"Free trade" is NOT pro-freedom!

About 1960, a document surfaced that listed the Communists' objectives to implement in America.  High on the list was "free trade with Communist countries."

"Free trade" with regimes that use slave labor is NOT true free trade!  It is a rigged game!  We need to maintain sanctions against countries that use slave labor and other forms of cheating.

Milton Friedman was a great economist, but there is one thing (probably the only thing) he got wrong.  He said that a trade deficit is a good deal for us because we get actual goods in exchange for fiat money.

In the short run, it is a good deal.  But in the long run, China gets all the actual wealth – the productive capacity!  America has lost 50,000 factories in the last two decades!  Not jobs!  Factories!  Meanwhile, the goods we buy get consumed, used up.

For about eight years now, China has been the world's largest buyer of machine tools.  For the last few years, China has also been the world's largest MAKER of machine tools!  (Says data from Gardner Publishing, of Cincinnati, publisher of magazines for the machine tool industry.)

China is already making TWICE as many cars as America! China is now producing more concrete than America PLUS Europe PLUS Japan!  Chinese universities are now producing more engineering graduates than American universities are producing IN ALL FIELDS OF STUDY!

I was saying 35 years ago, back when everyone was alarmed about Japan eating our lunch, "If China ever wakes up, it'll be like TEN Japans!"  That is now happening!

One might argue that China depends on us to buy their products.  They can solve that problem in one night!  They could implement a new monetary system that would enable their people to buy their own products.  In fact, they are already starting to phase in exactly that!

Once they have all our industry, they won't need us for anything!  "Free trade with Communist countries" will have achieved its purpose!  China is fast becoming the world's leading country! America is fast becoming irrelevant!

America's trade deficit with China is making Chinese people wealthier.  But much more, it's making their regime stronger!  That backward, mud-dwelling police state is fast becoming a modern, high-tech police state!  And a global power!

If we elect someone like Trump, we'll have a fighting chance.  If we elect someone like "Jeb!" or any other RINO (or any Democrat) America will lose like a Little League team playing the Yankees!

As China gets a wealthier population, they start buying more HIGH END goods and services like medical devices, software, pharmaceuticals, etc.... and that helps Americans in GOOD HIGH END jobs. The more rich trading partners we have the more our large cos can sell.... china has been driving the higher sales of US companies over past few years!!!

Quote from: fishhardnj on August 23, 2015, 02:56:04 PM
As China gets a wealthier population, they start buying more HIGH END goods and services like medical devices, software, pharmaceuticals, etc.... and that helps Americans in GOOD HIGH END jobs. The more rich trading partners we have the more our large cos can sell.... china has been driving the higher sales of US companies over past few years!!!

How much 'high end' is actually manufactured in the USA today? What companies still mfg here versus China? GE moved their imaging division to China years ago, and I doubt that very many Americans were allowed to work there.

US company stocks have been driven by higher sales in BRIC countries - Braz/Russia/India/China - looks at large international pharma companies - half sales are from ex-US. You want low paying textile jobs??? then move to China!!!!

fishhardnj

Quote from: je_freedom on August 18, 2015, 09:20:18 PM
"Free trade" is NOT pro-freedom!

Freedom means freedom for "no" in the first place. Servants and slaves still have freedom for "yes", but they don't have freedom for "no". So, free trade truly means freedom not to trade in the first place.

I hate to tell you folks but there is no such thing as free trade. There can only be fair trade.

Quote from: je_freedom on August 18, 2015, 09:20:18 PM
About 1960, a document surfaced that listed the Communists' objectives to implement in America. 
High on the list was "free trade with Communist countries."

Turns out that document has already been posted on this forum:

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/library/communist-goals-(1963)/

Quote from: je_freedom on August 18, 2015, 09:20:18 PM
"Free trade" is NOT pro-freedom!

About 1960, a document surfaced that listed the Communists' objectives to implement in America.  High on the list was "free trade with Communist countries."

"Free trade" with regimes that use slave labor is NOT true free trade!  It is a rigged game!  We need to maintain sanctions against countries that use slave labor and other forms of cheating.

Milton Friedman was a great economist, but there is one thing (probably the only thing) he got wrong.  He said that a trade deficit is a good deal for us because we get actual goods in exchange for fiat money.

In the short run, it is a good deal.  But in the long run, China gets all the actual wealth – the productive capacity!  America has lost 50,000 factories in the last two decades!  Not jobs!  Factories!  Meanwhile, the goods we buy get consumed, used up.

For about eight years now, China has been the world's largest buyer of machine tools.  For the last few years, China has also been the world's largest MAKER of machine tools!  (Says data from Gardner Publishing, of Cincinnati, publisher of magazines for the machine tool industry.)

China is already making TWICE as many cars as America! China is now producing more concrete than America PLUS Europe PLUS Japan!  Chinese universities are now producing more engineering graduates than American universities are producing IN ALL FIELDS OF STUDY!

I was saying 35 years ago, back when everyone was alarmed about Japan eating our lunch, "If China ever wakes up, it'll be like TEN Japans!"  That is now happening!

