Quote from: TowardLiberty on January 27, 2013, 09:14:03 AM
The housing bubble was part of an even larger credit bubble in the derivatives market.

And I have yet to see a single post address the real causal forces that enabled the bubble. Not a word has been said on it.

But much has been said about the CRA and Fannie and Freddie- which are interventions that distorted the housing market, but did not create the bubble as much as they steered it.

Credit bubbles are rooted in monetary manipulations, specifically, credit expansion and artificially low interest rates.

And the shadow banking conduits of repurchase agreements and re-hypothecation, which effectively are the creation of a banking system with no deposits, much larger than the traditional one, is the arena where 21st century credit bubbles play out.

The boom and bust we saw in the housing market was merely a symptom of the boom and bust in leveraged credit "money," or what has been referred to as the "churn."

I came out of the gate, saying that the government has no business manipulating markets. It's really just that simple.

I doesn't matter if it's housing or green energy, republicans or democrats; the government screws up everything it touches. Once the messes are made, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. The entire government needs to be chopped off at the knees and get back to doing the limited work that they're supposed to be doing.

The next incredibly massive mess that's coming is Obamacare. It's going to pretty damned tough pinning that one on a republican.

Quote from: kramarat on January 27, 2013, 09:39:14 AM
I came out of the gate, saying that the government has no business manipulating markets. It's really just that simple.

I doesn't matter if it's housing or green energy, republicans or democrats; the government screws up everything it touches. Once the messes are made, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. The entire government needs to be chopped off at the knees and get back to doing the limited work that they're supposed to be doing.

The next incredibly massive mess that's coming is Obamacare. It's going to pretty damned tough pinning that one on a republican.

Oh, but they already are, they claim it was the right that was in bed with big pharma that caused the increases, when in truth it was placating to union demands, but I digress.
When all is said and done and the country is suffering under socialized medicine, they will claim we tied their hands and weren't able to institute the program the way it was designed.
You know, how communism hasn't really been applied correctly yet.

Quote from: kramarat on January 27, 2013, 09:39:14 AM
I came out of the gate, saying that the government has no business manipulating markets. It's really just that simple.

I doesn't matter if it's housing or green energy, republicans or democrats; the government screws up everything it touches. Once the messes are made, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. The entire government needs to be chopped off at the knees and get back to doing the limited work that they're supposed to be doing.

The next incredibly massive mess that's coming is Obamacare. It's going to pretty damned tough pinning that one on a republican.

They already do, they call it the republican healthcare bill because they claim it is the same as Romneycare.  Even though not one single republican voted for it and Romneycare is a STATE thing, they pin it on the pubs, course if they thought it was going to work, they would be screaming to take credit.

Quote from: Solar on January 27, 2013, 09:28:49 AM
Well said, messing with the free mkt as in manipulation to help an industry succeed over another, always has an equal reaction, as evidenced by the green energy movement over night boom and bust.

Yep- and the student loan bubble is following the same old formula..

Quote from: kramarat on January 27, 2013, 09:39:14 AM
I came out of the gate, saying that the government has no business manipulating markets. It's really just that simple.

I doesn't matter if it's housing or green energy, republicans or democrats; the government screws up everything it touches. Once the messes are made, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. The entire government needs to be chopped off at the knees and get back to doing the limited work that they're supposed to be doing.

The next incredibly massive mess that's coming is Obamacare. It's going to pretty damned tough pinning that one on a republican.

No doubt this is all true.

What I was alluding to in my post is that no one had as of yet mentioned the monetary manipulations that created the credit bubble, as focus was on the interventions and distortions which directed it.

Just making a subtle distinction, but one that has big implications for choosing the right monetary policy going forward- which may mean giving up monetary policy all together.

". That's the real Barney Frank, (in 2003), saying that there is no crisis. I don't know WTF I can do to get you to acknowledge that."

er uh kram, I've never denied Barney Frank saying there is no crisis in 2003.  Like all republicans, you are arguing a false point to avoid arguing the actual facts. You are denying the fact that Bush told barney in 2003 that there was no crisis.  . You are denying that Bush stopped reform in 2003 (read that part again and slowly). You are denying that the Bush Mortgage Bubble didnt start until late 2004. And you are denying the Bush policies that encouraged, protected and funded the Bush Mortgage bubble that bush enacted in 2004. there's that year again.

what did you think about bush stopping reform again in 2005? 

Quote from: TowardLiberty on January 27, 2013, 10:19:31 AM
No doubt this is all true.

What I was alluding to in my post is that no one had as of yet mentioned the monetary manipulations that created the credit bubble, as focus was on the interventions and distortions which directed it.

Just making a subtle distinction, but one that has big implications for choosing the right monetary policy going forward- which may mean giving up monetary policy all together.

Yeah. I wasn't whining, but understanding that the government itself is behind every failure that we have experienced, is something that conservatives, libertarians and , quite frankly, liberals too, should be able to agree on. Arguing about which idiot from which party started it, is pretty pointless. They are all part of one giant, screwed up entity.

Quote from: kramarat on January 27, 2013, 10:32:39 AM
Yeah. I wasn't whining, but understanding that the government itself is behind every failure that we have experienced, is something that conservatives, libertarians and , quite frankly, liberals too, should be able to agree on. Arguing about which idiot from which party started it, is pretty pointless. They are all part of one giant, screwed up entity.

