Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 18, 2016, 05:41:26 AM

For example under Kensyian Economics during times of recession the private sector purges jobs to reduce costs, I believe the government should pump money into the system and expand to provide jobs to the displaced does not even matter what because these people will spend this money directly back into the economy which will create consumption, consumption will create demand demand will create more jobs.

Then as the private sector starts hiring again government should eliminate these gvt jobs and shrink.

I think we have seen the spending and growing does help the economy but we are terrible at the shrinking part and for Kensyian Economics to work we need gvt to shrink when gvt is supposed to shrink.  That last part never seems to happen.

That is one way to use government for the benefit of the people.  IMO.  If we do it right that is.

What is wrong with a business cutting their workforce?

Quote from: taxed on July 18, 2016, 06:43:25 PM
What is wrong with a business cutting their workforce?

nothing is wrong with a business cutting their workforce.


But we need to realize those people getting cut lose a lot of saved wealth they will never get back if we don't have programs to help them pay their bills until they find other income.

Because at the end of the day, if these people lose their homes, their 401ks, their bank accounts WE end up paying for it!

And that costs all of us a lot more.

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 19, 2016, 05:33:13 AM
nothing is wrong with a business cutting their workforce.


But we need to realize those people getting cut lose a lot of saved wealth they will never get back if we don't have programs to help them pay their bills until they find other income.

Because at the end of the day, if these people lose their homes, their 401ks, their bank accounts WE end up paying for it!

And that costs all of us a lot more.

OK, there's a serious disconnect from reality here.
Life simply isn't fair, govt is not in the business of creating jobs, no matter how much the left claim.
No, wealth creation is left to the individual, they alone are in control of their own destiny, whether it's a menial job, or slaving on a production line, they have the option to create jobs for others as well.
But that's not how the left sees it, they have given over to big brother to right all wrongs they perceive to be brought on by Capitalism.

You may want to give serious thought to all of this and make a decision as to who is the impediment, govt or Capitalism?

Quote from: Solar on July 19, 2016, 06:01:01 AM
OK, there's a serious disconnect from reality here.
Life simply isn't fair, govt is not in the business of creating jobs, no matter how much the left claim.
No, wealth creation is left to the individual, they alone are in control of their own destiny, whether it's a menial job, or slaving on a production line, they have the option to create jobs for others as well.
But that's not how the left sees it, they have given over to big brother to right all wrongs they perceive to be brought on by Capitalism.

You may want to give serious thought to all of this and make a decision as to who is the impediment, govt or Capitalism?

Capitalism defeinetly.

Anytime we have any system in its purest form it will eat its own head because the wealth naturally gravitates to a small percent and the more powerful they get the more control they have over the weaker players.

No, we have seen this repeat several time in just the last 100 years capitalism causes crises and that destroys wealth of those least able to afford to lose it devasting families for decades, which is why we needed Government to step in to correct the trajectory.  Because when things blow up private sector retreats into their bunkers.  Just the opposite of what is needed.

To be truly successful we need a mix of both Capialism and Socialism and this mix will ebb and flow based on the economy, only in this way do we get the best result which is spreading wealth to more people while still providing for unlimited growth to those successful business owners.

Because at the end of the day the more poor we have the more it costs all of us.  So while we may think we are winning because of our own personal success or that of the circle we travel in, we are actually paying more than we need to for a society that is ignoring its greatest expense the poor and old.  And this costs will be the largest in our budget outside of the debt soon as our population ages.

Get them the ability to save wealth and it costs the rest of us less.

Its not about fair.  I hear that a lot and that is not what this about at all.

We are not doing these things because we are a benevolent people.  We are doing these things because they make financial sense.

We just need to overcome our own inner mentality about it and stop thinking someone is taking something we own, when in fact we are saving money by doing this.

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 19, 2016, 06:24:21 AM

Capitalism defeinetly.

Anytime we have any system in its purest form it will eat its own head because the wealth naturally gravitates to a small percent and the more powerful they get the more control they have over the weaker players.

That's human nature, and no amount of laws will change that, only  an armed man can equalize the situation.

QuoteNo, we have seen this repeat several time in just the last 100 years capitalism Communism causes crises and that destroys wealth of those least able to afford to lose it devasting families for decades, which is why we needed Government to step in to correct the trajectory.  Because when things blow up private sector retreats into their bunkers.  Just the opposite of what is needed.

Capitalism is the only system that gives the poorest among us the ability to create wealth.
Govt will always be the tool of elites to run block for the corrupt.

QuoteTo be truly successful we need a mix of both Capialism and Socialism and this mix will ebb and flow based on the economy, only in this way do we get the best result which is spreading wealth to more people while still providing for unlimited growth to those successful business owners.