One might argue that China depends on us to buy their products.  They can solve that problem in one night!  They could implement a new monetary system that would enable their people to buy their own products.  In fact, they are already starting to phase in exactly that!

Once they have all our industry, they won't need us for anything!  "Free trade with Communist countries" will have achieved its purpose!  China is fast becoming the world's leading country! America is fast becoming irrelevant!

America's trade deficit with China is making Chinese people wealthier.  But much more, it's making their regime stronger!  That backward, mud-dwelling police state is fast becoming a modern, high-tech police state!  And a global power!

If we elect someone like Trump, we'll have a fighting chance.  If we elect someone like "Jeb!" or any other RINO (or any Democrat) America will lose like a Little League team playing the Yankees!

With all due respect je_freedom you couldn't be more mistaken.  You obviously lack a real understanding of both economics and the current situation in regards to free trade between China and the United States.  The fact is, Milton Freidman was spot on in his assessment of Chinese/American trade.  The existence of a persistent trade deficit with China resulting from insane Chinese monetary policy is even more of a gift.  You have obviously been influenced by the pervasive presence of left-wing Keynesian economic fallacies.  Educating you in the nuances of economics is far too great a task to accomplish here.  I will only advise you to educate yourself economically before making such ludicrous statements.

The issue isn't whether US/China trade is a benefit (this is obvious to anyone with a sound understanding of economics).  Free trade benefits BOTH nations.  Any attempt to circumvent free trade is made at the peril of those who attempt to influence the market forces.  There is no such thing as a free lunch.  In fact it isn't the short term affects that benefit the US.  The short term affects are a wash at worst.  It is the long term affects (we have yet to enjoy) which will heavily favor the US.

That said, the real risk involved in US/China trade isn't whether it benefits us, it is whether the reciprocal benefits (and subsequent detriments) to China (a potential adversary) will outweigh the benefits to the US.

Our concern shouldn't be with free US/China trade.  Nor should it be trade with a communist nation exporting slave labor.  That issue is a moral one, not one of economics.  Our issue should be with the theft of wealth through non-economic trade.  Intellectual property rights, cyber crime and similar issues should be our point of contention with China and other nations.  I take it you think illegal immigration in-and-of-itself is also an economic detriment to the US economy?

Quote from: je_freedom on August 18, 2015, 09:20:18 PM
"Free trade" is NOT pro-freedom!

About 1960, a document surfaced that listed the Communists' objectives to implement in America.  High on the list was "free trade with Communist countries."

"Free trade" with regimes that use slave labor is NOT true free trade!  It is a rigged game!  We need to maintain sanctions against countries that use slave labor and other forms of cheating.

Milton Friedman was a great economist, but there is one thing (probably the only thing) he got wrong.  He said that a trade deficit is a good deal for us because we get actual goods in exchange for fiat money.

In the short run, it is a good deal.  But in the long run, China gets all the actual wealth – the productive capacity!  America has lost 50,000 factories in the last two decades!  Not jobs!  Factories!  Meanwhile, the goods we buy get consumed, used up.

For about eight years now, China has been the world's largest buyer of machine tools.  For the last few years, China has also been the world's largest MAKER of machine tools!  (Says data from Gardner Publishing, of Cincinnati, publisher of magazines for the machine tool industry.)

China is already making TWICE as many cars as America! China is now producing more concrete than America PLUS Europe PLUS Japan!  Chinese universities are now producing more engineering graduates than American universities are producing IN ALL FIELDS OF STUDY!

I was saying 35 years ago, back when everyone was alarmed about Japan eating our lunch, "If China ever wakes up, it'll be like TEN Japans!"  That is now happening!

One might argue that China depends on us to buy their products.  They can solve that problem in one night!  They could implement a new monetary system that would enable their people to buy their own products.  In fact, they are already starting to phase in exactly that!

Once they have all our industry, they won't need us for anything!  "Free trade with Communist countries" will have achieved its purpose!  China is fast becoming the world's leading country! America is fast becoming irrelevant!

America's trade deficit with China is making Chinese people wealthier.  But much more, it's making their regime stronger!  That backward, mud-dwelling police state is fast becoming a modern, high-tech police state!  And a global power!

If we elect someone like Trump, we'll have a fighting chance.  If we elect someone like "Jeb!" or any other RINO (or any Democrat) America will lose like a Little League team playing the Yankees!

I hadn't read this till Libdave responded, but your last line exposes one fact, that you drank the NY Libs Koolaid.
You actually think Trump tariffs are good trade policy, something even Trump knows is nothing more than emotive braggadocio.

If Trump was serious about American interests, then why is he having Chinese make his clothes in Africa?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/10/hey-trump-your-swag-is-made-in-africa-here-s-an-ohio-company-that-can-make-it-for-less.html

Quote from: LibDave on February 24, 2016, 10:21:51 PM
The issue isn't whether US/China trade is a benefit (this is obvious to anyone with a sound understanding of economics).  Free trade benefits BOTH nations.  Any attempt to circumvent free trade is made at the peril of those who attempt to influence the market forces.  There is no such thing as a free lunch.  In fact it isn't the short term affects that benefit the US.  The short term affects are a wash at worst.  It is the long term affects (we have yet to enjoy) which will heavily favor the US.