I can't argue with that, not at all!

"Do you believe that home ownership is a right?"

no but kram the only reason you would ask such a silly question is that liars who try to blame everybody but bush for the Bush Mortgage Bubble tell you 'liberals think home ownership is a right". Stop getting your opinion from liars. Seriously stop. Like your most recent 'editorial' for example.

I cant help but notice that your 'editorial' seems to not know that Bush told Barney Frank there was no crisis at Freddie and Fannie.  They also dont seem to not know that Bush stopped reform. And they dont seem to know about Bush's policies that encouraged, protected and funded the Bush Mortgage Bubble.  Why is that?

back to Bush protecting predatory lenders.  we know what all 50 states, banks and the Scotus thought of Bush's Preemption.  (banks seemed to like it). what did the republican controlled House finance committee think?

"Even the normally complacent House Financial Services Committee has weighed in. In
addition to holding OCC oversight hearings, it has passed a bipartisan budget resolution
on a vote of 34-28, stating that the OCC action "may represent an unprecedented
expansion of Federal preemption authority" and "comes without congressional
authorization, and without a corresponding increase in budget resources for the agency."
The committee also pointed out that without a budget increase, the OCC cannot really
expect its modest staff of forty consumer-complaint specialists to both continue their own work and also take over much of the work of an estimated 700 state consumer enforcers and examiners. "In the area of abusive mortgage lending practices alone, State bank supervisory agencies initiated 20,332 investigations in 2003 in response to consumer complaints, which resulted in 4,035 enforcement actions."

http://www.pirg.org/consumer/pdfs/mierzwinskiarticlefinalnysba.pdf

Quote from: TowardLiberty on January 27, 2013, 10:17:23 AM
Yep- and the student loan bubble is following the same old formula..

No doubt, and one that needs to burst.

Why can't people see we as a Nation are a living bubble about to pop?
The world will abandon the dollar in a heart beat when, and I do mean when it does, not if.

Yet it amazes me that we have fools come here and try and blame Bush for all our current evils, when it truth both parties are to blame, for greed and power.
Throwing stick at the fire in an effort to put it out is senseless, we all need to come together to stop this evil machine.

"Arguing about which idiot from which party started it, is pretty pointless. They are all part of one giant, screwed up entity."

sorry, you people had no problem blaming everything on Barney Franks. kram you even posted that silly britt hume 'news cast'.  Now that you can no longer deny that Bush encouraged, protected and funded the bubble AND STOPPED THE REFORM THAT EVERY CON CLAIMED WOULD HAVE PREVENTED THE BUBBLE magic presto, its everybody's fault. 

GSEs increased home ownership rates safely and profitably for 70 years and then bush implements his " aggressive housing agenda " and presto, he destroys the GSEs, the economy of the planet and the financial system.

Why in the Hell did you start a second thread on the same subject?

Walks, feel free to merge these if you will.
Thanks.

"Walks, feel free to merge these if you will.
Thanks."

er uh walks, the Bush Mortgage Bubble is an extremely complicated subject. A subject as involved as Bush literally protecting Predatory lenders kinda deserves its own thread.   think about that statement "Bush protected predatory lenders". boggles the mind. especially if the mind is already boggled with the false narratives and misinformation.

anyhoo, here's what barney frank thought of Bush protecting predatory lenders. He didnt like it. He sponsored a bill to roll back Bush protecting predatory lenders. Now thats a bill editorials should screaming "if only congress passed that bill"


H.R. 5251: Preservation of Federalism in Banking Act
108th Congress: 2003-2004
To clarify the applicability of State law to national banks, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep. Barney Frank [D-MA4]
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h108-5251

Quote from: Vern on January 27, 2013, 10:59:37 AM
"Arguing about which idiot from which party started it, is pretty pointless. They are all part of one giant, screwed up entity."

sorry, you people had no problem blaming everything on Barney Franks. kram you even posted that silly britt hume 'news cast'.  Now that you can no longer deny that Bush encouraged, protected and funded the bubble AND STOPPED THE REFORM THAT EVERY CON CLAIMED WOULD HAVE PREVENTED THE BUBBLE magic presto, its everybody's fault. 

GSEs increased home ownership rates safely and profitably for 70 years and then bush implements his " aggressive housing agenda " and presto, he destroys the GSEs, the economy of the planet and the financial system.

Because it's the truth, I even posted proof where Clinton admitted as such, yet you continue with the myth that somehow it's all Bush's fault which obviously isn't true.
Like all of us here agree, Bush did a lot of stupid things like extreme overspending, something both parties are guilty of.

So until you lose the myopic view of an issue, you won't see the bigger picture, the picture that we are in a bubble brought on by an overbearing Govt and a two party system passing out Govt grants for favors, power and votes.

Or are you really so biased that you don't see it?

I have a feeling you think you are in a pro GOP forum, you would be dead wrong!

Quote from: Vern on January 27, 2013, 11:22:53 AM
"Walks, feel free to merge these if you will.
Thanks."

er uh walks, the Bush Mortgage Bubble is an extremely complicated subject.

Vern WHEN your in over your head, admin likes to keep it in one thread.