Bull! Capitalism knows one rule, contractual agreements between two parties. Govt runs interference for one of those in the party.

QuoteBecause at the end of the day the more poor we have the more it costs all of us.  So while we may think we are winning because of our own personal success or that of the circle we travel in, we are actually paying more than we need to for a society that is ignoring its greatest expense the poor and old.  And this costs will be the largest in our budget outside of the debt soon as our population ages.
Get them the ability to save wealth and it costs the rest of us less.

OMG, your youth and inexperience comes through clearly. What you're proclaiming is that only govt has the ability to eliminate the poor, when in fact, govt is the great equalizer, making all parties involved, poor.

QuoteIts not about fair.  I hear that a lot and that is not what this about at all.

We are not doing these things because we are a benevolent people.  We are doing these things because they make financial sense.

We just need to overcome our own inner mentality about it and stop thinking someone is taking something we own, when in fact we are saving money by doing this.

You actually just justified communism.
Get it out of your head that somehow an overbearing govt is a good thing, that stealing the wealth of the struggling entrepreneur is somehow responsible for another's cable TV bill.
Never in history has the poor been richer than Kings of the past, lived a higher quality lifestyle than 90% of the world.
No, we owe nothing for the non producers in this country, EVER!

Quote from: Solar on July 19, 2016, 07:10:02 AM
That's human nature, and no amount of laws will change that, only  an armed man can equalize the situation.
Capitalism is the only system that gives the poorest among us the ability to create wealth.
Govt will always be the tool of elites to run block for the corrupt.
Bull! Capitalism knows one rule, contractual agreements between two parties. Govt runs interference for one of those in the party.

OMG, your youth and inexperience comes through clearly. What you're proclaiming is that only govt has the ability to eliminate the poor, when in fact, govt is the great equalizer, making all parties involved, poor.
You actually just justified communism.
Get it out of your head that somehow an overbearing govt is a good thing, that stealing the wealth of the struggling entrepreneur is somehow responsible for another's cable TV bill.
Never in history has the poor been richer than Kings of the past, lived a higher quality lifestyle than 90% of the world.
No, we owe nothing for the non producers in this country, EVER!

We are all paying for them now.

And whenever this topic comes up the Non Producers come up as well.  No one is talking about paying for people to stay home and watch The View or Kathy whatever their names are nowadays.  There are plenty of good hard working people that are struggling, those are who we are talking about.

What we are suggesting is to make it so everyone can pay for themselves.

The problem with pure capitalism is the belief that everyone has an equal opportunity we know that is not true now many even most people if they work hard can achieve some measure of success.  I was the first member of my family to go to college, all of it on PELL Grants, I have worked hard and am proud of what I have done.  Probably the same with you.  Rightfully so.

But not everyone is meant to do that and we still need to have some way in our system for those people to earn a decent livelihood.  Employees working at lower jobs are really indentured servants while they have the freedom to leave anytime they want we all know that is really not practical for most of them.  They need insurance, and if they leave they would lose the 2-3-4 weeks vacation time they have built up, maybe lose Employer 401k money that is unvested.  They would essentially have to start all over.  They are trapped because that is how the system is created.

What we need is to change the way we pay people in this country.  We need to all all people to buy their insurance from the Exchanges and all Businesses to Opt OUT of health care if they paya 9.5% payroll tax.  This is LESS by 25% to 50% less than Business pays now for premiums.  Get Business OUT of the insurance business!

Then people would be free to move around.  Work 2-3 part time jobs, people would have more flexibility.  Move Social Security into PRIVATE IRA's.  George Bush started the conversation but Congress had no stomach for it, we need to open that up again.

There are a lot of things we can do fairly easily and it does not involved redistributing wealth but it does involve removing some of the chains.

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 19, 2016, 07:25:05 AM
We are all paying for them now.

And whenever this topic comes up the Non Producers come up as well.  No one is talking about paying for people to stay home and watch The View or Kathy whatever their names are nowadays.  There are plenty of good hard working people that are struggling, those are who we are talking about.

Your definition of struggle would be laughed at and envied in virtually every country outside the Western world.

QuoteWhat we are suggesting is to make it so everyone can pay for themselves.

Cut the crap, what you're suggesting is everyone pay for those refusing to work.
Ask yourself, how did America deal with the indigent befor welfare, yet still prosper?

QuoteThe problem with pure capitalism is the belief that everyone has an equal opportunity we know that is not true now many even most people if they work hard can achieve some measure of success.  I was the first member of my family to go to college, all of it on PELL Grants, I have worked hard and am proud of what I have done.  Probably the same with you.  Rightfully so.

Ones failures cannot be blamed on a system that affords one the freedoms to produce their own income.
I challenge you to support that nonsense.

