Minimum wage - OK?

Started by debatingguy, November 02, 2011, 01:58:22 PM

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debatingguy

I'm really interested in finance and politics so I'd like to discuss with you whether a minimum wage in jobs makes sense. In news I read about pros and cons so I'm a bit confused now: Is a minimum wage OK and should it be introduced by Germany (leading party plans to do so)?

sources: WSJ | thestreet.com

Dan

I say no. The market sets a price for labor based upon the value that labor creates. All the government can do is distort a market by taking economic value out of the decision making process and replacing it with a political objective instead. This leads to a more inefficient market and this leads to a smaller pie for everyone. At the end of the day a minimum wage makes some people unemployable. Ditto for other populist legislation meant to stick it to the man.

Think about it. If someone isn't willing to pay you $7 per hour for your time then maybe you need to look in the mirror and stop blaming other people. Too many people fall into the intellectual trap of defining this issue by what they feel they are owed and not what they have to offer. If someone needs to be coerced by the government to pay you $7 per hour then maybe you should have studied harder, stayed in school, stayed off drugs or not gotten 39 tatoos. Just a thought.

I have hired a lot of people over the years and I can say without a doubt that 25-30% of the population really doesn't want to work. Yes they have to work. Yes they will apply for a job. But they will put in minimal effort and be unreliable on things like attendance. Is it my fault if I cannot justify keeping these people on the job at a level of pay they desire or is it their fault for not investing in themselves and not having the personal pride to do their job well?
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

Dan

The only sustainable way to increase standards of living is to increase the economic value of the labor of our citizens.

That doesn't mean we let them run up 100K in student loans they will not pay back to get a sociology degree that will earn them 25K per year. That means limiting financial aid to preparation for job fields that will drive our economy in the 21st century. More engineers and nurses and computer programmers and math majors. Fewer art history, sociology and gender studies majors. It means more people going into well paying trades. I know plumbers who make more than MBAs. If my tax dollars are going to subsidize an education then I would rather add another diesel mechanic instead of another lawyer. Get the point.

This is not, however, just a matter of public subsidies. We cannot tax and spend our way into some secular progressive nirvana no matter how much the lefties wish it were so. Everything I have described will be less useful if we do not get more parents taking responsiblity for their children and more children taking responsiblity for their own educations. It can't always be someone else's fault or the fault of ADD or whatever. Without a huge dose of personal responsiblity we are going to have more of the same. A lot of fat, stupid, economically useless adult kids who live at home and feel great about themselves and whine and moan and bitch about how everyone else has screwed them over.
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

Solar

I agree Dan, Unions love the Min wage BS, it gives them the leverage to force wage hikes on employers.
Government has no business dictating what two people agree upon as a fair trade for labor.
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Solar

By the way, welcome to the forum debate guy, from here forward to be known as DG. 8-)
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Dan

The unions had a useful purpose 100 years ago, but now they are nothing more than parisites who all too often kill their hosts. The steel industry. The auto industry. Etc.
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

walkstall

A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Solar

Quote from: walkstall on November 02, 2011, 05:54:45 PM
Well said Dan and Solar!
Every time the Dims pass a min wage increase, we beat this topic to death, so much so the facts are burned into memory.

What libs don't seem to realize, is every time the idiots raise the base wage, the min wage employee winds up paying more for everything, in turn, its actually a pay cut in reality.
The small business winds up having to raise the price of everything just a bit to cover the increased cost across the board.

This topic really gets me pissed off, to the point I want to go to Congress and literally physically pound statistics into their empty fuckin skulls! AAAARRRGGGHHHHH!!!! >:(

OK, I feel better now. :))
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walkstall

Quote from: Solar on November 02, 2011, 07:59:12 PM
Every time the Dims pass a min wage increase, we beat this topic to death, so much so the facts are burned into memory.

What libs don't seem to realize, is every time the idiots raise the base wage, the min wage employee winds up paying more for everything, in turn, its actually a pay cut in reality.
The small business winds up having to raise the price of everything just a bit to cover the increased cost across the board.

This topic really gets me pissed off, to the point I want to go to Congress and literally physically pound statistics into their empty fuckin skulls! AAAARRRGGGHHHHH!!!! >:(

OK, I feel better now. :))

OK, now how do you really feel about min wage. 

After the first year I alway negotiated for my pay.  If I did not like what they would pay me I moved on.  My last job was with the same company for 36 years.  They did not like it when headhunters would call me at work. LOL
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Dan

It never goes well when people apply political solutions to economic problems. That is why teaching self reliance is the greateat kindness you could ever do.
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

taxed

I agree with everything said above this post.
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redlom xof

           
Quote
The unions had a useful purpose 100 years ago, but now they are nothing more than parisites who all too often kill their hosts. The steel industry. The auto industry. Etc.

Those industries were killed off because of 'outsourcing'. It's cheaper to produce product x in China than in America or other first world countries. 

When a lot of these industries were leaving the USA, unions were also becoming much weaker. This is of course the great economic miracle known as " 1980s Reagan America".

"Christians are expected to pacify angry Muslims, Communist brats and homosexual radicals and Mexicans who convinced themselves that they own our land. That tells me the Christians are the better people among brutal and violent beasts."  Yawn - 15th May, 2013

Solar

Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 05:51:17 PM
             
Those industries were killed off because of 'outsourcing'. It's cheaper to produce product x in China than in America or other first world countries. 

When a lot of these industries were leaving the USA, unions were also becoming much weaker. This is of course the great economic miracle known as " 1980s Reagan America".


Reagan signed NAFTA? ::)
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taxed

Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 05:51:17 PM
             
Those industries were killed off because of 'outsourcing'. It's cheaper to produce product x in China than in America or other first world countries. 

When a lot of these industries were leaving the USA, unions were also becoming much weaker. This is of course the great economic miracle known as " 1980s Reagan America".



Wrong.  No one wants to do biz in China.  Your susceptibility to liberal propaganda clouds your ability to think through the problem.
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Solar

Quote from: taxed on November 06, 2011, 06:28:19 PM
Wrong.  No one wants to do biz in China.  Your susceptibility to liberal propaganda clouds your ability to think through the problem.
Even China is beginning to outsource.

Damn Capitalism, creating jobs around the World, raising the living standards of third world countries.
Damn those evil bastards!
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