This is what happens when people learn economics from academia
and don't compare it with the real world.

This is what happens when people look only at economic theory
and don't consider other factors, like national security.

Concepts like comparative advantage are valid, in general.
The world economy indeed does work most efficiently when
goods are produced where conditions are best for each activity.

Completely unfettered free trade would be the best policy
IF all countries were governed by libertarian principles.

But many are not.

I've been putting "free trade" in quotation marks because
what's been happening is not genuine free trade.  It's a rigged game.

What's been happening in recent decades is,
the USA is practicing open borders regarding trade,
while other countries are practicing aggressive mercantilism.

And they are eating our lunch.

While the USA is practicing open borders,
these other countries are strategically picking off our industries, one by one.

These other countries protect their own markets with tariffs
and outright bans on importing certain products.
They then use the huge profits they earn at home
to subsidize exports to the USA.


I am not advocating protectionism.  I am calling for the end of
the protectionism that is now being practiced!
Our entire tax system acts as an inverse tariff!
The U.S. government is protecting foreign industry
against American competition!

Some say that we need industry to provide our goods in case of war.
These days, China is reaping the rewards of war without firing a shot!
They are achieving the ultimate victory as defined by Sun Tsu!
At our expense!


The ruling clique's propaganda has been so spectacularly successful that
even many conservatives (perhaps most) believe that
Communist goal number four, as stated in 1963, is actually conservative:

"4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation
and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war."
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/library/communist-goals-(1963)/

Many otherwise conservative leaders absolutely need to get right on this!
If not, China, the Far East, the Arabs, etc. will keep on capturing our industry
and make us completely dependent on them for everything!

If we are to have political independence,
we MUST have economic independence!
Every time we have to depend on foreign supplies,
that's one more hand they have around our throat!
That's more control they have over us!

Here's how successful China has already been at conquering us:
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/financial/china-is-the-world's-leading-manufacturer/

A more in depth discussion of all this can be seen at:
http://www.cpnlive.com/forum/post/1656635
Get Serious With China !!!

The less industry America has, the more likely it becomes that
one day, you will wake up and all your dollars will be worth zero:
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/financial/u-s-dollar-to-collapse/msg303287/#msg303287

Quote from: Solar on February 25, 2016, 05:48:36 AM
I hadn't read this till Libdave responded, but your last line exposes one fact, that you drank the NY Libs Koolaid.
You actually think Trump tariffs are good trade policy, something even Trump knows is nothing more than emotive braggadocio.

If Trump was serious about American interests, then why is he having Chinese make his clothes in Africa?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/10/hey-trump-your-swag-is-made-in-africa-here-s-an-ohio-company-that-can-make-it-for-less.html

I think The Donald made a bad decision in this case.
He sells high-end goods.
I suspect that his profit margin is high enough that
he could have his clothing made in Manhattan
and still make a profit.

He's been thinking of running for President for a few years now.
A smart move would have been to have his goods made in America,
to avoid the bad publicity.

Here is a range of possible ways of funding the federal government:

Tariffs - favors domestic producers. 
            It's how the U.S. gov't was financed for its first 150 years.

Fair Tax - level playing field.  Taxes foreign and domestic goods equally.

Income tax - favors imports.  Imports are not taxed.

VAT - Value Added Tax - retains all the evils of income tax,
            plus adds bookkeeping nightmares.

The ruling clique favors options toward the bottom end of the scale.
They want to employ people who are used to being subjugated.
They want to be supreme rulers over serfs who are as powerless as possible.

Myself, I prefer Fair Tax.
Then, if we find ourselves dependent on foreign sources
for goods essential to national security, we can consider tariffs.

We should also use tariffs as bargaining chips (sanctions)
against countries that practice trade war against us
(as several have been doing for decades.)

Quote from: je_freedom on May 04, 2016, 06:53:09 PM
I think The Donald made a bad decision in this case.
He sells high-end goods.
I suspect that his profit margin is high enough that
he could have his clothing made in Manhattan
and still make a profit.

He's been thinking of running for a few years now.
A smart move would have been to have his goods made in America,
to avoid the bad publicity.

Here is a range of possible ways of funding the federal government:

Tariffs - favors domestic producers. 
It's how the U.S. gov't was financed for its first 150 years.

Consumers will decide with their wallet, not the govt.

Quote from: Solar on May 04, 2016, 07:07:09 PM
Consumers will decide with their wallet, not the govt.

The markets must not run the government and the governments must not run the markets.  Each provides an environment for the other but no more.

Quote from: expat_panama on May 05, 2016, 06:58:11 PM
The markets must not run the government and the governments must not run the markets.  Each provides an environment for the other but no more.

Govts. do not exist without trade.