QuoteBut not everyone is meant to do that and we still need to have some way in our system for those people to earn a decent livelihood.  Employees working at lower jobs are really indentured servants while they have the freedom to leave anytime they want we all know that is really not practical for most of them.  They need insurance, and if they leave they would lose the 2-3-4 weeks vacation time they have built up, maybe lose Employer 401k money that is unvested.  They would essentially have to start all over.  They are trapped because that is how the system is created.

What is wrong in your head, that you can't conceive of the idea that no one is obligated to serve in a menial job?
That my friend is their choice, a choice that's easier than actually challenging themselves to get ahead in life. We do not live in an enabling society, and the day that happens, you can kiss your freedom goodbye.

QuoteWhat we need is to change the way we pay people in this country.  We need to all all people to buy their insurance from the Exchanges and all Businesses to Opt OUT of health care if they paya 9.5% payroll tax.  This is LESS by 25% to 50% less than Business pays now for premiums.  Get Business OUT of the insurance business!

Look, you fool no one, you claimed you came to learn, yet all you do is spew commie delusion, granted I refuted every point and our readership can see it as well, so the question remains, how long will you continue this charade?

QuoteThen people would be free to move around.  Work 2-3 part time jobs, people would have more flexibility.  Move Social Security into PRIVATE IRA's.  George Bush started the conversation but Congress had no stomach for it, we need to open that up again.

Care to guess why people are forced to work two or three part time jobs? Here's a hint, the Marxist mandated that business pay more for full time workers.
So much for your socialism, eh?

QuoteThere are a lot of things we can do fairly easily and it does not involved redistributing wealth but it does involve removing some of the chains.

I've seen your examples of free mkt, and no one wants a damn thing to do with it.

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 19, 2016, 05:33:13 AM
nothing is wrong with a business cutting their workforce.


But we need to realize those people getting cut lose a lot of saved wealth they will never get back if we don't have programs to help them pay their bills until they find other income.

Because at the end of the day, if these people lose their homes, their 401ks, their bank accounts WE end up paying for it!

And that costs all of us a lot more.

Life is not fair. We all have setbacks and have a responsibility to take care of ourselves. Find a job in the private sector.

Quote from: Solar on July 19, 2016, 09:03:47 AM
Your definition of struggle would be laughed at and envied in virtually every country outside the Western world.
Cut the crap, what you're suggesting is everyone pay for those refusing to work.
Ask yourself, how did America deal with the indigent befor welfare, yet still prosper?
Ones failures cannot be blamed on a system that affords one the freedoms to produce their own income.
I challenge you to support that nonsense.
What is wrong in your head, that you can't conceive of the idea that no one is obligated to serve in a menial job?
That my friend is their choice, a choice that's easier than actually challenging themselves to get ahead in life. We do not live in an enabling society, and the day that happens, you can kiss your freedom goodbye.
Look, you fool no one, you claimed you came to learn, yet all you do is spew commie delusion, granted I refuted every point and our readership can see it as well, so the question remains, how long will you continue this charade?
Care to guess why people are forced to work two or three part time jobs? Here's a hint, the Marxist mandated that business pay more for full time workers.
So much for your socialism, eh?
I've seen your examples of free mkt, and no one wants a damn thing to do with it.

I like to think we are better than other countries.  It is time we  showed. it.


=======================

"Look, you fool no one, you claimed you came to learn, yet all you do is spew commie delusion, granted I refuted every point and our readership can see it as well, so the question remains, how long will you continue this charade?

========================

Coming here to learn does not mean I sit silently by.  I am participating in the discussion in fact I am responding to questions directly asked of me.  I have been very respectful, I haven't insulted anybody, I have no agenda and I took no offense, but I do have a viewpoint. 

I thought it would be interesting, educational and fun to have a back and forth discussion, but I sense your frustration.  Would you prefer I be silent?

Frankly while I am not offended at the comments, that comment disappointed me.  But if that is what it is, I will respect that.

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 19, 2016, 09:51:09 AM
I like to think we are better than other countries.  It is time we  showed. it.

We have always led by example, by which, lowering our standards of competition to that of  third world status simply means they win, and can point to Capitalism as a failed way of life.
No my friend, we lead by example. Why do you think the US is the most sought out nation in the world? It's not because of failed and fucked up socialist policy!
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Quote"Look, you fool no one, you claimed you came to learn, yet all you do is spew commie delusion, granted I refuted every point and our readership can see it as well, so the question remains, how long will you continue this charade?

========================

Coming here to learn does not mean I sit silently by.  I am participating in the discussion in fact I am responding to questions directly asked of me.  I have been very respectful, I haven't insulted anybody, I have no agenda and I took no offense, but I do have a viewpoint. 

I thought it would be interesting, educational and fun to have a back and forth discussion, but I sense your frustration.  Would you prefer I be silent?

