The market has continued lower as the days get closer to the deadline for the debt ceiling.  I'm not in the camp of this being so much a problem as we are led to believe.  However, the markets are another matter.  The stock market can be a powerful tool to get the attention of elected officials.   This is why Obama has tried to talk the markets down.  Can this market tank absent a deal?  Will it?  I think we will see a massive sell off and a quick turn around as savvy investors see an opportunity.

Yes he is an ass for using politics to screw the mkt, but if you've noticed, they aren't reacting to what he said.

The stock markets will be just fine.  The debt ceiling will be extended and shouldn't really be the focus of the budget conflict.  In fact this is precisely why the Executive (whose ideology exceeds Keynesianism and perhaps even Marxist Leninism) has succeeded in attaching the debt ceiling with the budget debate.

To provide a clear analogy, let's say you and your wife are reassessing your budget.  Your previous budget included saving up to meet medical expenditures for a breast job.  Failure to meet your previous budget goals and subsequent realization that your previous assessment of your expenditures where grossly underestimated have compelled you to reevaluate your previous budget.  Your wife claims the issue of getting the medical procedure has already been resolved and refuses to address it.  You realize this is no longer a viable alternative and your mindset has obviously changed (a new Congress).  Since the two of you cannot come to an agreement on the budget you have no option but to halt all unnecessary expenditures (including the breast implant procedure) until you can come to agreement on the budget.  But that doesn't mean you stop paying your bills!

The budget and the debt ceiling are two completely separate issues and the Republican's have been duped into making a connection where none exists.  The debt ceiling should be raised to pay for previously incurred debt and uphold the full faith and credit of the US government.  All non-essential government functions should remain suspended until a budget deal can be agreed upon.

Budgets, debt, and debt ceilings are always connected. No entity, public or private can expect to perform an accurate budget analysis without taking any currently existing debt into account.

Nor can entities, public or private, ignore their debts and/or expect to extend and/or increase such debts indefinitely. Failure to both understand and react properly to this fact will eventually lead to economic ruin.

Those who doubt these facts need only to lookup the definition of the term "budget".

The bottom line is that a budget that does not account for debt (which is more accurately defined as a "liability" in financial terms) is not a budget, but rather nothing more than an expenditure list.

I think you missed my point and also failed to tie an increase in the debt ceiling in a manner requiring it be addressed in conjunction with a budget resolution.  Perhaps this was my fault but I thought the analogy clear.

We should raise the debt ceiling (analogous to paying our previously incurred credit card bills) to uphold full faith and credit.  In the mean time, no additional expenditures should be incurred (i.e. lock the credit cards in a drawer so neither husband nor wife may use them) until a budget can be agreed upon.  THE BUDGET WILL TAKE INTO ACCOUNT OUR CURRENT DEBT AND MUST.  But failure to reach a budget resolution does not preclude us from paying our current bills.  We can all agree the bills must get paid even if an agreement on future expenditures hasn't been reached.

I believe it is a mistake for the Republicans to use the debt ceiling as a lever to force budget concessions.  This is a weapon that can't be employed and akin to a suicide bomber.  If they threaten its use I am convinced they will have to back down.  The correct weapon to use is the Constitutional provisions giving the power of the purse to the House.  No budget resolution, no ADDITIONAL expenditures and all non-essential government functions should remain shut down.  You pay your bills when due and keep the utilities on even if you and your spouse have yet to agree to a budget for the upcoming fiscal year.

Again, raise the debt ceiling but keep the government shut down until a suitable reduction in spending can be agreed upon.  This is a weapon which the Republicans can employ successfully.

Quote from: LibDave on October 11, 2013, 08:47:46 AM
The stock markets will be just fine.  The debt ceiling will be extended and shouldn't really be the focus of the budget conflict.  In fact this is precisely why the Executive (whose ideology exceeds Keynesianism and perhaps even Marxist Leninism) has succeeded in attaching the debt ceiling with the budget debate.

To provide a clear analogy, let's say you and your wife are reassessing your budget.  Your previous budget included saving up to meet medical expenditures for a breast job.  Failure to meet your previous budget goals and subsequent realization that your previous assessment of your expenditures where grossly underestimated have compelled you to reevaluate your previous budget.  Your wife claims the issue of getting the medical procedure has already been resolved and refuses to address it.  You realize this is no longer a viable alternative and your mindset has obviously changed (a new Congress).  Since the two of you cannot come to an agreement on the budget you have no option but to halt all unnecessary expenditures (including the breast implant procedure) until you can come to agreement on the budget.  But that doesn't mean you stop paying your bills!

The budget and the debt ceiling are two completely separate issues and the Republican's have been duped into making a connection where none exists.  The debt ceiling should be raised to pay for previously incurred debt and uphold the full faith and credit of the US government.  All non-essential government functions should remain suspended until a budget deal can be agreed upon.

I gotta ask. How big were the new boobs gonna be? I mean, hey, it goes to setting priorities, if you get my meaning.

According to the latest estimates her boobs are going to cost us about 2.7 Trillion $ in ADDITIONAL debt just over the next ten years!  But we all know that estimate is flawed as it will likely be 3 times that much.