to a company's bottom line.


The math simply does not support the argument aganst this.  Arguing against an EQUITABLE minimum wage is a fabrication.  Economically paying the lowest earners makes economic sense because they will SPEND it directly into the economy while the higher earners will SAVE it offering NO impact to the economy.

why would we something so a$$ backwards???

Are you saying saving money is bad for the economy?
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Steve,SPHR

Quote from: taxed on July 31, 2016, 05:38:05 PM
Are you saying saving money is bad for the economy?


taxed you have offered some attempt at dialogue and debate even though you have refused to acknowledge ANYTHING I have said has had ANY value.


like now.


no taxed that is not what I said.  Again if you are being intentionally obtuse ok LOLhahaha.


but if your question is legitimate ...I honestly cant belive you don't know this.


and I am reluctant to insult your intelligence.

I really would appreciate it if you would stop insulting mine.


Thank you.




:biggrin:
"It always seems impossible until it's done."

― Nelson Mandela

It can be done.  If you want to.

Solar

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 31, 2016, 05:05:22 PM

Your first response?  You mean your $6/hour idea for an introductory period etc.?


I can see some good things in your proposal barring the undoable low pay rate. 


The way I see this is if you and I were put in a room and charged with coming up with a solution to find 100 new unskilled employees for a new factory in <some location> I know I could work with your ideas. (though they would require significant modifications)


But you don't seem willing at all to work with mine. And that is a deal breaker.  Your inflexible stance makes any solution impossible.


That is disappointing.  Because I am certain the solution to our government problems of debt, size and even encroachment on individual freedom is NOT that complicated but if we cannot work together we will continue to be at war, philosophically.


If we work together there is no doubt we can easily solve the fiscal problems of this country.
Nope, back up.
Reply #13 But I will get to this larter.
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