Frankly while I am not offended at the comments, that comment disappointed me.  But if that is what it is, I will respect that.

Cut the transparent bull shit!!!!
Go back through your posts, those are not posts of someone seeking truth, rather a person disguising a communist agenda under the cloak of socialism.
No son, you fool no one, especially not me, I've been doing this for years!

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 19, 2016, 05:33:13 AM
nothing is wrong with a business cutting their workforce.


But we need to realize those people getting cut lose a lot of saved wealth they will never get back if we don't have programs to help them pay their bills until they find other income.

Why don't they just get another job?  Also, why don't they have enough savings to get them to their next job?

Quote
Because at the end of the day, if these people lose their homes, their 401ks, their bank accounts WE end up paying for it!

How?

Quote
And that costs all of us a lot more.

How?

Quote from: Solar on July 19, 2016, 10:58:11 AM
=======================
Cut the transparent bull shit!!!!
Go back through your posts, those are not posts of someone seeking truth, rather a person disguising a communist agenda under the cloak of socialism.
No son, you fool no one, especially not me, I've been doing this for years!

I had actually thought you would have been one of the more interesting posters to communicate with.  I read all of your responses and thought about each of them.  I thought we were having a back and forth discussion.  That is how I do learn.

I just thought this might be a place to communicate with some interesting people with some beliefs different than me (though I also think we agree on a lot too.)  I'm certainly not looking to be a disruption to the community.  But I hope you understand I cannot be a punching bag either.

Like I said, I'm good with whatever you guys decide. 

Quote from: taxed on July 19, 2016, 11:17:14 AM
Why don't they just get another job?  Also, why don't they have enough savings to get them to their next job?
How?
How?

Taxed legitimate questions.

Depending on the situation this could be several ways and may families find themselves hit by several losses at once which makes it catastrophic and they never recover.

As you know during the recession many families lost jobs, homes, needed to take their 401k to pay expenses.  Lives were destroyed families broke up.  I imagine trying to come back from that is almost impossible,  Especially if one is 50 or older.  This means many of these people might live on welfare, with medicaid, and remain so when they retire living in government housing.

All of this we pay for.  And it causes our costs to go up we pay more for health insurance because (partly) hospitals spend billions treating the uninsured or giving free care.

In my mind I would say 50% of Americans are terrible savers.  They retire with nothing and we have to pay for everything.

if we can put in place programs that takes some amount, 3% from pay 1.5% employee and 1.5% employer and puts it into a IRA that cannot be touched for ANY reason except for death, disability or retirement then these people will have money when they retire that will be mandated to be used to pay for their care.

You see, I am all for everyone pulling their weight.  I just don't have confidence in everyone's desire to do the work so I want to force it because I am tired of paying for it.

That's my take.  There has to be a better way than the way we are doing it.

Quote from: Steve,SPHR on July 19, 2016, 11:32:34 AM

Taxed legitimate questions.

Depending on the situation this could be several ways and may families find themselves hit by several losses at once which makes it catastrophic and they never recover.

As you know during the recession many families lost jobs, homes, needed to take their 401k to pay expenses.  Lives were destroyed families broke up.  I imagine trying to come back from that is almost impossible,  Especially if one is 50 or older.  This means many of these people might live on welfare, with medicaid, and remain so when they retire living in government housing.

All of this we pay for.  And it causes our costs to go up we pay more for health insurance because (partly) hospitals spend billions treating the uninsured or giving free care.

In my mind I would say 50% of Americans are terrible savers.  They retire with nothing and we have to pay for everything.

if we can put in place programs that takes some amount, 3% from pay 1.5% employee and 1.5% employer and puts it into a IRA that cannot be touched for ANY reason except for death, disability or retirement then these people will have money when they retire that will be mandated to be used to pay for their care.

You see, I am all for everyone pulling their weight.  I just don't have confidence in everyone's desire to do the work so I want to force it because I am tired of paying for it.

That's my take.  There has to be a better way than the way we are doing it.

Isn't that why FDR started the Social Security scam? Who would administer such a program? The feds? Wouldn't that just grow government instead of shrinking it?

Quote from: tac on July 19, 2016, 11:39:58 AM
Isn't that why FDR started the Social Security scam?

yeah.


I think we need to phase it out it is unsustainable the Government takes all the money anyway.  We need to get rid of it.

And since I believe half the people do not have the discipline to save I would support revisiting private retirement accounts so the people get the money directly.  But don't let them touch it until retirement so they don't squander it.


something like that would also allow families to pass down wealth which many families spend everything and each generation starts from scratch.  This way families that otherwise would have nothing might have something to pass along.


wouldn't cost us any more than now might even be less depending on the rate in place and the government would not have access to the money.


I'd like to see a President that started that conversation up again.