Minimum wage - OK?

Started by debatingguy, November 02, 2011, 01:58:22 PM

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taxed

Quote from: Solar on November 06, 2011, 06:31:52 PM
Even China is beginning to outsource.

Damn Capitalism, creating jobs around the World, raising the living standards of third world countries.
Damn those evil bastards!

Totally.  The uninformed think businesses want to outsource to China, like it's no biggie.
#PureBlood #TrumpWon

redlom xof

QuoteWrong.  No one wants to do biz in China.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/05/us-investments-china-markets-emerging-markets-fdi.html

Just look at where most products that people own are made. Lots of those products used to be made in America.

Companies did this because it was cheaper. Cheaper labor and less safetey regulations etc.

What I'm saying is a fairly common statement. It's not a radical call.

QuoteTotally.  The uninformed think businesses want to outsource to China, like it's no biggie.

Business isn't thinking about moving to China and other countries, business has moved. This is 2011 not 1958.

QuoteDamn Capitalism, creating jobs around the World, raising the living standards of third world countries.
Damn those evil bastards!

Capitalism is creating jobs. Lots of jobs in 2nd and 3rd world countries. These jobs are extremely low pay and often dangerous but the argument is at least they have a job now. Business of course is booming because of this new found cheap labor.

The down side to this " globalized capitalism " is jobs are leaving the 1st world countries like America. No more car industry in Detroit. No more steel industry in Pittsburg.
"Christians are expected to pacify angry Muslims, Communist brats and homosexual radicals and Mexicans who convinced themselves that they own our land. That tells me the Christians are the better people among brutal and violent beasts."  Yawn - 15th May, 2013

taxed

Why are jobs leaving America, Fox?
#PureBlood #TrumpWon

redlom xof

Because it's more financially sensible to create products where it is cheaper. Where you don't have to worry about workers unions, paying people more than 1 $ a day, government regulations etc.

The solution is to either bring back these industries through government regulations or compete with the labor condititions of China and other countries.

But if it all sounds too complicated you can do what most people do. Pick a side, left or right. If you pick left you have a whole range of shitty options to pick from starting with racism, white people, red state white people, males, uneducated people and white people. If you pick right you have socialism and taxes. ohh and Mexicans.



"Christians are expected to pacify angry Muslims, Communist brats and homosexual radicals and Mexicans who convinced themselves that they own our land. That tells me the Christians are the better people among brutal and violent beasts."  Yawn - 15th May, 2013

Dan

Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 05:51:17 PM
             
Those industries were killed off because of 'outsourcing'. It's cheaper to produce product x in China than in America or other first world countries. 

When a lot of these industries were leaving the USA, unions were also becoming much weaker. This is of course the great economic miracle known as " 1980s Reagan America".

Yes it is cheaper to produce items in China. And yes some of it is due to currency manipulation, but the bulk of it is due to cheap labor and a less intrusive regulatory burden. The former makes labor inputs cheaper and the later makes both labor and energy costs cheaper. But unions driving up the cost of labor beyond anything dictated by market forces or value provided to the company is a strong contributing factor that led to the manufacturing cost disparity between China and the USA being so high.

It's basic cost accounting. Manufacturing has 4 inputs. Labor, energy, materials and overhead. Material costs are more or less the same. Overhead, labor and energy are impacted to various degrees by regulations and unions really, really, really spike up labor costs.

So ask yourself if you want to live in a world where a guy with a high school degree can make 60K per year, get company paid platinum healthcare and a worry free pension and you pay $90 for a knit shirt and $200 for a pair of tennis shoes or do you want to live in a nation that is a fully participating member of a global economy where unskilled labor's pay rate is determined by the value it creates?
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

Dan

Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
Because it's more financially sensible to create products where it is cheaper. Where you don't have to worry about workers unions, paying people more than 1 $ a day, government regulations etc.

So you are not a fan of free markets?

Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
The solution is to either bring back these industries through government regulations or compete with the labor condititions of China and other countries.

It doesn't have to be anything quite so dramatic as all that. There are still transportation costs, duties and tarrifs. But unskilled labor is not the path to the middle class in a global economy. That's a 21st century reality. And any protectionist gimmicks intended to push against this tide will harm our economy and make us less competitive globally.

Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
But if it all sounds too complicated you can do what most people do. Pick a side, left or right. If you pick left you have a whole range of shitty options to pick from starting with racism, white people, red state white people, males, uneducated people and white people. If you pick right you have socialism and taxes. ohh and Mexicans.

Actually I divide it up between the people who want to spend more of what they earn and the people who want to spend more of what other people earn. Personal responsiblity and liberty through greater self reliance vs collectivism and progressive redistribution. I didivde it by the people who wish to enforce the immigration laws on the books vs the people who wish to selectively enforce laws based upon self-serving political calculations. I divide it between people who think big government is the problem and those who think it is the solution.
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

Dan

I will admit that we have done a shitty job of protecting our national interests in this increasingly global economy. We allow China to manipulate it's currency to our disadvantage. We allow China and Russia to steal our intellectual property. We subsidize brazillian oil exploration while stiffling it here with regulations that make little sense. We do not force others to open their markets and give our firms equal access when we open our markets to them.

In a perfect world, one far from the one we actually live in, true free markets would operate by reducing all barriers to trade between nations. In this world, maybe we sell more aircraft and medical equipment and food. Maybe some other country exports raw materials and another manufactures low skilled labor items like shoes. But that isn't what we have and we can blame Bush, Clilnton, Bush and Obama for all making this much worse over the past 20 years.

By everyone doing what they are best suited to do, aggregate wages are higher and product costs are lower and this leads to a higher standard of living not just for us, but for everyone. And while this is nothing like reality, it should be the ideal we strive for and the ideal we hold politicians accountable to when they fail to live up to it.

Too often we subordinate our economic interests for political interests. It's like a bribe. We'll give China a free pass on this or that for some political consideration. And now it's biting us in the ass. Like it or not we cannot back out of the global economy so we all need to just shut up, put on our big boy pants and learn how to play rough.
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

Solar

Why do I get the impression we just helped a kid on his homework assignment? :))
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

Dan

If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

Solar

#24
Quote from: Dan on November 10, 2011, 05:52:20 PM
It's all about the chiren.
He'll either get an A or F, depending on who the teacher voted for, even though were 100% correct, libs simply can't grasp the concept of a free mkt.
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

walkstall

Quote from: Solar on November 10, 2011, 06:17:52 PM
Hell either get an A or F, depending on who the teacher voted for, even though were 100% correct, libs simply can't grasp the concept of a free mkt.

They think "free mkt" is something you work for all your life and the get it free before you do. 
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Dan

Quote from: Solar on November 10, 2011, 06:17:52 PM
He'll either get an A or F, depending on who the teacher voted for, even though were 100% correct, libs simply can't grasp the concept of a free mkt.

But what about tye polar bears? :p
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

Solar

Quote from: taxed on November 06, 2011, 06:34:34 PM
Totally.  The uninformed think businesses want to outsource to China, like it's no biggie.
Sorry Taxed, I just saw this post.
But you're right, business only wants to survive and they would much rather survive with employees that speak English.
To move a company overseas would be a monstrumental undertaking as well as a freakin headache.

Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

walkstall

Quote from: Dan on November 10, 2011, 06:36:51 PM
But what about tye polar bears? :p

As my dad said the first time he tossed me in the water, sink or swim. 
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Dan

Quote from: walkstall on November 10, 2011, 06:45:55 PM

As my dad said the first time he tossed me in the water, sink or swim. 

I'm with you. Polar bears either need to grow some gills or just the heck out of the way. Darwin waits for no man or bear.  :P
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.